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Harrigan Raen
Nanotrasen Inc
5
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Posted - 2014.12.28 08:24:54 -
[1] - Quote
Let me start this out by admitting, I spent 95% of my time in High-Sec.
So as I understand it the way in which Concord works, is a a re-active police force. And that, it's meant to emulate the way real life police forces work (as best they can). I.E. Crime happens, people get popped.
But, my question really is in regards to Security Standing works with that. I have yet to see anyone ever actually die, because they were -5.0 or below. Unless, they were specifically attempting to get popped by it. So what does it really do? What is its purpose, other than identifying individuals who have "broken the law".
Now relating this back to RL police forces. If they were to see a "fugitive from the law", before that person were to even commit a crime. They would be calling in swat, and arresting him/her, etc. And why is the response, never proportional to how negative the person Sec. Standing is.
Is this something they are planning on changing or tweaking in the near future? I haven't seen anything in a notes, but I have been busy with the holidays.
And don't get me wrong, I enjoy the occasional person willing to take a stab at my hull in .7. I think non-consensual PvP is one of the aspects that really stands Eve out from the rest of other MMOs, and by no means do I ever want it to stop.
TLDR; From what I see Sec Standing is utterly useless, or am I misunderstanding what it's purpose is. Also, are there any changes planned? |
Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
358
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Posted - 2014.12.28 08:32:38 -
[2] - Quote
Relating Concord back to real life: If some one blows up a airliner in Germany and then escapes to Bolivia, the German Police have a very limited ability to track them down before they disappear into the seething mass of unidentified humanity. In Eve Online Concord are guaranteed to punish such miscreants. |
Harrigan Raen
Nanotrasen Inc
5
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Posted - 2014.12.28 08:39:51 -
[3] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Relating Concord back to real life: If some one blows up a airliner in Germany and then escapes to Bolivia, the German Police have a very limited ability to track them down before they disappear into the seething mass of unidentified humanity. In Eve Online Concord are guaranteed to punish such miscreants.
I relate Concord to NATO more so than to an single countries security force.
But even if you didn't, Germany in this case, would still put out wanted posters, and what not, and be checking every Airport, Sea Port, border crossing, etc. So that when they do see them, he gets railed hard. They might not be as active at pursuing the person, but you would be damn sure, if they drove by a cop on the street, and the cop identifies him. That craps going to happen. |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1968
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Posted - 2014.12.28 08:40:08 -
[4] - Quote
I invite you to go -5.0 and try to run around HiSec in a battleship.
Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
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Harrigan Raen
Nanotrasen Inc
5
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Posted - 2014.12.28 08:44:38 -
[5] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:I invite you to go -5.0 and try to run around HiSec in a battleship. Maybe that is what I'm missing from this whole thing. |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1968
|
Posted - 2014.12.28 08:54:25 -
[6] - Quote
Harrigan Raen wrote:Xuixien wrote:I invite you to go -5.0 and try to run around HiSec in a battleship. Maybe that is what I'm missing from this whole thing.
The navies, and CONCORD, have response/lock times, just like they would in the real world. People avoid the popop by flying fast-aligning ships; frigs, dessies, maybe cruisers. That's all.
Working as intended.
Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
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Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
358
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Posted - 2014.12.28 08:59:39 -
[7] - Quote
Harrigan Raen wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:Relating Concord back to real life: If some one blows up a airliner in Germany and then escapes to Bolivia, the German Police have a very limited ability to track them down before they disappear into the seething mass of unidentified humanity. In Eve Online Concord are guaranteed to punish such miscreants. I relate Concord to NATO more so than to an single countries security force. But even if you didn't, Germany in this case, would still put out wanted posters, and what not, and be checking every Airport, Sea Port, border crossing, etc. So that when they do see them, he gets railed hard. They might not be as active at pursuing the person, but you would be damn sure, if they drove by a cop on the street, and the cop identifies him. That craps going to happen.
