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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
7168
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Posted - 2014.12.22 16:29:44 -
[31] - Quote
OOhh wait I see what you are saying.
Eve is dying.
Gotcha.
k
"Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á_- _CCP Falcon
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Invisusira
The Rising Stars Tactical Narcotics Team
290
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Posted - 2014.12.22 16:33:18 -
[32] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:OOhh wait I see what you are saying.
Eve is dying.
Gotcha.
k Please go back and re-read my original post.
If you have something which you would like to discuss or debate about it, please post a reply.
I love trolling, elitism, and poking at people to get them riled up more than most, but you're picked the wrong topic to do that in, friend.
EVE Music
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John E Normus
New Order Logistics CODE.
375
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Posted - 2014.12.22 16:35:41 -
[33] - Quote
Going to a rookie system and helping newbros is something everyone should try to do. It's good for the game.
Between Ignorance and Wisdom
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
7179
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Posted - 2014.12.22 16:46:27 -
[34] - Quote
Invisusira wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:OOhh wait I see what you are saying.
Eve is dying.
Gotcha.
k Please go back and re-read my original post. If you have something which you would like to discuss or debate about it, please post a reply. I love trolling, elitism, and poking at people to get them riled up more than most, but you're picked the wrong topic to do that in, friend.
None of which is either what Ive been getting at or my intention.
Im sorry if you find my tone caustic and I apologise if you misconstrued my comments as some kind of interest in small horses.
I accept we have entirely different views on this subject.
"Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á_- _CCP Falcon
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Invisusira
The Rising Stars Tactical Narcotics Team
302
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Posted - 2014.12.22 17:02:08 -
[35] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:None of which is either what Ive been getting at or my intention.
Im sorry if you find my tone caustic and I apologise if you misconstrued my comments as some kind of interest in small horses.
I accept we have entirely different views on this subject. Alright, let's recap.
Your initial reply was "who cares what the perception of EVE Online is?"
My response to that was, "I'm not sure if you're being serious, but perception is absolutely key to this or any new player experience."
You followed up with "If you're not X brave enough or Y smart enough, I don't want you in my game anyway."
My response was, "that's a pretty poor attitude towards new players; what I'm talking about here is providing them with a better understanding of the game at hand so they can make informed decisions."
Every single other post of yours has been a poorly veiled insult with the intent of putting me on the defensive.
If you would like to continue our actual discussion, I am more than happy to.
EVE Music
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
7180
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Posted - 2014.12.22 17:23:48 -
[36] - Quote
Nope.
Youve made it clear how you feel. Anything further said would simply be thrashing pointlessly in your net.
Well played worthy adversary.
My you continue to have no mercy on those you consider your foes.
"Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á_- _CCP Falcon
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Invisusira
The Rising Stars Tactical Narcotics Team
302
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Posted - 2014.12.22 17:27:42 -
[37] - Quote
this must be tumblr because I literally can not even
EVE Music
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
7181
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Posted - 2014.12.22 17:32:54 -
[38] - Quote
You won. I yield.
"Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á_- _CCP Falcon
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
9206
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Posted - 2014.12.22 17:35:42 -
[39] - Quote
Invisusira wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:That's cute, but what relevance does it have to the rest of my point? "Are you really that naive to think that public perception of EVE Online is totally and completely irrelevant?" as hip and cool as it may sound to be like "YEAH **** THOSE GUYS WE DIDNT WANT EM ANYWAY WE EAT WHAT WE LIKE APPLE JACKS *****" ... Like, I get it. There's a certain high you get from being superior to others. But when introducing new potential players to a game, the attitude should be "hopefully they'll get into this too and then we'll have even MORE people to play with and against," not "psh if they're not patient enough to navigate through ****** UIs and poorly explained concepts, they're not good enough to play with me anyway!"
They aren't good enough to play with us. EVE is much easier than when many of us started, if they can't figure out this kinder, gentler EVE, what good are they as competitors or new bros?
