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masternerdguy
Inner Shadow Did he say Jump
1792
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Posted - 2014.12.30 02:48:12 -
[1] - Quote
Currently, they are a joke. Which is sad, because if you could get decent remote rep range out of a T3 you could use them in new and exciting ways.
Consider the Tengu's Amplification Node:
Subsystem Skill Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances per level 10% bonus to shield transporter effectiveness per level
The problem is they don't have the range needed to back up their rep amount. Although they rep more than a T2 logi, they rep at <9km range meaning they are impractical for fleet use.
Contrast the bonus on a Basilisk
Caldari Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 150% bonus to Remote Shield Booster and Remote Capacitor Transmitter range 20% bonus to Shield Maintenance Bot transfer amount
They might not rep as much, but they rep so much further that it isn't even a contest in the real world.
The logistics subsystems feel pre-nerfed, and I think, in light of the relatively recent buffs to T1 logi, giving them a significant range bonus via the logistics subsystems would be handy.
I would suggest splitting the bonus into a range bonus of 75% per subsystem level (half what a T2 logi gets per cruiser level) and reducing the effectiveness bonus to 5% or even 3% per level.
Things are only impossible until they are not.
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3210
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Posted - 2014.12.30 03:45:40 -
[2] - Quote
The logistics subsystems kind of are pre-nerfed, as CCP specifically did not want T3s able to step on the toes of Logi ships. A Logi ship can rep from a greater distance while a T3 needs to be closer but has more powerful repping.
If you try to fly a T3 as a more expensive version of a Logi, it's probably going to run into some difficulties. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
366
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Posted - 2014.12.30 05:04:15 -
[3] - Quote
trust me they work and they are extremely powerful and that's before you remember they can fit a Cov ops and be bridged |
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
282
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Posted - 2014.12.30 07:15:42 -
[4] - Quote
This is what they need, and will probably get.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
367
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Posted - 2014.12.30 09:32:59 -
[5] - Quote
if you want range you go logi if you want HP/s you go T3 |
Steppa Musana
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2014.12.30 11:15:52 -
[6] - Quote
working as intended. you get one thing at the cost of another. |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
676
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Posted - 2014.12.30 11:25:51 -
[7] - Quote
Just what EvE needs yet another ship class obsoleted by T3 cruisers.
Not supported.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
640
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Posted - 2014.12.30 11:38:01 -
[8] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:trust me they work and they are extremely powerful and that's before you remember they can fit a Cov ops and be bridged As if that matters anymore. Blops bridging got nerfed real hard.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
368
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Posted - 2014.12.30 11:42:12 -
[9] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:trust me they work and they are extremely powerful and that's before you remember they can fit a Cov ops and be bridged As if that matters anymore. Blops bridging got nerfed real hard.
when did this happen I still do them 2-3 times a week if anything the range buff was a boon |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3211
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Posted - 2014.12.30 12:06:01 -
[10] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:trust me they work and they are extremely powerful and that's before you remember they can fit a Cov ops and be bridged As if that matters anymore. Blops bridging got nerfed real hard. when did this happen I still do them 2-3 times a week if anything the range buff was a boon
Arya is referring to Jump Fatigue as a "hard nerf". |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
368
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Posted - 2014.12.30 12:14:08 -
[11] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Arya is referring to Jump Fatigue as a "hard nerf".
Ah well that's normally all but gone by the time we find the next target and even if we get 5-7 drops by the next day we have none of that. only real change is you manually fly back allot of the time(if you can't use the system you are currently in)
but back on topic still a no the rang is a huge limiting factor with out it i know at least i would use it to drop T3 logi in regular engagements if they started to sour. |
Aran Hotchkiss
Phoibe Enterprises
45
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Posted - 2014.12.30 12:48:12 -
[12] - Quote
Don't have access to numbers but is a 50% bonus to medium reppers larger than unbonused large reppers?
Granted, depends in fitting layout, most logi hulls fit four reps - either 4/0 as your oneiros (I gotta get me one of those once proteus ships) or scimi, or 4/2 as guardian (also gotta get one of those, ironman all the way) or basilisk I guess 5/1 could work but feel free to tell my if I'm talking out of my arse.
