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skandra Kishunuba
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2014.12.25 20:46:57 -
[1] - Quote
I first started playing Eve due to it being recommended to me by a friend.
One of the big selling points was the sandbox element of the game, being free to do a multitude of different things without being hemmed in too far.
Since I started playing, it seems to me that this sandbox element has been gradually eroded by small steps.
Things like tying in ships to particular, specialist roles, thus forcing pilots to be limited in their choice of ships they can fly effectively for a particular role.
Another example is the recent changes made to the UI, where before the changes it was possible to personalise elements of it to make for a more individual experience. Now we're limited to predefined schemes that can't be personalised and the experience is just more generic.
Is the sandbox slowly turning in to a quicksand box where freedom of choice is being stifled? |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7207
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Posted - 2014.12.25 20:48:51 -
[2] - Quote
skandra Kishunuba wrote:
Is the sandbox slowly turning in to a quicksand box where freedom of choice is being stifled?
No. Not really.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
7946
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Posted - 2014.12.25 20:50:09 -
[3] - Quote
No.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28557
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Posted - 2014.12.25 20:50:21 -
[4] - Quote
Yes and yes.
The UI is being handled improperly with an emphasis on Form over Function.
The specialization has always been too harsh regarding prerequisites and barrier to entry.
EVE was a solid idea back in 2001, and what you're seeing is an unwillingness / inability to explore away from that.
damn fanboys. if you can't see ways EVE can improve, you shouldn't be talking in threads like this.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
2917
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Posted - 2014.12.25 20:52:15 -
[5] - Quote
It's an hourglass, the sand that falls out of your box falls right into my box.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Sol Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
932
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Posted - 2014.12.25 21:11:40 -
[6] - Quote
It's not "elementy of a sandbox". This isn't ArcheAge.
EVE ONLINE symbolises the very definitions of MMO and sandbox.
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Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
42320
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Posted - 2014.12.25 21:13:21 -
[7] - Quote
+1 for this
Bacon makes us stronger
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Arla Sarain
216
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Posted - 2014.12.25 21:22:11 -
[8] - Quote
skandra Kishunuba wrote:I first started playing Eve due to it being recommended to me by a friend.
One of the big selling points was the sandbox element of the game, being free to do a multitude of different things without being hemmed in too far.
Since I started playing, it seems to me that this sandbox element has been gradually eroded by small steps.
Things like tying in ships to particular, specialist roles, thus forcing pilots to be limited in their choice of ships they can fly effectively for a particular role.
Another example is the recent changes made to the UI, where before the changes it was possible to personalise elements of it to make for a more individual experience. Now we're limited to predefined schemes that can't be personalised and the experience is just more generic.
Is the sandbox slowly turning in to a quicksand box where freedom of choice is being stifled? I don't think you are wrong.
But I doubt a true, absolute sandbox apart from Garry's Mod exists.
I think the sandbox elements people refer to is the inexplicit roles/professions/things that you can engage in.
If you want to be a pirate or a trader, you don't go to the character creator menu and pick a class. You just log in and do/be those things by applying principles that define those roles. The sandbox is in how we interact with each other. If you want to PvP there is no matchmaking system holding you back as you wait to get a Red or a Blue name so that you can fight another dude with a Blue or a Red name.
Naturally, additional steps are added.
I do agree that the ships are extremely limiting, which makes EVE online require a proactive mindset rather than a reactive, which in turn makes it unappealing to most people. Part of the reason is the mandate to make players work together and complement each other.
Ironic, considering dumb things like drone assist exist and the meta shifting to ships of similar types and hulls for ex. Tengu and Ishtar fleets. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji.
1846
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Posted - 2014.12.25 21:51:18 -
[9] - Quote
Stealth "Eve is dying" thread?
Also I prefer to compare EVE to a dirty cat litterbox. |
RoAnnon
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
24617
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Posted - 2014.12.25 22:23:33 -
[10] - Quote
In what way does being able to change the color scheme of your UI have anything whatsoever to do with the sandbox?!?
So, you're a bounty hunter.
No, that ain't it at all.
Then what are you?
I'm a bounty hunter.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
2923
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Posted - 2014.12.25 22:26:32 -
[11] - Quote
RoAnnon wrote:In what way does being able to change the color scheme of your UI have anything whatsoever to do with the sandbox?!? Hack enemy pc, change ui to pink, win battle.
L2Meta
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Serene Repose
1888
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Posted - 2014.12.25 22:34:19 -
[12] - Quote
Another clever one, I see.
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Noriko Mai
1755
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Posted - 2014.12.25 22:39:58 -
[13] - Quote
EVE is dieing because there is no dak opaque theme!!!!111"!!! |
Yarda Black
Militaris Industries Northern Coalition.