One of the best aspects of EVE is that it chases away the kinds of Faint hearted 'gamers' who aren't really interested in a game (aka a challenge full of obstacles to be overcome) but who instead want and hand-jobesque ego boosting session of "you are a hero" that most modern video games deliver.
We aren't superior because we play a spaceship video game. We're superior (over the people you would coddle as if they are not adults responsible for their own enjoyment) because we came into a game about people where those people were not welcoming and we STILL kicked the door in and said "too bad, I'm up in here now". It's not our fault that some humans being are too squishy in the mind-parts to be able to survive a video game experience (where nothing real is at stake, unlike real life) without breaking. |
Invisusira
The Rising Stars Tactical Narcotics Team
302
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Posted - 2014.12.22 17:37:10 -
[40] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:You won. I yield. Ah, but therein lies the fallacy of what you think my argument is, friend. Where you see these forums as something to be won or lost, I see them only as the grounds for improvement of our community and the game that unites us through thought, discussion, and searing, bitter flame wars.
The only victor or loser in this fight is our community as a whole.
EVE Music
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
9208
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Posted - 2014.12.22 17:37:39 -
[41] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:You won. I yield.
Tag me Ramona, i'll take her down!!! TAG ME!!!!
Sorry, watched wrestling last night because I left the remote in the kitchen and who wants to get up and walk 15 steps on a Sunday..... And to think some folks believe it's all fake. IT'S REAL!
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
18743
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Posted - 2014.12.22 17:38:24 -
[42] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:You won. I yield.
Quitter.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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Invisusira
The Rising Stars Tactical Narcotics Team
302
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Posted - 2014.12.22 17:42:18 -
[43] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:They aren't good enough to play with us. EVE is much easier than when many of us started, if they can't figure out this kinder, gentler EVE, what good are they as competitors or new bros?
One of the best aspects of EVE is that it chases away the kinds of Faint hearted 'gamers' who aren't really interested in a game (aka a challenge full of obstacles to be overcome) but who instead want and hand-jobesque ego boosting session of "you are a hero" that most modern video games deliver.
We aren't superior because we play a spaceship video game. We're superior (over the people you would coddle as if they are not adults responsible for their own enjoyment) because we came into a game about people where those people were not welcoming and we STILL kicked the door in and said "too bad, I'm up in here now". It's not our fault that some humans being are too squishy in the mind-parts to be able to survive a video game experience (where nothing real is at stake, unlike real life) without breaking. While perhaps misguided, this is an opinion I completely respect. EVE has long been toted as one of the more difficult games to comprehend and excel at, and I never want that to change.
What I am talking about here is less about making the game "easier" and more about making the game "easier to comprehend." Concepts that may be at least moderately understood by a relatively new pilot like corporate infrastructure, sovereignty, and security status are totally and completely befuddling to a fresh capsuleer. These are things that the game should do a better job of teaching us about.
I don't want the game to be easier. I just want new players to have a better toolset with which to understand how things work.
EVE Music
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Invisusira
The Rising Stars Tactical Narcotics Team
306
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Posted - 2014.12.22 18:06:03 -
[44] - Quote
Again, using myself as an example - I wasn't prepared to stop playing after my trial because the game was difficult, but rather because I was having difficulty figuring out what all I could do, and what to do next.
Being invited to a corp and being given even the smallest glimpse into what all was out there made all the difference for me.
EVE Music
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Ashlar Maidstone
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
143
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Posted - 2014.12.22 19:10:41 -
[45] - Quote
Invisusira wrote:Again, using myself as an example - I wasn't prepared to stop playing after my trial because the game was difficult, but rather because I was having difficulty figuring out what all I could do, and what to do next.
Being invited to a corp and being given even the smallest glimpse into what all was out there made all the difference for me.