In summary - I don't think t3 logi reps as much as t2 does. Which is the point. From what I've heard it excels at spider tanking though, which was probably what it's intended for. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
369
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Posted - 2014.12.30 12:52:03 -
[13] - Quote
They can fit large and up to 6-7 reps so yes they can rep more if they are fed cap |
Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
5
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:27:23 -
[14] - Quote
T3 logi is fine, but i dont like the way it works, you need to anchor to keep it effective and stay at range.
I would love to see a nerfed version of logi on T3, maybe 40-45km max range and less hp/s, you're not the best but you do the job, just as T3 should be. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
371
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Posted - 2014.12.30 21:25:32 -
[15] - Quote
so you hate actually needing to maintain range and piloting your ship?
yes its harder to maintain within range but the HP/s bonus is worth it if you are in a fleet that knows how to stick close and you know what you are doing.
if you want range don't use the T3 if anything this is one of the few ballanced subs |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
563
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Posted - 2014.12.30 21:54:24 -
[16] - Quote
t3 can get a monster tank to compensate for the fact it gets closer to get its job done. Some can anyway.
That tank would probably be its tradeoff. As even if set up in certain scenarios (tinker tank spamming in AT tournaments one example) you are better off bumping ships than calling the t3 primary.
That and if the basis for this is I have to use t2 for ranged reps...that's a good thing. It means logi still has a viable role. Meanwhile in a "hac" configuration....this is where we see the cries of rebalance are strong as unless space poor you get lots of reasons to choose t3 over t2 hac. Some would say too many reasons too in fact. |
Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
6
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Posted - 2014.12.30 22:20:08 -
[17] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:so you hate actually needing to maintain range and piloting your ship?
yes its harder to maintain within range but the HP/s bonus is worth it if you are in a fleet that knows how to stick close and you know what you are doing.
if you want range don't use the T3 if anything this is one of the few ballanced subs
Wahow...Do you understand that most of the time with T3 logi you just orbit them and push F1 ?
Do you call this piloting ? Srly |
Lugh Crow-Slave
371
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Posted - 2014.12.31 01:07:25 -
[18] - Quote
you don't fly logi much do you |
Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
6
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Posted - 2014.12.31 07:13:40 -
[19] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:you don't fly logi much do you
As much as you are.
https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/42447735/ |
Lugh Crow-Slave
374
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Posted - 2014.12.31 07:34:54 -
[20] - Quote
grats you have a KM what's your point? |
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
591
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Posted - 2014.12.31 07:44:49 -
[21] - Quote
Personally. I feel that all remote armour reppers and shield transfers and energy transfers should get their base range doubled and all range bonuses on ships should be halved.
This would fix issues on a few things including the Nestor and T3 logi subs as they still wouldn't have the range of logi but they would have a useable range to work with.
That way fitting a remote repper on something other than a logi isn't dogshitkabab crap.
I miss the good ole days of Remote Rep Battleship fights. Those were fun. |
Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
6
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Posted - 2014.12.31 10:41:33 -
[22] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:grats you have a KM what's your point?
"You dont fly logi much do you"
You're implying that you usually use logi more than i, with this KM i can say that you're not, that's all. |
Sylveria Relden
Relden Enterprises
34
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Posted - 2015.01.01 20:14:19 -
[23] - Quote
T3's are meant to be multi-purpose ships- i.e., "jack of all trades, master of none".
The rebalance they started a while back was meant to stop the overshadowing of T3's being overused for the roles that other ships had been created for.
T3 =/= > T2, it means that T2 is a specialized hull for a particular purpose and the intent of the T3 is that its flexible enough to change those specializations. (hence being able to swap subsystems)
There's a good reason the subsystems of T3's don't match the performance of their T2 hull counterparts.
The prices of T3 hulls and subsystems do NOT reflect the performance- it's reflective of the materials cost in order to produce the parts.
Working as intended. |
Catherine Laartii
Dominion Fleet Group Templis CALSF
453
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Posted - 2015.01.01 22:05:40 -
[24] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Currently, they are a joke. Which is sad, because if you could get decent remote rep range out of a T3 you could use them in new and exciting ways.
Consider the Tengu's Amplification Node:
Subsystem Skill Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances per level 10% bonus to shield transporter effectiveness per level
The problem is they don't have the range needed to back up their rep amount. Although they rep more than a T2 logi, they rep at <9km range meaning they are impractical for fleet use.
