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Hardin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.13 12:55:00 -
[61]
I think some people are excessively blaming the game for problems that are actually caused by the way we play the game.
Firstly - blobs!
Blobs have been around forever - I can remember people ranting about them 3 years ago. The difference is that there are more blobs now and they tend to be bigger. Why - because more people are in alliances now than was the case back then. Not only that but there are more people playing now - systems that once had 5 pilots in local now have 15 - that automatically means a 5 man squad is likely to get outnumbered very fast.
Secondly - unwillingness to engage / trap and bait.
There is not some new phenomena that people are suddenly reluctant to engage because there ships are too expensive. It's always been the case.
The problems is that we as players and as a playerbase are a whole lot 'smarter' than we used to be. Generally pilots are less nooby and have a better idea of when is and when is not a good time to engage and make the smart choice.
The more elite corps like m0o and others would always choose when and where to engage to minimise their losses - their enemies on the other hand would simply blob up get a number advantage (with no real idea of the opposition ship types/fittings/composition/capabilities and then it was 'tallyho' - and normally they would get owned.
These days most pilots have a better understanding of their opponents ships & tactics and are therefore less likely to 'tallyho' their ships into certain defeat.
Someone above stated that he could only get good fights in inty/vaga gangs. Well tbh in my mind that is just as lame as the snipe/wcs tactics that people like BE use.
It's just another way of racking up kills with while minimising the potential for losses. As soon as anything with the capability of killing a gang like that gets anywhere near they just run off - even dictors dont help.
We had KIA using similar fleets against us in our recent war and tbh in the end we couldn't be arsed to chase 'em around - just warned people to steer clear. If we wanted the gate back we just sent in a properly equipped fleet and they would run off.
The problem is that people NATURALLY want to maximise their kills/losses ratio. That's not something that has suddenly happened since the introduction of kill mails - its something people have always tried to do.
The problem is that the majority of pilots now are to some extent 'vets' and as such less likely to give cheap ganks away...
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Hardin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:01:00 -
[62]
Originally by: darth solo Celes apoc is full of vets and we keep them interested by attacking the best.. play eve on hard.
id rather kill 1 BOB battleship than 5 noob alliance battleship... thats why we fight BOB, because its a challenge. close range PVP action, no *** 180k RED BOX warfare.
We had yesterday for a 24 period 4 pages of kills on our killboard, most alliances dont get that action, eve is what u make it.
Its alsoALOT more stable than when it started, CTDS were so common in PVP u just expected it, with the first to log back on the winner.
Im enjoying my eve time lately, its been fun.
d solo.
I endorse what Darth says.
If you really don't like how EVE plays now leave your blobby super alliance and go claim a chunk of 0.0 for your own with a few of your other friends - and then take on all comers.
There is still plenty of fights and fun to be had out there... ------------------------------
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:09:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/09/2006 13:10:05 People have been complaining about the poor state of PvP since May 2003.
That doesn't mean that it was hopeless then, and it doesn't mean that it's hopeless now.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
Turiya Flesharrower
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:18:00 -
[64]
Originally by: darth solo Celes apoc is full of vets and we keep them interested by attacking the best.. play eve on hard.
id rather kill 1 BOB battleship than 5 noob alliance battleship... thats why we fight BOB, because its a challenge. close range PVP action, no *** 180k RED BOX warfare.
We had yesterday for a 24 period 4 pages of kills on our killboard, most alliances dont get that action, eve is what u make it.
Its alsoALOT more stable than when it started, CTDS were so common in PVP u just expected it, with the first to log back on the winner.
Im enjoying my eve time lately, its been fun.
d solo.
Agreed. We've been getting a major influx of PvP-specialized recruits who've gotten bored of the alliance/blob/POS War life and want to experience PvP in its true form. I'd imagine that's the case with most of the PvP-focused corps in the game. Most of the people complaning here are part of the blob alliances and their play style obviously stagnates quickly. -----
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Andargor theWise
Disbelievers of Fate
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:18:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Andargor theWise on 13/09/2006 13:18:52
The occasional good fight does occur. Surprisingly, we had a good small fleet engagement with our friends vs goons/KIA this weekend. It was close up and personal, classic cheap blob outnumbering expensive ships 5:1. A lot of fun on both sides.