Nato have no control over what happens in regards to 3/4 of the world population. In real life humans can change identity a criminal Eve Online can't dye their hair, change their name get a new passport...
...my point (which I think you missed) is that real life <--> internet spaceship comparisons are silly.
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Miko Valentine
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
24
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Posted - 2014.12.28 09:41:15 -
[8] - Quote
Concord Operates not in the Name of the 4 Nations , Concord is Terrorism |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
27979
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Posted - 2014.12.28 09:45:55 -
[9] - Quote
If you're -5.0 or below the popo are not an issue at all. You can be engaged by any player. Mostly when you are red players in highsec seem to run away a lot, but they are free to engage without being Concorded.
Between -2.0 and -5.0 it's only the popo and generally they web before they scram, so they often assist with the escape by making it easier to warp.
But death to the police does occur occasionally. Only takes a bit of lag and you can be scrammed before you are able to warp off.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
VENDO - wardec in effect. Check evemail and use TS when online.
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Mag's
the united
18387
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Posted - 2014.12.28 10:29:13 -
[10] - Quote
Popo are a pain and tend to take away player interaction rather than promote it. But it is working as intended atm.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Ferni Ka'Nviiou
Republic University Minmatar Republic
145
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Posted - 2014.12.28 10:36:06 -
[11] - Quote
Harrigan Raen wrote:Let me start this out by admitting, I spent 95% of my time in High-Sec.
So as I understand it the way in which Concord works, is a a re-active police force. And that, it's meant to emulate the way real life police forces work (as best they can). I.E. Crime happens, people get popped.
But, my question really is in regards to Security Standing works with that. I have yet to see anyone ever actually die, because they were -5.0 or below. Unless, they were specifically attempting to get popped by it. So what does it really do? What is its purpose, other than identifying individuals who have "broken the law".
Now relating this back to RL police forces. If they were to see a "fugitive from the law", before that person were to even commit a crime. They would be calling in swat, and arresting him/her, etc. And why is the response, never proportional to how negative the person Sec. Standing is.
Is this something they are planning on changing or tweaking in the near future? I haven't seen anything in a notes, but I have been busy with the holidays.
And don't get me wrong, I enjoy the occasional person willing to take a stab at my hull in .7. I think non-consensual PvP is one of the aspects that really stands Eve out from the rest of other MMOs, and by no means do I ever want it to stop.
TLDR; From what I see Sec Standing is utterly useless, or am I misunderstanding what it's purpose is. Also, are there any changes planned? In game terms, CONCORD governs illegal capsuleer actions in High Security space.
Players with -5.0 (or below) Security Status are classed as 'Outlaws' and can be shot anywhere without any interference from CONCORD (however, the outlaw can shoot back).
If a player with above -5.0 Security Status is attacked in High Sec unlawfully- (i.e, not without a Limited Engagement Timer nor being in the same Player corp as the attacker) -then the aggressor's ship will be disabled, and CONCORD will destroy them. No matter what.
Players with above 0.0 Security Status have no additional benefits, however:
EVElopedia wrote:
Players with -2.0 or worse will be attacked [by Empire navies] in 1.0 systems Players with -2.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.9 systems Players with -3.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.8 systems Players with -3.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.7 systems Players with -4.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.6 systems Players with -4.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.5 systems Security Status is but a means to hinder non-honourable PVP players. It doesn't affect anyone else, really.
EDIT: I'd just like to clarify some more, CONCORD will not shoot outlaws who do not have a 'Criminal offense' flag active. In High Security, outlaws and players with an outlawed Security Status will be attacked by the Empire Navies. They do not wield anywhere near the same combat capabilities as CONCORD does.
To simplify: Players who do not have a Criminal flag active will not be attacked by CONCORD. |
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra Gallente Federation
239
|
Posted - 2014.12.28 11:06:14 -
[12] - Quote
Harrigan Raen wrote:
So as I understand it the way in which Concord works, is a a re-active police force. And that, it's meant to emulate the way real life police forces work (as best they can). I.E. Crime happens, people get popped.
