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Extreme
Eye of God Circle-Of-Two
18
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Posted - 2014.12.29 00:32:56 -
[1] - Quote
The hulk should had been the number 1 miner, at least it still is when you see the total costs for costruction parts, but it got badly nerfed by poor cargohold. So for a few years now the Mackinaw has become the most populair miningship just because the cargohold is better and way cheaper to build and way nicer profits to make.
But Mackageddon?
Seriously, the Hulk should get some love from CCP and so do the 'Hulka Gankers'
CCP make Hulkageddon possible again, fix what you broke 2.5 years ago!
/Extreme
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Steppa Musana
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2014.12.29 00:47:20 -
[2] - Quote
It needs 500m3 more so it can take 3 rounds of ice. the mechanics on mining need to also change to keep running for one more cycle after the cargo is full if its not overloaded
This would give you 1.999999999999 full cycles extra before you have to jet it |
Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
159
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Posted - 2014.12.29 00:54:45 -
[3] - Quote
you're wrong. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
1893
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Posted - 2014.12.29 01:12:27 -
[4] - Quote
Your first false assumption was that the hulk should be the number one miner. They have roles now, not tiers. |
Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
159
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Posted - 2014.12.29 01:19:09 -
[5] - Quote
the hulk is still the best mining ship, pulls in more ore than the others, the other ships have things that are better than the hulk like tank and cargohold but the hulk still mines more than the others.
Want to mine lots use a hulk. Want to mine afk while watching tv use a different one. Want to not get suicide ganked use the other one.
Only one of those three is best at mining the others are better at not mining. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
18987
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Posted - 2014.12.29 01:32:21 -
[6] - Quote
Hulk is king of the miners. They just require you to be at the computer and use and orca and/or other support to haul.
Mack just became popular because of the uberoreholds and the buffed tank which made them better for AFK miners.
If anything, the SKIFF needs to be fixed and have its yield reduced. To have good yield AND battleship tank AND drone bonus is just bad design that sends the wrong message to its 'entitled' pilots.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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shimiku
Black VooDoo Asassins The Kadeshi
28
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Posted - 2014.12.29 02:29:15 -
[7] - Quote
hulk is for group mining it got a small ore hold so it relies on other to do the hauling mack is for solo because it got a bigger ore hold so you can stay in belt longer skiff is for ppl that think they might get attacked it got the best tank of them all |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
521
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Posted - 2014.12.29 03:01:05 -
[8] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Hulk is king of the miners. They just require you to be at the computer and use and orca and/or other support to haul.
Mack just became popular because of the uberoreholds and the buffed tank which made them better for AFK miners.
If anything, the SKIFF needs to be fixed and have its yield reduced. To have good yield AND battleship tank AND drone bonus is just bad design that sends the wrong message to its 'entitled' pilots.
Noooes..
The idea was that all barges and exhumers would mine more or less the same amount of ore per time, so you wouldn't be "yield punished" by choosing one over the over three.
If anything we would need a gas harvester module.
signature
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Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
159
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Posted - 2014.12.29 03:12:12 -
[9] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Hulk is king of the miners. They just require you to be at the computer and use and orca and/or other support to haul.
Mack just became popular because of the uberoreholds and the buffed tank which made them better for AFK miners.
If anything, the SKIFF needs to be fixed and have its yield reduced. To have good yield AND battleship tank AND drone bonus is just bad design that sends the wrong message to its 'entitled' pilots. Noooes.. The idea was that all barges and exhumers would mine more or less the same amount of ore per time, so you wouldn't be "yield punished" by choosing one over the over three. If anything we would need a gas harvester module.
that was never the idea ever in any of the patches even a little bit. you're so wrong i feel ashamed that i'm telling you that you're wrong but you are so wrong if you were even a little bit more wrong you'd be right |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
381
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Posted - 2014.12.29 04:58:51 -
[10] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: If anything, the SKIFF needs to be fixed and have its yield reduced. To have good yield AND battleship tank AND drone bonus is just bad design that sends the wrong message to its 'entitled' pilots.
Well, according to CCP, nobody was using the Skiff when it mined less then the Mach. So they buffed the yield so more people would use it. I am curious as to where they stand now in reference to what area of space.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1843
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Posted - 2014.12.29 10:08:35 -
[11] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Hulk is king of the miners. They just require you to be at the computer and use and orca and/or other support to haul.
Mack just became popular because of the uberoreholds and the buffed tank which made them better for AFK miners.
If anything, the SKIFF needs to be fixed and have its yield reduced. To have good yield AND battleship tank AND drone bonus is just bad design that sends the wrong message to its 'entitled' pilots. Skiff does not have BS tank. Unless you are talking about an active tanked BS while measuring it against a passive tanked skiff. It would be far more reasonable to say it has BC sized tank. Also it has weaker than cruiser level drones due to the limited bandwidth available to it. And it doesn't have good yield, especially not if you want to have any kind of DPS on the drones, control range is limited, no utility and no tracking or speed mods for drones either unless you have no tank. Macks tank also received virtually no buff at all in the changes. |
Extreme
Eye of God Circle-Of-Two
18
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Posted - 2014.12.29 13:51:17 -
[12] - Quote
When CCP, 2.5 years ago, made new roles for Skiff, Mack and Hulk they "forgot" to take a look at the build requierements/ the total cost of build vs time to build vs market demand vs profit per ship.