But, yeah, the rest is all about overkill forces jumping on top of you if you take the bait. Or stupid station mechanics and capital ship bumpage (which we have used, and our opponents as well, so no holier than thou here). Or just tiptoeing around their forces...
A lot has to do with how many pilots you can field. The goons obviously can field many, and timezones are a factor.
In any case:
/signed
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:26:00 -
[66]
There is a strong argument that many of the current perceived woes of Eve are the fault of the veteran players. IÆm not saying this flippantly, and IÆm not going to accuse particular organisations and alliances specifically, but the reality of the situation is that successful players and player entities do influence the nature of the game. The developers play Eve, they listen to the forums, they listen to the opinions and desires of high profile corporate and alliance leaders and they do react to perceived aspirations and player ambitions.
Lets analyse the currently malady in Eve.
ItÆs too difficult to get a reasonable fight without:
A) frustration from stabbed foes escaping. B) outmatched numbers lead to no engagement. C) gank vs gank no skill results. D) simple inability to make oneÆs enemies wish to fight.
Factors involved in this situation:
1. Lag tactics/perception of lag turns people off. 2. POS warfare is very dull and very laggy. 3. Tech2 ships are too expensive to lose to ganks and lag. 4. Clones are too expensive to lose to ganks and lag. 5. Bubbles and interdictors make ganking/clone death easier.
Resulting in:
1. 0.0 alliances tend to play indirect POS sovereignty wars to hold territory because itÆs cheaper and more reliable way to hold territory claims. 2. New players stay out of 0.0 because itÆs a virtual insta-death zone. 3. The server population has become more risk-averse due to the perception (mostly correct) that warfare in 0.0 is about numbers and lag and bubbles and isnÆt any fun. 4. 0.0 pvpers get bored and ennui bound because combat is not accessible and challenging/fun any more. 5. 0.0 POS industrialists rule the world.
But how did this really happen?
Now IÆm thinking that Oveur and his happy crew of devs didnÆt really sit down one day and have a meeting about turning the fantastic player-led political free-for-all of Eve into a turgid satellite-spewing simulator to the exclusion of all else.
What I think happened was that the ôTeam Ethosö from games like Battlefield and Counterstrike and online ôclanö based systems game to roost in Eve. I think that successful players in Eve lobbied successfully for the game to become more ôteamö and less ôindividualö, more mandatory cooperation and less chance for individuals to achieve anything. We saw corporations rendered less important by the adoption of Alliance structure û we saw numbers become critical in fleet battles and fighting, saw expensive infrastructure and building items become essential and along the way the whole concept of Eve as ôelite next generationö got traded in for something more like one of those multiplayer space empire games about stats and weight of production.
And people liked this donÆt get me wrong. Some very successful alliances and alliance leaders have gone on record as saying that the individual has no real place in Eve today. That teamwork, team orientation, big battalions are everything. Some people love the high end content that is only accessible for the elite of the elite and takes multiple-billions of isk to rollout. Some people live this game, they play 24/7, they consider it a replacement for their rl aspirations and are absolutely committed to the goals of their in-game organisation.
And its somewhat nanve to believe that this degree of obsession/fandom/enthusiasm, lets say, doesnÆt infect and drive the priorities of the developers. Why is the corporate interface so poor? Why are corp standings still borked? Why do individual missions and items of single player content get shuffled to the back of the to do lists? Well, I believe the perception from CCPÆs point of view is that all new content needs to be about the big power veteran organisations to be ôexcitingö. If your corporation canÆt build a Titan it just means you arenÆt trying hard enough. If your entity fails to take and hold a vast POS network in 0.0 it means you lack vision, arenÆt dedicated, are rubbish at teamwork and generally fail at Eve. _________________
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:27:00 -
[67]
I think they (ccp) are playing up to the most successful organisations and individuals and have bought into the teamwork above all paradigm to the exclusion of the single-play (small/unit) experience which did exist earlier in the game.