Invi, I too was totally unprepared but over time and experience I too delve right into all that Eve has to offer. I think as far as the NPE is concerned that yes, something should be done to help new players, even inviting them to corps like Eve-Uni for example. I know that they have programs I'm sure that helps the new players to grow into Eve, and if I was called on to help advise a new player I do it in a heartbeat.
There's a lot of room for growth and to ensure that the NPE is well taken in the direction it needs to go, but I am sure that even tho NPC corps are ok to a degree for starting, a new player really needs to get in a corp where they can receive help they need.
Sure, when I started I was in a mining corp, but over time and learning on my own a lot of what I know now I can in some respects help newbies to get a proper skill que and proper ships to help them on their way. I know it sounds like a lot for some but for those of us who have experience, we should endeavor to help the new players as much as we can in every way possible.
In addition, trial accounts especially really need help AND encouragement from us to help them in setting them up in a way that they can enjoy a good old fashioned fight, or exploring, building a ship from minerals they can be proud of to call their own. Anything we can do to help them over come the barriers and fears they have will I'm sure over time will help retain them in the long run.
CCP gave us the TOOLS we can and should use, and hopefully make Eveonline even better in the future. |
Yarda Black
Militaris Industries Northern Coalition.
483
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Posted - 2014.12.22 20:07:07 -
[46] - Quote
Playing videogames is a hobby of mine. Since that mostly involves playing EVE....
Fair enuff: One of my hobby's in life is playing EVE online.
I'm unlikely to ever agree about the NPE. Figuring this game out was one of the most rewarding things and kept me going for weeks. Admitted, I'm "officially" an intelligent guy. But EVE isn't rocket science. There's also plenty of people willing to show you stuff. The difference between a yellow can and a white one for example. I was "PvP-ing" on day 2. Didn't even have to ask.
You have to experiment abit imho. Same way you learn what ship is good for a certain task. Join corps, see what happens etc. That shouldn't have to be mandatory. All a person needs is a bit of perseverance.
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Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
235
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Posted - 2014.12.22 20:31:48 -
[47] - Quote
Joining a corp is suboptimal from a mechanics standpoint. It exposes you to war decs and awoxes with no benefit over a solo corp.
I advise players to join good mail lists and chat channels unless they want to go to low or null(or war dec people). This provides the benefits of a corp without the downsides. |
Invisusira
The Rising Stars Tactical Narcotics Team
306
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Posted - 2014.12.22 20:40:28 -
[48] - Quote
Tear Jar wrote:Joining a corp is suboptimal from a mechanics standpoint. It exposes you to war decs and awoxes with no benefit over a solo corp.
I advise players to join good mail lists and chat channels unless they want to go to low or null(or war dec people). This provides the benefits of a corp without the downsides. That's a good point. War decs take a TON of fun out of the game for new players who join corps. Not really sure what the solution to that would be.
EVE Music
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Ashlar Maidstone
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
144
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Posted - 2014.12.22 21:24:37 -
[49] - Quote
Invisusira wrote:Tear Jar wrote:Joining a corp is suboptimal from a mechanics standpoint. It exposes you to war decs and awoxes with no benefit over a solo corp.
I advise players to join good mail lists and chat channels unless they want to go to low or null(or war dec people). This provides the benefits of a corp without the downsides. That's a good point. War decs take a TON of fun out of the game for new players who join corps. Not really sure what the solution to that would be.
That's a great point too. Being wardecced is no fun, especially for a new player just joining a corp. and getting podded the first time on the undock, we all been there and believe me it's quite the eye opener, and yet some thrive on the excitement of experiencing PvP for the first time and go WOW! I know it's difficult but we do what we can to survive and go onwards.
But, it takes support from fellow corpmates, it takes encouragment to press forward and go on, every time I undock it's always that feeling of wondering whats outside a station, that not knowing or the unknown we know so well. |
Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
338
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Posted - 2014.12.22 22:44:39 -
[50] - Quote
Tear Jar wrote:Joining a corp is suboptimal from a mechanics standpoint. It exposes you to war decs and awoxes with no benefit over a solo corp.