This is really unbalanced and should be reviewed by CCP.
The Hulk cost way more to build, takes way longer to build but meanwhile there is way less market demand vs the Mack. You can produce 50 Macks a month vs 21 Hulks a month. Profit for a Mack is around 70M isk vs 8M isk for a Hulk.
So even if the mining / cargo outcome is ok to some, CCP really have to look over the cost to build/ time to build. 8M profit for a Hulk while only 21 can be produced a month vs a Mack 70M profit while able to produce 50 and then also take into notice the number of sales per month 50 hulks vs 200 Macks tells me there is something broken here! |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2654
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Posted - 2014.12.29 13:55:54 -
[13] - Quote
Extreme wrote:When CCP, 2.5 years ago, made new roles for Skiff, Mack and Hulk they "forgot" to take a look at the build requierements/ the total cost of build vs time to build vs market demand vs profit per ship.
This is really unbalanced and should be reviewed by CCP.
The Hulk cost way more to build, takes way longer to build but meanwhile there is way less market demand vs the Mack. You can produce 50 Macks a month vs 21 Hulks a month. Profit for a Mack is around 70M isk vs 8M isk for a Hulk.
So even if the mining / cargo outcome is ok to some, CCP really have to look over the cost to build/ time to build. 8M profit for a Hulk while only 21 can be produced a month vs a Mack 70M profit while able to produce 50 and then also take into notice the number of sales per month 50 hulks vs 200 Macks tells me there is something broken here!
or, perhaps the problem is that there's a glut of hulks on the market still, because they're perceived to be less good than said macks. A solution therefore is "don't produce the damn hulk" until such time that the hulk approaches a better profit point for you (note, it might not ever do that).
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
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Jean Luc Lemmont
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
511
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Posted - 2014.12.29 14:42:14 -
[14] - Quote
Damn you CCP and your player driven economy.
Oh..wait...
Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!
This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury
It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.
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Extreme
Eye of God Circle-Of-Two
18
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Posted - 2014.12.29 21:10:24 -
[15] - Quote
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:Damn you CCP and your player driven economy.
Oh..wait...
Totally missing the point here |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2147
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Posted - 2014.12.30 00:10:07 -
[16] - Quote
Mackinaw is better. Solution: nerf its yield. Hulk is fine.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
194
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Posted - 2014.12.30 00:23:40 -
[17] - Quote
The Hulk is supposed to be used alongside a Orca for fleet mining, whereas the Skiff and Mackinaw are better used for solo mining. The Hulk, nor the other, need a "fix" for anything since they all three do their job remarkable. |
Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
1
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Posted - 2014.12.30 13:25:40 -
[18] - Quote
the one and only thing ccp needs to do is get back to
hulk ore mack ice skiff mercoxid
i know i know they have roles now
they had roles perfect fine the only thing they had todo is give the same roles the t1 counterpart and adjust the skills
well its my opinion since i hate the changes they made |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2148
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:17:41 -
[19] - Quote
Gabriel Elarik wrote:hulk ore mack ice skiff mercoxid I have to disagree. Streamlining a ship into a single use isn't a role. It's just lazy design work. With the new barge roles, you can pick your favorite and use it to mine ore, ice, and mercoxit. Now what you mine doesn't choose your ship for you.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
1
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:49:18 -
[20] - Quote
in my eyes there is no difference between the ability to chose a ship with more tank or a ship with the ability to mine ice better
its true you had only the hulk for ore but you could chose your playstyle while doing so TankHulk / CargoHulk / YieldHulk and now all ships can mine all things but your playstyle choses the ship no difference to the system before now you need a ship for fleet mining and solo if you want the best yield and before a ship for ore and ice
in my eyes the exumers had more character before the changes in my opinion the balancing was at the wrong end not 6 ships that can mine all things with nearly the same yield
more ships and more content for miners moon mining or ring mining comet mining there are so many ideas out there and every one could be the steping stone for more ships and more choices for miners Empire vs 0.0 Tank vs Cargo and now add fleet or solo and 90% of all miners know what ship to fly you have many choices as miner NOT |
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2148
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:01:44 -
[21] - Quote
Gabriel Elarik wrote:its true you had only the hulk for ore but you could chose your playstyle while doing so TankHulk / CargoHulk / YieldHulk You can still fit the ship. The big change now is that there is an even wider gap between tank Skiff and yield Hulk than there ever was previously between tank Hulk and yield Hulk.