But itÆs not enough to blame CCP for this. They are reacting to what we the players (collectively) have been seen to ask for. Its natural for them to focus on what the big guys and gals can achieve with the sandbox theyÆve provided. ItÆs sexy for them to see POS wars and motherships and titans and competitions that cost billions of isk a round. And because those dev guys are as devoted to the game as the super-committed eve players in question they fail to see that for some people its all gone too far and become akin to a job of work not an entertaining multiplayer elite-like space sim where individuals can carve out something for themselves and small groups of friends.
This stuff is very pervasive. LetÆs take the whole ôeverybody is too richö idea that some have. Riddari is absolutely correct above by the way. The reality is that the 0.0 pvp vets with POS networks and tech2 collections are too rich. The empire-bound new wave of players isnÆt too rich. Lots of small unit pvpers longing for the ôgood old daysö arenÆt too rich either. To be ôtoo richö generally, you need access to a 0.0 complex, a good tech2 bpo, passive income from outposts and mining and such, or some kind of appalling empire mission-running alt that collects halo implants for sale regularly.
Where this stuff undermines the fun of combat and willingness to fight is not about ôall kills are meaninglessö so much as ôall kills against YOUö are meaningless. If an alliance is running a deep 0.0 complex every day and mining and taxing and whatnot its making billions, so how is some jonny-come-lately medium life outfit supposed to make inroads into that cash cow? Answer is, not by conflict but by bending its knee and joining up. And that just makes the situation worse.
0.0 at the moment is the epitome of the word ôcarebearö (in the sense of reward without risk) The organisations in 0.0 make too much money too regularly and too easily to be destroyed (or seriously disadvantaged) by warfare. They sit on vast passive income and easily-accessible resources and grow bloated and fat without predators or serious rivals. They are protected by the game mechanics the developers have given us at their request:
1. Invulnerable outposts with sovereignty. This is a carebear charter. It allows people to hold space without actually shooting anybody. 2. Bubbles, ædictors, sniping ammo û these things make it easy to score kills against smaller numbers and unwary travellers to keep the pvpers ôhappyö 3. Encouraging bigger fleets, bigger wars via alliances and gang support mods and fire intensification bonuses just powers the gank, you get 101201201 ships in a gang and youÆll win.
So what IÆm saying hear is that itÆs a little ironic to me that the same Veterans who know ask if CCP have forgotten them (not the OP btw this is a general point) were generally the people applauding the introduction of big powerful flashy end game content that elevated teamwork to the nth degree and made individual impact on this shared gameworld an extremely endangered concept.
Some have stuck to their guns of course: Digital Communist for example loves the current focus on hardwork, teamwork, cruel and unforgiving mechanics and the general exclusion of anyone who canÆt assemble a willing alliance of talented fighting drones to gank/mine/fuel POS/ do whatever it takes to keep their heads above the pack. Fair doÆs to the guy to be honest, I appreciate and respect the commitment that takes, but where it becomes a problem is when that zealous approach to the game becomes a disproportionately influential voice in the community and has the effect of excluding other avenues of gameplay style to the rest.
_________________
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Alberta
Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:27:00 -
[68]
The way I see it is that infrastructure only comes in one size for all practical purposes, that size being POS. This causes a problem since you can't go and attack a POS without a good number of capital ships and a big fleet to keep them safe.
Why is this a problem?
It's a problem because if you take a fleet incapable of attacking infrastructure, the defending alliance can simply ignore you for the most part. They don't need to undock and risk their ships if you're not causing them any damage.
What should be done about it?
We need more variety in the scale of our infrastructure. Specifically we need structures which are both useful and balance difficulty of destruction against cost but are much easier to destroy than POS. As a rough stab at numbers something that will allow a moderately sized fleet to cause roughly half a billion ISK in damage over the space of an hour or two. This doesn't have to be a single structure, it could be that it takes a time due to having to track down and destroy a number of targets that form a distributed network.