I advise players to join good mail lists and chat channels unless they want to go to low or null(or war dec people). This provides the benefits of a corp without the downsides.
When I first joined, I joined a corp with 5 other guys I knew and we had a blast. That made the new game experience amazing fun. We did high sec roams, just looking around at different systems. We shot each other and chased each other around. We ventured into low sec together (and separately). We met up with other like minded folk and ran mining ops and gate camps and 3 of the 5 are still playing Eve together and the other 2 pop in occasionally to join us for something fun.
I tend to think that the NPE was designed to allow a new player to gain some basics before joining up with other people who could be trusted. Trust is an expensive commodity in Eve Online. |
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
153
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Posted - 2014.12.23 03:26:44 -
[51] - Quote
So the whole thing with "EVE is challenging, EVE takes effort, didn't want those newbies anyways" should only be predicated on the new player actually knowing what EVE is all about.
There are a lot of players that just pick up the game, barely knowing what it is or what to do. They get bored thinking it's just mining, L2s and dying to gatecamps and then move on to something else.
I don't think that makes them unworthy. They are just ignorant. They need to be shown the ropes. EVE is just a random game and gaming is just a random hobby in their lives. Don't expect them to dedicate hours researching the game's potential when they are bored from their initial impressions.
Now If they cry at their losses or whine that it's too much effort, once they are shown the ropes, then they are unworthy.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
238
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Posted - 2014.12.23 04:28:42 -
[52] - Quote
Invisusira wrote:Tear Jar wrote:Joining a corp is suboptimal from a mechanics standpoint. It exposes you to war decs and awoxes with no benefit over a solo corp.
I advise players to join good mail lists and chat channels unless they want to go to low or null(or war dec people). This provides the benefits of a corp without the downsides. That's a good point. War decs take a TON of fun out of the game for new players who join corps. Not really sure what the solution to that would be.
In the past I have suggested a "social" corporation that is immune to wardecs but can't own in structures and doesn't get a fleet hangar. This way new people who just want to group up with others have an obvious means to do so.
This would also allow real corps to have better risks and benefits as they wouldn't be trying to act as a social club too. |
Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
238
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Posted - 2014.12.23 04:33:11 -
[53] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Tear Jar wrote:Joining a corp is suboptimal from a mechanics standpoint. It exposes you to war decs and awoxes with no benefit over a solo corp.
I advise players to join good mail lists and chat channels unless they want to go to low or null(or war dec people). This provides the benefits of a corp without the downsides. When I first joined, I joined a corp with 5 other guys I knew and we had a blast. That made the new game experience amazing fun. We did high sec roams, just looking around at different systems. We shot each other and chased each other around. We ventured into low sec together (and separately). We met up with other like minded folk and ran mining ops and gate camps and 3 of the 5 are still playing Eve together and the other 2 pop in occasionally to join us for something fun. I tend to think that the NPE was designed to allow a new player to gain some basics before joining up with other people who could be trusted. Trust is an expensive commodity in Eve Online.
You could have done all of that through a channel and using a mail list to organized meetups.
Of course humans are tribal creatures and love being part of a tribe. The corp name and corp symbol are great for that, so the optimal way to play the game is much less fun for many players. |
Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
339
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Posted - 2014.12.23 06:03:05 -
[54] - Quote
Tear Jar wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:Tear Jar wrote:Joining a corp is suboptimal from a mechanics standpoint. It exposes you to war decs and awoxes with no benefit over a solo corp.