495
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Posted - 2014.12.25 23:25:26 -
[14] - Quote
skandra Kishunuba wrote:Things like tying in ships to particular, specialist roles, thus forcing pilots to be limited in their choice of ships they can fly effectively for a particular role.
Agreed. I posted my annoyance about it a year ago. I think it will get worse.
Other than that, I still think EVE is a sandbox.
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Vyl Vit
1006
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Posted - 2014.12.26 02:20:23 -
[15] - Quote
How has this thread not been locked yet? I shall take this opportunity to say:
Your metaphor sucks, just like quicksand. I guess it was difficult to resist - sandbox ... quick...nevermind. It hurt bad enough the first time. Unless of course you consider that quicksand keeps pulling you back in, and in that regard I don't see how that's so hyper-critical an observation, how ever unintentional.
The deeper point this raises is the psychological question having to do with the need to publicly declare one doesn't like something, as if the one declaring amounts to enough for that declaration to be of note. Unfortunately for us all, none of us measure up to that standard where our opinions have become more than just like a-holes (since everybody has one.)
Even so, thanks for sharing whatever it is you thought you shared, OP. It was real, man.
Anyone with any sense has already left town.
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skandra Kishunuba
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2014.12.26 02:21:44 -
[16] - Quote
RoAnnon wrote:In what way does being able to change the color scheme of your UI have anything whatsoever to do with the sandbox?!?
I suppose that depends on whether one considers the primary point of input and interaction of players with the game is of importance or not.
The term 'sandbox' refers to freedom of choice. Being able to personalise elements of the game adds to freedom of choice.
Being funnelled into a narrow set of parameters stifles freedom of choice.
In some ways, it could be analogous to governments acting in a 'nanny state' fashion, funnelling people into narrow parameters for some perceived 'greater good'.
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skandra Kishunuba
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2014.12.26 02:36:59 -
[17] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:How has this thread not been locked yet? I shall take this opportunity to say:
Your metaphor sucks, just like quicksand. I guess it was difficult to resist - sandbox ... quick...nevermind. It hurt bad enough the first time. Unless of course you consider that quicksand keeps pulling you back in, and in that regard I don't see how that's so hyper-critical an observation, how ever unintentional.
The deeper point this raises is the psychological question having to do with the need to publicly declare one doesn't like something, as if the one declaring amounts to enough for that declaration to be of note. Unfortunately for us all, none of us measure up to that standard where our opinions have become more than just like a-holes (since everybody has one.)
Even so, thanks for sharing whatever it is you thought you shared, OP. It was real, man.
Public 'declarations' become public debate when other parties interact and provide further input.
I see no issue with public debate. Indeed, public debate can sometimes result in positive outcomes, although this often depends on whether those that do engage choose to merely respond with their own public declarations, choose to employ derision as a tool, or maybe even just sit back, say nothing and hope public declarations fades into public apathy and thus, implied public compliance. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28825
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Posted - 2014.12.26 02:43:21 -
[18] - Quote
you should have stopped at "being funneled into a narrow..."
anyway. The idea of balance being broken is still valid, but for low-level players. Which means the game favors the older players. there's a nuance of skill prerequisites that is lost on most people. By lowering prerequisites, you're removing those artificial blocks that might seem worthwhile just for being there... but they're just artificial blocks.
The proof of this is in the fact that reducing prerequisites doesn't change the performance of the ship at any given skill level.
A multiplayer game is balanced if a reasonably large number of options available to the player are viable--especially, but not limited to, during high-level play by expert players. --Sirlin, December 2001
also see http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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skandra Kishunuba
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2014.12.26 02:48:34 -
[19] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:you should have stopped at "being funneled into a narrow..." anyway. The idea of balance being broken is still valid, but for low-level players. Which means the game favors the older players. there's a nuance of skill prerequisites that is lost on most people. By lowering prerequisites, you're removing those artificial blocks that might seem worthwhile just for being there... but they're just artificial blocks. The proof of this is in the fact that reducing prerequisites doesn't change the performance of the ship at any given skill level. A multiplayer game is balanced if a reasonably large number of options available to the player are viable--especially, but not limited to, during high-level play by expert players. -- Sirlin, December 2001also see http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win
Thank you.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28825
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Posted - 2014.12.26 02:52:52 -
[20] - Quote
you're welcome. here's another.
http://critical-gaming.com/critical-glossary/#
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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skandra Kishunuba
Perkone Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2014.12.26 03:07:33 -
[21] - Quote
Also very interesting.
Thanks again.