The idea behind this ofc is to encourage people to undock their battleships and defend their home. The cost of staying docked and allowing ahostile fleet free reign needs to be comparable to the cost of losing a few ships.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:28:00 -
[69]
Its all very well to be nostalgic for the days of Space Invaders and Jokers and GNW era fleet duelling in Venal and Tribute and Pureblind, but unless people start sending a very positive message to the developers that we want more individual content and a return to the focus of smaller entities and more actual risk for the sitting tenants in 0.0 things are unlikely to change for the better.
_________________
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:28:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Riddari I would love to know where I can go to rat for 2-4 hours to replace a t2 fitted battleship. Do you fit small tech2 weapons?
I would love to have a billion isk, nevermind several billions.
The filthy rich keep whining that "everyone has too much isk" while a lot of people are saying that they are scared to undock their shiny tech 2 ships becauses replacing them is wallet breaking.
So who has all the ISK? The whiners who says everyone has too much isk?
If you fly a T2 fitted raven and know how to chain spawns right, you can make 150-250M per hour in 0.0 just ratting + loot, which is about as much. This is ofcourse if you can do it solo. And this is in a bad system. -0.5 sec or so. I don't know how much ppl make in -1.0 systems and it pretty much scares me to think about it. Mind control and tin hats |
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:28:00 -
[71]
What people remember as ôthe good old daysö is the time when Eve didnÆt need gangs of 20-30 players to play effectively. The time when 0.0 organisations were not fantastically rich and the time when fleet battles were decisive in their own right rather than simply pointless side-shows to the main event of carebear POS spamming to shore up the invulnerable outposts and their passive income.
So itÆs a dichotomy really. On the one hand Eve has raised the bar on what you need to do to compete and shown us the very real distinction between leadership and enthused commitment and dilettante amateurism. Its probably the most challenging and demanding game on the planet at the moment for the leaders and administrators of the top flight alliances. But it does now run the risk of losing the fun factor for the vast majority of ordinary players who just like the idea of playing a multiplayer space game and making a living in the universe of New Eden. And this is not just about empire-dwelling carebears anymore. ItÆs about the ongoing conversion of 0.0 into a more controlled environment for the 0.0 carebears to derive a permanent and enduring income from.
If you are a player who enjoys small unit combat, doing your own thing, making your own rules, not towing the line and paying lip-service to a new generation of immortal overlords then your place on the frontier is now under very serious threat. If the current direction of the game continues you wonÆt get fair fights and enjoyable battles in 0.0 anymore û just ganks and lag and 1vs20 because that is the way that the ôteam-oriented paradigmö is pushing the development of Eve. Better get used to empire wars boys, because thatÆs where the entertainment will be.
As for the solutions, well, thatÆs the tough bit isnÆt it? Eve has become like it is because of raw fiscal reality and the expressed desire of the player base to see the law of the jungle in operation. If you fight live and death you donÆt want fair fights. If you want to set yourself up for life with a constant income you donÆt really care about other peopleÆs enjoyment. If money (and with it) power is your ultimate motivator youÆll fight when it suits you, avoid battle if it doesnÆt, do anything you need to do to ensure your place and advantage within the rules of the game. And this is whatÆs happened û weÆre seeing something like an end-game here and the result is that 0.0 is big enough for multiple sitting tenants to protect their claims without fighting each other and simply using their wealth to buy the best of all new technology and innovations available. There is no motivation for these entities to risk the status quo. Trespassers get terminated, pvp combat is largely meaningless and nothing much changes û the only way to get a bite at that cake is (generally) to sign up with the people already ôwinningö.
If you want to change that, well, you need to change the mechanics that currently allow entities to hold advantage and space without fighting; you need to re-introduce some ôriskö into the ôrisk/rewardö cycle of territorial conquest in 0.0. How about territorial alliances need to have an HQ declared in a conquerable station/outpost and if that outpost is taken/captured the alliance is dissolved and the victor gets the billion isk?