I advise players to join good mail lists and chat channels unless they want to go to low or null(or war dec people). This provides the benefits of a corp without the downsides. When I first joined, I joined a corp with 5 other guys I knew and we had a blast. That made the new game experience amazing fun. We did high sec roams, just looking around at different systems. We shot each other and chased each other around. We ventured into low sec together (and separately). We met up with other like minded folk and ran mining ops and gate camps and 3 of the 5 are still playing Eve together and the other 2 pop in occasionally to join us for something fun. I tend to think that the NPE was designed to allow a new player to gain some basics before joining up with other people who could be trusted. Trust is an expensive commodity in Eve Online. You could have done all of that through a channel and using a mail list to organized meetups. Of course humans are tribal creatures and love being part of a tribe. The corp name and corp symbol are great for that, so the optimal way to play the game is much less fun for many players.
An in game channel and a mailing list is sub optimal to every human experience compared to being together with other humans in one location sharing an experience.
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Laken Starr
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
56
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Posted - 2014.12.23 06:53:00 -
[55] - Quote
I think there's something to be said about making joining a player corp a bullet point of the NPE. Pretty much everyone I know who's tried Eve and left before the end of their trial was in the NPC starter corp flying solo. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5899
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Posted - 2014.12.23 07:05:19 -
[56] - Quote
Invisusira wrote:One of the biggest things EVE has going for it is its massive playerbase, filled with tons of new-player friendly corps that love giving new players a place to find their footing.
One of the biggest things EVE has going against it is the perception that it is a dumb stupid boring game that's really hard to learn and once you do, it's a second job. Spreadsheets in space, etc.
Corporations are a major catch-22 because they work towards both of these points.
There is no doubt that, in EVE online, your average corp deals with far more logistics and management issues - both in game and out - than your average clan or guild from most other games. However, there is this massive perception, this negative stigma, that surrounds it. (The fact that our guilds are called "corporations" does not help this.) The NPE needs to do a better job of de-mystifying this. Stating somewhere that the word "corporation" need not be feared, that it is more or less analogous to "guild" would be a good idea. A new, friendlier, easier to find Corporation Classifieds of sort would be great, both for new players and existing corps alike.
Interaction with corporations, perhaps even joining one, should be part of the NPE. In a game fueled by player created content, this is how many new players will decide to stay or leave.
Me personally? I was having a pretty good time, but getting bored and about to finish my two-week trial. Would have signed off for good if I hadn't been recruited by a corp in my last few days. They introduced me to PvP; I joined a gatecamp that weekend and it was the most fun I'd ever had in the game. That was three years ago now, and I'm still with em.
I'm not saying we need to change the name of our space-guilds. But the stigma around "corporations" is not at all what they really are, and I think it would do wonders for the NPE to include proper understanding of the interaction with them.
Look. All we have to do is have NPC corps wardec each other on occasion.
Do this and a lot of things will change.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Dax Danek
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.12.23 08:16:08 -
[57] - Quote
Laken Starr wrote:I think there's something to be said about making joining a player corp a bullet point of the NPE. Pretty much everyone I know who's tried Eve and left before the end of their trial was in the NPC starter corp flying solo.
I don't think the issue is that new players fail to understand that joining a corp is an essential part of the game. Many see that quite clearly and it just turns them off.
Not necessarily because they don't like being part of an organization in games like this, but because of the terms on which the arrangement must be accepted by virtue of the game's design.
Prostrating yourself at the feet of a group of strangers instead of just making friends through a game's natural activities isn't for everyone, and unfortunately this game's natural activities are very limited without prostrating yourself at the feet of a group of strangers.