It'd be nice, though, if cargo expanders could increase the ore hold size.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
1
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:18:24 -
[22] - Quote
the thing is the fitting dosnt matter much you will never get a Hulk with enough tank that you would not chose the skiff if you want tank and you would never get a skiff with the yield of a hulk and vice versa
the gap is wider dosnt mean its better an example before the ganker had to scan the ship before he attempts the gank he could not see if the hulk is tank fittet or for yield or cargo know he knows Procurer and skiff is off limits alone and covetor and hulk retriever are easy targets the fit does nott matter most of the time because they cant fit enough tank to survive |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Redux
74
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:49:10 -
[23] - Quote
Yeah I consider the hulk OK as is, I mine quite effectively with it even if I just mine into cans and change to hauler and go pick it up when the field is cleared. I'm also less of a target to ganks, since I'm obviously not AFK mining when I'm updating jetcans to new cans and so on. But the hulk needs to be able to jettison sooner than 2 minutes between each can. And maybe a timer on how long hulk cans last? |
Amak Boma
Dragon Factory
53
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Posted - 2014.12.30 17:17:42 -
[24] - Quote
skiff no need any nerfing , its good lvl3 mission boat the yield can be reducd but the tank, damage from drones - increased by 5% |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
753
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Posted - 2014.12.30 17:30:11 -
[25] - Quote
I think I understand where the OP is coming from.
I don't think it's a matter of what the ships are capable of, but more a matter on, since they're all pretty well balanced, why does the Hulk still require substantially more time and costs to produce?
If they all have even trade-offs, why do they not cost the same general amount of time and isk to produce?
There's always going to be a bit a variables when it comes to production costs, but they should be more evenly balanced.
Perhaps the Hulk should mine everything better, and cost slightly more to produce, and maybe even slightly longer to produce. But the key word there is slightly....
If you did this, then the profit margin would be determined by supply and demand instead of manufacturing costs and time. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2150
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Posted - 2014.12.30 23:46:32 -
[26] - Quote
Gabriel Elarik wrote:covetor and hulk retriever are easy targets the fit does nott matter most of the time because they cant fit enough tank to survive Even a Covetor can easily fit enough tank to shrug off a T2 Catalyst in 0.5 sec space. Just being able to survive a single catalyst very significantly reduces your chance of being ganked. But Covetors and Hulks also are made to be flying in mining fleets. In a fleet you share intel with each other, and you pay attention, and when someone sees someone else being suspicious, perhaps looking for a gank, they let everyone know and you guys get safe. That reduces ganks even better than the tank. Both together will cut your ganks by over 90%. And then you can still enjoy that yield bonus.
I'd fly a Covetor any day, but I would certainly fit tank. I might not fit a Procurer for tank but I probably would. Tank modules just make a bigger difference than yield modules.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
6
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Posted - 2014.12.31 00:41:37 -
[27] - Quote
Seems like a barge full of rocks would be able to absorb tonnes of abuse.
Wardec immunity of industrial ships in newbcorps is a big, big obstacle to all kinds of logical content though. |
Extreme
Eye of God Circle-Of-Two
18
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Posted - 2014.12.31 03:03:04 -
[28] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I think I understand where the OP is coming from.
I don't think it's a matter of what the ships are capable of, but more a matter on, since they're all pretty well balanced, why does the Hulk still require substantially more time and costs to produce?
If they all have even trade-offs, why do they not cost the same general amount of time and isk to produce?
There's always going to be a bit a variables when it comes to production costs, but they should be more evenly balanced.
Perhaps the Hulk should mine everything better, and cost slightly more to produce, and maybe even slightly longer to produce. But the key word there is slightly....
If you did this, then the profit margin would be determined by supply and demand instead of manufacturing costs and time.
That's right Joe |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2152
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Posted - 2014.12.31 03:09:59 -
[29] - Quote
I thought they have about the same costs to produce, and the lower price tag on the procurers was due to having a lot already built. But if they do indeed cost a lot less to produce, I think that should change. I don't see a problem with them costing a bit less, but overall I think the cost should be about the same.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Extreme
Eye of God Circle-Of-Two
18
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Posted - 2014.12.31 14:31:42 -
[30] - Quote
I just checked the bpo's of skif/mack/hulk and they do have the same production times now.
BUT
Using the industry information it will cost 239.5M isk in materials to produce 1 hulk (BPO original with no research) and can sell it at 216M isk on market. (exclusive 6.6M production costs and exclusive 1.5M sales tax per ship)
Mack bpo with no research, at the Industry tool, it costs 203M to produce a mack and it sells at 200M on market
Skiff, BPO with no research, 165M to build and selling 165M on market
Conclusion: Hulk 23.5M loss per produced ship Mack 3M loss per produced ship Skiff breaks even
As i used bpo non researched and same market materials (Jita), market fluctuations have no role nor influence on this basic outcome.
Question is why the Industry tool generates at best a break even on the Skiff and a 10% loss (excluding production costs and sales tax of 8M isk). The loss on a produced Hulk is 23.5M plus 8M production costs and tax, 31.5M per ship!
There is also a huge overstock on market so i can conclude Exhumers have become way to strong and/or the penalties in Empire ganking Exhumers have become too strong? |
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