Contrast the bonus on a Basilisk
Caldari Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 150% bonus to Remote Shield Booster and Remote Capacitor Transmitter range 20% bonus to Shield Maintenance Bot transfer amount
They might not rep as much, but they rep so much further that it isn't even a contest in the real world.
The logistics subsystems feel pre-nerfed, and I think, in light of the relatively recent buffs to T1 logi, giving them a significant range bonus via the logistics subsystems would be handy.
I would suggest splitting the bonus into a range bonus of 75% per subsystem level (half what a T2 logi gets per cruiser level) and reducing the effectiveness bonus to 5% or even 3% per level.
I think part of the weirdness comes from the weird and incredibly massive difference in fitting space from the large RRs. Large armor RR uses about 500 more grid than the large shield RR, which is patently absurd in relation to how local repair and buffer modules are balanced. I think if they were brought down to the 200-300 pg range something like that might be acceptable, so we could see bonuses like this for the tengu, and similar armor swapped bonuses for the legion:
Subsystem skill bonus: 20% bonus to Remote Shield Booster and Remote Capacitor Transmitter range per level 10% bonus to Remote Shield Booster and Remote Capacitor Transmitter amount per level 10% reduction in Remote Shield Booster and Remote Capacitor Transmitter capacitor usage per level |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2155
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Posted - 2015.01.01 23:33:52 -
[25] - Quote
Logistics modules need a huge range bonus. The dedicated ships shouldn't need more than a 50%-100% range bonus over the base range in order to reach out as far as they need. Logistics modules are already pretty much useless on anything other than a hull that's built for them, which contrasts heavily with all other utility high slot modules.
Strategic cruisers have excellent strategic options for employing logistics, as previously indicated in this thread. They should not repair faster than a T2 logi, that is absurd. T2 is supposed to have the top end of the raw power struggle every time. T3 should have T1 repair rate at half the range, with the ability to fit covert ops cloak and all those other fancy choices. Now THAT would be balanced.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2155
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Posted - 2015.01.01 23:40:13 -
[26] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:I think part of the weirdness comes from the weird and incredibly massive difference in fitting space from the large RRs. Large armor RR uses about 500 more grid than the large shield RR, which is patently absurd in relation to how local repair and buffer modules are balanced. Actually the large modules are supposed to be fit on large ships. How they came to be fit to medium logi is a mystery to me but I think that medium logi should use medium modules. I think that powergrid cost reduction should be removed from T2 logi ships.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
629
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Posted - 2015.01.02 00:22:23 -
[27] - Quote
Sylveria Relden wrote:T3's are meant to be multi-purpose ships- i.e., "jack of all trades, master of none".
The rebalance they started a while back was meant to stop the overshadowing of T3's being overused for the roles that other ships had been created for.
T3 =/= > T2, it means that T2 is a specialized hull for a particular purpose and the intent of the T3 is that its flexible enough to change those specializations. (hence being able to swap subsystems)
There's a good reason the subsystems of T3's don't match the performance of their T2 hull counterparts.
The prices of T3 hulls and subsystems do NOT reflect the performance- it's reflective of the materials cost in order to produce the parts.
Working as intended.
Can we finally get a thread about T3s without the age old rhetoric dredged up in every single thread?? Thank you!
T3 logi sub needs help, double the default repper range would make them useable without making it outclass logistics.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2158
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Posted - 2015.01.02 00:42:47 -
[28] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:T3 logi sub needs help, double the default repper range would make them useable without making it outclass logistics. No nerf to the output along with the range boost? Surely You're Joking.
T3 Strategic Shuttle | T3 Flexible Battleship
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Sylveria Relden
Relden Enterprises
36
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Posted - 2015.01.02 00:45:49 -
[29] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:T3 logi sub needs help, double the default repper range would make them useable without making it outclass logistics. No nerf to the output along with the range boost? Surely You're Joking.
I see what you did there ^ :P |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
629
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Posted - 2015.01.02 01:11:23 -
[30] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:T3 logi sub needs help, double the default repper range would make them useable without making it outclass logistics. No nerf to the output along with the range boost? Surely You're Joking.
I never joke. And don't call me Shirley.
Back on a serious note, a minor balance of the HP subsystem is all that is needed to balance some T3s (basically make the 10% HP bonus a 5% HP bonus).
No other nerfs would be necessary, in my opinion. After all, we're playing Ishtars Online right now, not Proteii Online.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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