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Yzen Danek
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.12.23 17:02:36 -
[58] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Invisusira wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:That's cute, but what relevance does it have to the rest of my point? "Are you really that naive to think that public perception of EVE Online is totally and completely irrelevant?" as hip and cool as it may sound to be like "YEAH **** THOSE GUYS WE DIDNT WANT EM ANYWAY WE EAT WHAT WE LIKE APPLE JACKS *****" ... Like, I get it. There's a certain high you get from being superior to others. But when introducing new potential players to a game, the attitude should be "hopefully they'll get into this too and then we'll have even MORE people to play with and against," not "psh if they're not patient enough to navigate through ****** UIs and poorly explained concepts, they're not good enough to play with me anyway!" They aren't good enough to play with us. EVE is much easier than when many of us started, if they can't figure out this kinder, gentler EVE, what good are they as competitors or new bros? One of the best aspects of EVE is that it chases away the kinds of Faint hearted 'gamers' who aren't really interested in a game (aka a challenge full of obstacles to be overcome) but who instead want and hand-jobesque ego boosting session of "you are a hero" that most modern video games deliver. We aren't superior because we play a spaceship video game. We're superior (over the people you would coddle as if they are not adults responsible for their own enjoyment) because we came into a game about people where those people were not welcoming and we STILL kicked the door in and said "too bad, I'm up in here now". It's not our fault that some humans being are too squishy in the mind-parts to be able to survive a video game experience (where nothing real is at stake, unlike real life) without breaking.
"Other people don't like what I like; they must be inferior."
That's all your post says.
To think that people who choose not to play EVE do so because they are weak or inferior gamers compared to you is the ultimate in self-congratulation. It's pretty warped.
I'm finding this to be a pretty common attitude around here.
IRL I'm a whitewater kayaker, mountaineer, and backcountry skiier and I encounter less elitism and self-perceived badassery among that crowd who literally risk their lives everyday in the name of entertainment than I do on this site. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
162
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Posted - 2014.12.23 22:36:53 -
[59] - Quote
Yzen Danek wrote: "Other people don't like what I like; they must be inferior."
That's all your post says.
To think that people who choose not to play EVE do so because they are weak or inferior gamers compared to you is the ultimate in self-congratulation. It's pretty warped.
I'm finding this to be a pretty common attitude around here.
IRL I'm a whitewater kayaker, mountaineer, and backcountry skier and I encounter less elitism and self-perceived badassery among that community who literally risk their lives everyday in the name of entertainment than I do on this site.
I actually find the real badasses on here don't share this viewpoint. The guys who can solo half a dozen dudes or the guys who lead strong alliances in-game. They are actually quite humble especially towards newer players. Not all, of course .
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Darth Schweinebacke
Jita Liberum
34
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Posted - 2014.12.23 23:36:47 -
[60] - Quote
Invisusira wrote:Tear Jar wrote:Joining a corp is suboptimal from a mechanics standpoint. It exposes you to war decs and awoxes with no benefit over a solo corp.
I advise players to join good mail lists and chat channels unless they want to go to low or null(or war dec people). This provides the benefits of a corp without the downsides. That's a good point. War decs take a TON of fun out of the game for new players who join corps. Not really sure what the solution to that would be.
No it is a terrible point.
Our corporation is recruiting players who just finished their career missions and we drop them right into the world of wardecs. We are based in Amarr and we explain to them how to use insta undock points to get away.
We supply new players with free frigattes to go PvPing with and take them into more organised fleets with us. We have not been going for long with this corp, and surely the new players still die a lot in their first days. But we do our best to give them advice on how to survive under that kind of conditions, right before the start, before they get used to the thought of ever being "safe" in eve and so far they all seem to be learning.
Sure we take a lot of losses, but that is to be expected when you recruit 2 days old pilots. The problem with many corps just is that they recruit people (also new people) and do not support them or teach them anything.
Especially PvE corps suffer from that a lot where people just get trained to farm ISK and at some point the corp gets decced and people start losing their expansive toys, because they never learned how to survive under these conditions or to work as a team. As most of those activites do not reaquire a lot of teamwork.
Also, yes they will not make lot-¦s of ISK in their first months and will not be able to easily move through high sec in a corp that is wardecced 24/7. But they gain something far more valueable. They learn to work as a team and how to defend themselves or how to prevent getting killed.
short version: Not wars are the problem, the problem are corps where people do not learn how to defend themselves and are raised to be nothing more than ISK grinders. |
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