And you need to do something to destroy the power of blobs. Maximum gang sizes maybe? Focused fire penalties? Sig resolution penalties linked to lag factor? Anything really, but you have to make warfare about multiple smaller gangs not one or two humongous gangs only.
But until the general weight of opinion from the community turns against the team-oriented metagame of big battalions of organised numerical advantage this kind of thing is unlikely. As long as the top players with the most influence continue to welcome in the new end game content that requires hundreds to labour as one and combine their efforts in 24/7 striving then this is the way things will continue to go.
_________________
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Admiral IceBlock
Caldari Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:32:00 -
[72]
Ships stats has to be changed, offensive modules has to be changed, deffensive modules has to be changed!
In the old days you had to struggle to fitt a full rack of tacyhons on your beloved apocalypse. You had to sacrifice most, if not all of your lowslots to be able to do that. These days, people actully EXPECT to be able to fitt a full rack of the best damaging and range weapons.
And there lies the other problem, longer RANGE equals better DAMAGE. That is just so wrong and stupid and add NO diversity what so ever. The same applies to different race ships. There are different weapons, but they ALL have the same EFFECT.
I do not use my battleship anymore outside of fleet engagements, why? Because where ever I go I get blobbed, and blob leads to death with a NO CHANCE AT ALL to do something to prevent it. So why risk a battleship when I am almost invulnerable in a smaller, but yet POWERFUL against a lone battleships?
POS warfare just sucks, no doubt. Idea for POS overhaul here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=388151
What we need is LINE OF SIGHT, dynamic fleet battles and different scenarios. Not just the same old WARP IN AT 150KM BOOM BOOM WARP OUT!
- Any manouver is absolute, it has no effect, only SPEED. - Everything is a gun platform and not an actual ship.
So why do I play EVE? Simply because there is no other sci-fi MMORPG alternativ, but I can assure you as soon as there is, I wont think before leaving ASAP!
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Turiya Flesharrower
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:36:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Laboratus
If you fly a T2 fitted raven and know how to chain spawns right, you can make 150-250M per hour in 0.0 just ratting + loot, which is about as much. This is ofcourse if you can do it solo. And this is in a bad system. -0.5 sec or so. I don't know how much ppl make in -1.0 systems and it pretty much scares me to think about it.
You're making the flawed assumption that every ratter gets a Commander spawn at least once per hour and that the spawn drops good loot and not just tags. -----
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Drilla
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:46:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Drilla on 13/09/2006 13:47:10 How to fix PVP in eve 101:
Remove weapons from POS entirely and release more defensive mods - make protection of POS' a people thing. Also make the aggression timer apply to pos shields (you cant enter if you have a timer ala the jump a gate). Also this way we'd see a whole new profession - POS defence mercs for the corps that arent big enough or PVP enabled enough to do it themselves (paid to PVP anyone?).
Remove killmails but add an opt-in CCP run death (notice not kills but deaths) database (opt-in on corp/alliance level).
Add range penalty to lockingtime so in theory the range you extend with the sensorbooster doesnt make you lock faster if you are in the range added by the booster (this will change the game for the better and there is _NO_ downside at all).
There you have it - PVP will rule again with these 3 changes.
Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost! |
Laboratus
Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:50:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower
Originally by: Laboratus
If you fly a T2 fitted raven and know how to chain spawns right, you can make 150-250M per hour in 0.0 just ratting + loot, which is about as much. This is ofcourse if you can do it solo. And this is in a bad system. -0.5 sec or so. I don't know how much ppl make in -1.0 systems and it pretty much scares me to think about it.
You're making the flawed assumption that every ratter gets a Commander spawn at least once per hour and that the spawn drops good loot and not just tags.