But, my question really is in regards to Security Standing works with that. I have yet to see anyone ever actually die, because they were -5.0 or below. Unless, they were specifically attempting to get popped by it. So what does it really do? What is its purpose, other than identifying individuals who have "broken the law".
The main fact you do not seem to know is that there is CONCORD and Faction Navy. The two are very different.
CONCORD comes along and blows up your ship if you agress anything in highsec that isn't yours (MTU's and similar stuff is exempt from this). There is NO escaping them, once you perform your criminal act the ship that you are flying is going to get blown up in under 25 seconds by them. Personal sec status does not matter to CONCORD.
Faction Navy: the navy of the 4 empires. They will chase you and TRY to blow you up if your personal sec status gets low enough (-5.0 for 0.5 systems, higher if you are in higher sec stat systems). They are far less powerful and slower to respond than CONCORD and they can be escaped from. I'd say their reaction time is about 30 ish seconds. Escaping them is typically done in fast aligning vessels, they will keep chasing you around though till they get you or you dock up.
Furthermore, at -5.0 every other player is free to shoot you in Highsec. Ship and pod.
In conclusion: at -5.0 or lower, you can't do anything in highsec that requires you to stay in the same place for longer than 30-ish seconds. It pretty much cripples you to do any PvE and PvP besides suicide ganking (which has a max time span of 25-ish seconds). So yeah, I'd say it has purpose and 'consequences'. |
Bob Maths
Aliastra Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.12.28 15:57:23 -
[13] - Quote
Harrigan Raen wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:Relating Concord back to real life: If some one blows up a airliner in Germany and then escapes to Bolivia, the German Police have a very limited ability to track them down before they disappear into the seething mass of unidentified humanity. In Eve Online Concord are guaranteed to punish such miscreants. I relate Concord to NATO more so than to an single countries security force. But even if you didn't, Germany in this case, would still put out wanted posters, and what not, and be checking every Airport, Sea Port, border crossing, etc. So that when they do see them, he gets railed hard. They might not be as active at pursuing the person, but you would be damn sure, if they drove by a cop on the street, and the cop identifies him. That craps going to happen.
No they wouldn't, Germany would respect the soveriegn integrity of Bolivia by not operating within the borders of Bolivia and would be working with the Bolivians to capture this man unless there are treaties between those two countries that establish the Germany's security force's operational capability within the borders of Bolivia.
There are no parallels to CONCORD and Germany as CONCORD are not a sovereign state. CONCORD are, in fact, the UN Peacekeeping forces. We are rebel factions by our nature of absolute independence to the sovereign nations of EVE. CONCORD is established by the Empires, retained by the Empires, dissolvable by the Empires. Security status just means how capable CONCORD are able to moderate disputes between capsuleers and in what capacity can they police the sovereign territory of the Empires.
NATO would be like the player-corp alliances in EVE, with a multitude of different relationships depending on membership or otherwise agreed upon standings ala treaties with non-member allies for NATO. |
J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5221
|
Posted - 2014.12.28 16:28:43 -
[14] - Quote
OP mixes CONCORD and Faction Police.
CONCORD punished criminal actions.
NPC police attacks outlaws (-5 and lower).
Latter one can be evaded in a fast ship. The former cant (and if you can, it is still an exploit).
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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Winter Archipelago
Furtherance.
317
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Posted - 2014.12.28 18:26:43 -
[15] - Quote
The difference between CONCORD and the RL Police forces is that CONCORD exist in a game. It's a balance mechanic. If you aren't satisfied with CONCORD and the Faction Navy responses, start hunting -5's yourself. They're free to shoot at, so you don't have to worry about being CONCORD'ed yourself.
Ransoms are accepted in Isk, Mods, Ships, and Dolls.