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Vapor Ventrillian
The Scope Gallente Federation
109
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Posted - 2014.12.26 03:14:02 -
[22] - Quote
I think it really a steady and expected erosion
because this is what happens when a lot of people gather together
the few force ccp to ruin it for the many
*tin hat* and there is probably crazies who live for the chance to destroy peoples enjoyment as the have no emotion what so ever and enrages them
*likes the tin hat look...so shiny*
The Evil Overlord of Scope, self elected as all good overlords should be
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28828
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Posted - 2014.12.26 03:15:48 -
[23] - Quote
If you need prerequisites to keep a rookie out of a HAC I feel bad for you son
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
651
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Posted - 2014.12.26 03:54:48 -
[24] - Quote
This has done so much damage to the gaming industry.
The basic precept that has spread is that you can have social rules in a game and then you have people who break those rules to win and that is fine. Effectively it has encouraged the exploitation of poor game design and weaknesses in the code to player advantage to the point that players come to rely on it and will cry, whine and quit if you fix it.
There are other goals in games.
Example: In the days of Quake I would do things like see the top scoring guy run along a ledge and into a tunnel, drop a rocket at my feet, launch into the air, shoot and kill him then drop to my death. I timed telefrags. I would be on low health spray people in a room with nails and run into the water to electrocute us all.
I did not play to win and I still had as much fun as anyone. In fact, more people had fun because they didn't keep dying to the same guy over and over and they got to see him die sometimes for some vicarious revenge.
I feel a real sandbox gives you the freedom to fail. It gives you the freedom to set your own goals. It gives everyone an equal amount of sand to make sand castles or throw their sand at someone else.
I like the skill requirements. Love them. It is a filter for the impatient, which is often the immature. I hate interceptors and destroyers, one is a free ticket to skip past a control mechanism for little cost and time and the other is far too much damage for little cost and effort.
I like games with Darwin steps. Anarchy Online had the most simple Darwin step. I would sometimes log on and just stand in the teleport tower of the newbie area. People would come in, bump and bump and bump against the doors of the teleporters. Think that is the end of their free game, sit down and log off. They never thought to read up on it. Never thought to try something else. Never even asked anyone if there was a way past it. Good riddance.
Just look at console games; with so many of them you can cut the game right out and just watch the cut scenes. It is complete spoon feeding to people demanding immediate self gratification.
Accomplishment comes from over coming adversity and having to think around a problem.
CSM Ten movement for change.
EVE - the only MMO that not so subtly serves up victims.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
2468
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Posted - 2014.12.26 04:29:21 -
[25] - Quote
^This^
Can we stop whining about Falcons and Ishtars, now?
That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...
[#savethelance]
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28830
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Posted - 2014.12.26 06:32:56 -
[26] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:This has done so much damage to the gaming industry. The basic precept that has spread is that you can have social rules in a game and then you have people who break those rules to win and that is fine. false. your social rules are imagined to begin with, and self-imposed.
Quote:A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I like the skill requirements. Love them. It is a filter for the impatient, which is often the immature. I hate interceptors and destroyers, one is a free ticket to skip past a control mechanism for little cost and time and the other is far too much damage for little cost and effort.
removing prerequisites is not a case of removing benefit of skills.
-=you still have the same ship with the same fit and the same skills=-
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
537
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Posted - 2014.12.26 07:25:38 -
[27] - Quote
Well CCP removed learning skills and built their bonus into our attributes by default, allowing us to train faster from the beginning than before... effectively reducing skill/time barriers a bit.
They have reduced the requirements for T2 ships.
They have reduced the requirements for T2 guns.
They have allowed new players to more quickly train into battleships or whatever class they are interested in, less skill levels needed in smaller ships now.
There have always been pirate ships which are as good or better than T2 ships and do not require lvl 5 skills to fly.
I guess faction modules can also be looked at as a way around and above T2 modules, though this often gets noobs into trouble. But you know.... Choices. Trade offs. Sand box.
CCP has been steadily reducing skill barriers over time have they not?
As for the UI, the new skin is fine. The UI itself is still BLARGH! as always. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
28836
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Posted - 2014.12.26 08:25:14 -
[28] - Quote
The dev blog with the blurred table obscuring the ship was comedy. The rhetoric about aesthetics was good too.
I'm willing to take your word for it, kinda, not really. The guns were adjusted to match missiles, and as for the T2 skills that matter to me, the ship skills are still lopsided. You don't realize the payoff of each level of the cruiser skill until you have them trained completely. That's just a time wall, and all kinds of incremental motivation lost. I understand T2 skills being limited to upgraded accounts, but the only reason people want to keep the Level V prerequisites is tradition for the sake of tradition.
devs still have "because specialization / specialization is what specialization is" mantra repeating in their minds.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Dark Opaque Theme
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.12.26 11:39:49 -
[29] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:EVE is dieing because there is no dak opaque theme!!!!111"!!!
Are you sure?
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Sol Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1156
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Posted - 2014.12.26 11:48:44 -
[30] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:goodpost I would vote for you if you wouldn't have to go public with your real life ... ... destroying my illusion of you being a sexy redhead with black lipstick.
Too bad. |
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