No, commander loot gives is nice extra, but with just the "best named" is usually 5M+ per item, and the others are not bad either, if you know where to sell em. I rarely make assumptions. As assume means (make an) A** (out of) YOU (and) Me = assume. Mind control and tin hats |
Yarrick
Amarr Finite Auxiliary
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:52:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Murphy
Originally by: C4w3 I had a discussion last night with Phonix and some oldies Hast and homies in a chan. Resulting in me actually wanted to post my personal rant ;0) you beat me to it.... hehe
Well here is my 5 cents.
ISK = Money sink? at this point of time there is no real risk losing anything not even a pimped out mach issue mega raven and so forth. ppl are filthy rich.
Dont even get me started on getting targets, it¦s just lame beyond imagination.
Fleet battles, well as a mini pilot 150 km + sniping is co0l and all but by god how boring, remembering the awsome days in providence with Sally che, and the fighting in venal or fountain with SPVD, mo0 Forsaken and that i called PVP battles .... almost crying losing you shiny Tempest or scorp..... having to go 60 some jumps back home ...
POS are BROKE, POS wars SUCKS, Read Seleens posts about it pretty much says it all, i cant freekin explain, to drunk atm ;0)
Solo PVP well it¦s notting such as solo called in eve no more, just ganks imho.
I say ROLLBACK to Castor ..........
Now im gonna go sleep.
Flame away.
And i DO NOT care about spelling gramma or anything like that, all i care about are drugs alcohol and Females.
C4 --> OUT.
I have to agree the old days of us fighting in providence were the most fun I've had in this game. Back then insurance was a joke, agent missions sucked, you'd get your ass kicked npcing half the time, yet we'd all go out and blow each other up and not think a thing about it. Then go get new ships and go at it again. Didn't matter who won or who lost, the important thing was everybody had fun and there was a good round of fun in local afterwards.
I think like a lot of people do killmails and killbaords have gone a long way in removing that fun. People are more worried about looking bad on a killboard then they are about just going out and having fun.
On a slighly more personal note, I can vouch for most if not all of the old hardcore Corp 1 members, that fighting in Providence against the likes of DDC and their allies was the most fun I and they ever had playing EVE. Perhaps we could have a reunion some time. _____________________________________________
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Koronos
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:53:00 -
[77]
Jasmine Constantine for Architect.
Koronos
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Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
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Posted - 2006.09.13 13:53:00 -
[78]
Most Vets are also insanly rich. So they can afford to lose alot which means a newer corp can never compete with a corp full of vets. Also do the vets have more sp so it would be suicide for a newer player to 1vs1 them in a similar ship. These two are also factors which should not be forgotten. And then there are also the amount of T2 BPO which is by far to small for the playerbase. Not everyone should fly and officer/faction fitted pimpmobile but T2 should be affordable. But i also agree that the high end clones should be made cheaper, in the world of gankfleets and bubbles it is totally wrong to make clones that expensive.
People talking about making 100 mil an hour are wrong, i would say 30mil is more accurate and they also forget that if you only play eve like 1 hour a day and want to pvp you can¦t afford a new hac or t2 battleship every day.
So simply whining about not finding a target makes no sense, also does not everyone play eve 23/7, not everyone plays the same style. Some play EVE as market sim, some like a 1vs1 combat game, some as strategic game and so on... So you have to accept that people have another view of the game and will not want to lose a ship per day.
Perhaps removing killmails would be a solution but who really knows. I give CCP one more chance (kali) and then i¦ll see if i stay.... ----
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ParMizaN
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:08:00 -
[79]
Just "Sigh"
I agree with you in most of the points, but in some ways the game is evolving. I would love to see some more fun in the new features instead of killing 50 billion pos and having one fight where you are so lagged by pos, people etc that you cannot do ANYTHING.
it's really pointless to advane the game in a direction where larger fleets are needed with more expensive equipment where more lag is involved when the server cannot handle it at all.