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
80
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Posted - 2014.12.28 18:34:24 -
[16] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:If you're -5.0 or below the popo are not an issue at all. You can be engaged by any player. Mostly when you are red players in highsec seem to run away a lot, but they are free to engage without being Concorded.
Between -2.0 and -5.0 it's only the popo and generally they web before they scram, so they often assist with the escape by making it easier to warp.
But death to the police does occur occasionally. Only takes a bit of lag and you can be scrammed before you are able to warp off.
The thing is when you see a red player, there are usually 2-5 more non red waiting for you to engage.
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Harrigan Raen
Nanotrasen Inc
5
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Posted - 2014.12.28 19:09:30 -
[17] - Quote
Thank You for the responses. Since I have never gone negative security standing, I guess I never really understood all the mechanics behind it. |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1973
|
Posted - 2014.12.28 19:12:31 -
[18] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:If you're -5.0 or below the popo are not an issue at all. You can be engaged by any player. Mostly when you are red players in highsec seem to run away a lot, but they are free to engage without being Concorded.
Between -2.0 and -5.0 it's only the popo and generally they web before they scram, so they often assist with the escape by making it easier to warp.
But death to the police does occur occasionally. Only takes a bit of lag and you can be scrammed before you are able to warp off. The thing is when you see a red player, there are usually 2-5 more non red waiting for you to engage.
And if they engage, the faction popo will probably pop them while they're shooting you. So ***** on all their killmails.
Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
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Cannibal Kane
Blood Raiders Elite
4581
|
Posted - 2014.12.28 23:49:19 -
[19] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Harrigan Raen wrote:Xuixien wrote:I invite you to go -5.0 and try to run around HiSec in a battleship. Maybe that is what I'm missing from this whole thing. The navies, and CONCORD, have response/lock times, just like they would in the real world. People avoid the popop by flying fast-aligning ships; frigs, dessies, maybe cruisers. That's all. Working as intended.
Incorrect,
You cannot escape concord.
The second you criminal you die.
@ OP:
Concord only comes if you perform a criminal act in highsec. You can never evade concord.
If your standing are below -5 navy police will chase you.
"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
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Tear Jar
New Order Logistics CODE.
263
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Posted - 2014.12.29 00:28:53 -
[20] - Quote
Harrigan Raen wrote:Xuixien wrote:I invite you to go -5.0 and try to run around HiSec in a battleship. Maybe that is what I'm missing from this whole thing.
Faction police ensure gankers can't do anything but gank in high sec,so we don't fly anything expensive because it would be pointless. |
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Memphis Baas
37
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Posted - 2014.12.29 03:15:49 -
[21] - Quote
Helps to NOT think of it in terms of RL police duties. Think of it in terms of game mechanics.
CONCORD is there to enforce the "suicide" part of suicide-gank PVP; they respond with overwhelming force, and it's against the game rules to try to avoid them. They're really just a timer; CCP could actually implement the same results with less graphics overload by setting up a self-destruct countdown on your ship when you attack someone in high-sec unprovoked. 5 to 30 seconds then boom.
Faction police deals with the long term repercussions of being an outlaw, in that it's a pain in the butt when they shoot you when you enter whatever security space your sec. status disallows. The response isn't as overwhelming as CONCORD and they can be evaded to an extent. Most people just use neutral alts for high-sec access, though, and private item-exchange contracts to transfer the gear to their pirate characters.
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Trevor Dalech
Adeptus Assassinorum Silent Eviction
70
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Posted - 2014.12.29 04:18:01 -
[22] - Quote
Harrigan Raen wrote: I have yet to see anyone ever actually die, because they were -5.0 or below.
*raises hand sheepishly*
I've lost ships because I didn't realize I jumped into a high sec system. Hang around on a gate long enough and some very angry faction police come along, if you're in a frigate you don't stand a chance.
If you just keep on warping around you're safe, however, any noob with a point can ruin your day, they just need to hold you for a while, eventually the police come in and take over. |
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