sig edited for lack of pink really PINK -eris Pink is overrated, yellow is the new pink - Xorus XORUS!!1 HEATHEN KILLKILLKILLKILLKILL - Immy |
Alberta
Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:12:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Its all very well to be nostalgic for the days of Space Invaders and Jokers and GNW era fleet duelling in Venal and Tribute and Pureblind, but unless people start sending a very positive message to the developers that we want more individual content and a return to the focus of smaller entities and more actual risk for the sitting tenants in 0.0 things are unlikely to change for the better.
ffs now I have to rewrite my post cos the forums are still randomly forgetting when people are logged in even though you only just logged in. I'm supposed to be working here so I'll come back and edit this into something more relevant later.[/rant]
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Elve Sorrow
Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:13:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 13/09/2006 14:15:04
Originally by: Tarri Most Vets are also insanly rich. So they can afford to lose alot which means a newer corp can never compete with a corp full of vets.
Hello. I'm a vet. I've been playing since beta. I currently have 3.124.405,08 ISK on my main and a further 5.596.589,05 on my alt.
Originally by: Tarri Also do the vets have more sp so it would be suicide for a newer player to 1vs1 them in a similar ship.
I've lost ships to players with half the SP i have, purely becaus i made a bad call, or the other guy came up with a surprising setup, or he just happened to be good. SP says nothing.
This whole vendetta against vets and ISK and whatnot is nonsense. Some vets are rich, sure. Some are poor. Then again, i know plenty noobs that are rich, and plenty that are poor. It doesnt say anything.
Hardin made the best point of this thread yet - MOST of us are vets, most of us ceased making silly mistakes. Mistakes that back in the day would've ended up in a fight, now arent made. No fight, vets whining.
Think about it, how did most of the fleetfights back in the day start? Right, the 200-man alliance fleet would camp a gate, you'd jump in with 80 disciplined battleships, 3 decent tacklers and before the alliance fleet had as much as called a target you'd already downed two of theirs.
The blob would sit at a gate/station and a small gang would warp in at longrange, gank 1-3 BS and some support and get the fck outta there. Repeat till roughly even numbers and have a ball.
Now both fleets just sit at a ss waiting for the other guy. Why give THEM all the advantages of deciding range, time etc?
Some of you say the only fun left is flying in smaller gangs trying to kill stuff. Thats fun, yea, if youre the scout/tackler. The rest of the gang just gets to gank the 10 NPCers you find. Might aswell go bring a sniperbs to a fleetfight and save time moving around.
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Turiya Flesharrower
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:14:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Laboratus
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower
Originally by: Laboratus
If you fly a T2 fitted raven and know how to chain spawns right, you can make 150-250M per hour in 0.0 just ratting + loot, which is about as much. This is ofcourse if you can do it solo. And this is in a bad system. -0.5 sec or so. I don't know how much ppl make in -1.0 systems and it pretty much scares me to think about it.
You're making the flawed assumption that every ratter gets a Commander spawn at least once per hour and that the spawn drops good loot and not just tags.
No, commander loot gives is nice extra, but with just the "best named" is usually 5M+ per item, and the others are not bad either, if you know where to sell em. I rarely make assumptions. As assume means (make an) A** (out of) YOU (and) Me = assume.
Well let's assume that every Battleship rat drops 1 mil worth of loot on average (I consider this optimistic) and that the average Battleship rat is worth 2mil as well (again, very optimistic; and I'm speaking from experience here since I lived in a -1.0 system for months). In order to earn even 150mil in one hour, you'd have to kill 50 Battleship rats and then pick up all of their loot. Let's call it 45 rats since you'll have BCs, frigates and cruisers too.
Even assuming you can kill a BS rat in 90 seconds, that doesn't take into account the time taken to pick up the loot or warp from belt to belt (that's actually more time than you'd think). Even with a hauler alt doing it for you, the warp time, crap spawns are still going to cut down on what you make significantly. I'd be surprised if you could make 50mil in an hour given erratic spawns, letalone 150 or even 250. -----
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Lord Wimbishi
Caldari Wolven Elite Guard Ghosts of Retribution
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:20:00 -
[83]
Best way to fix POS warfare. REMOVE reinforce mode or recalibrate it to start pumping back into the shield when the shield is not getting shot at.
If a POS can get wiped out in one go, it would make POS quite a bit more interesting and less static.
"Protecting the Ignorant from the immoral scum of the galaxy" |
Laboratus
Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:28:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower ...
It all depens on what you are trying to get. If you are trying to get officer and hauler spawns, you kill every spawn and wish for good luck. Sometimes you make a bill in minutes in loot, some times you get stuck with 30-50M per hour. And absolutely no good loot. It's luck really. But if you "Chain" the spawns you can fill all the belts in a system with the best rats available. Be they 600k or 1.7M battleships it doesn't matter, it just creates a cap for income. In -0.50 systems the spawn cap is around 1.5M, haven't ratted in better systems, but at least -0.85 systems I've seen 1.7M rats as normal rats. there prolly are even better rats in -1.0 systems, but do tell.
Ratting is a skill in it self, and it can't really be done alone, having a hauling character do that for you really helps. This is the last of what I will say about this, as it is kinda out of topic, it was just to illustrate a point long lost at this phase. Mind control and tin hats |
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:34:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Lord Wimbishi Best way to fix POS warfare. REMOVE reinforce mode or recalibrate it to start pumping back into the shield when the shield is not getting shot at.
If a POS can get wiped out in one go, it would make POS quite a bit more interesting and less static.
Absolutely SPOT on.
KIA Piccys
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Noveron
Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:39:00 -
[86]
In certain aspects its just the players evolution has gone much further than eve has, imo.
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Goberth Ludwig
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:40:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Goberth Ludwig on 13/09/2006 14:44:25 No offence, but all these "Hi I am a disgruntled vet, blah blah blah K/D ratio pos warfare lag blob for the lose blah blah nostalgia aint what it used to be blah blah ccp doesnt care oh why are they so mean" posts are getting old.
EDIT: oh and lemme add 1 thing, as evil thug pointed out a while ago, POS warfare is not everything, if someone has a station but cannot use it because the system is constantly raided then the POSes will probably go sooner or later...
- Gob
[IXC] Admiral Goberius |
Ceratin
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:40:00 -
[88]
Im going through the same phase myself, atm the only thing keeping me in this game is probably routine, game mechanics and lag has ruined 95% of the gameplay i used to enjoy daily. Still hoping for a fix :(
------------ - All Hail, Leader of The Pod Brigade |
Kye Kenshin
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:43:00 -
[89]
Hamatito this is not a flame but if your gonna be part of a superpower alliance which has effectively napped 90% of all northern residents you cant expect to find many good fights. Maybe its time you quit the alliance life?
Anyway alot of the people complaining about the POS/SuperBlob warfare are the ones who created it and still continue with it. Plus Jasmines posts win this thread tbh. Everything stated there is completely true. Devs should really read it.
www.beaglecorp.com | Join "BEAGLEPUBLIC" channel ingame. |
Kanae
Minmatar Vogon Deconstruction Fleet Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.13 14:46:00 -
[90]
Snipe question: A lot of people complaining about the dmg here.(somewhat agree with this but only for the switch to short range ammo making this a bit versitile 50km-200km optimals) However, if i get dropped in the middle of snipers in a short range Battleship its all over.
ECM: IMO 10x better than befor when a blackbird could just lock up 2 BS 100%
POS's: I see complaints about thier firepower and reinforced modes but no good answers. IMO its the great equalizer for timezones and blobs.
No good fights: Its all about where you are... most ones I get into are about even with anywhere from 10v10 to 30vs30 been a while since I have been in a "epic" but I dont miss much about the 200vs200 deals.
WCS: I think they are working on this..
ISK sinks: builders need to keep busy and isk farmers need food /shrug
frig vs BS (even dread) jamming: I think this should be integrated into the WCS changes it should be all be a percentage chance BS jammers > crusier jammers > frig jammers but something like frig + wcs > cruisers jammer all weighted factors. This however is not an easy change at all from all angles.
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