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Antony Ottig
Fractal Industries Shadow of xXDEATHXx
2
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Posted - 2016.04.19 19:49:10 -
[6061] - Quote
Arya Ikahrus wrote:Dictateur Imperator wrote:Arya Ikahrus wrote:Problem: AFK cloakers in local scaring the residents. Solution: cloaking removes you from local. Problem: you can't kill true AFK cloaker he is invincible. Solution: remove cloak. Problem: you can't kill AFK cloaker. Solution: AFK cloaker can't kill you either...
Yeah but he can't kill you becouse he's AFK ))) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4830
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Posted - 2016.04.19 19:54:41 -
[6062] - Quote
Antony Ottig wrote:Arya Ikahrus wrote:Dictateur Imperator wrote:Arya Ikahrus wrote:Problem: AFK cloakers in local scaring the residents. Solution: cloaking removes you from local. Problem: you can't kill true AFK cloaker he is invincible. Solution: remove cloak. Problem: you can't kill AFK cloaker. Solution: AFK cloaker can't kill you either... Yeah but he can't kill you becouse he's AFK )))
Can't kill you while cloaked either. Can only kill you while ATK and while uncloaked...just like you.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
4
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Posted - 2016.04.20 08:20:06 -
[6063] - Quote
just wanted to point out that:
-skill injectors made this a lot worse as a single multiboxer can fabricate new chars in a day and camp half a dozen systems
-as you(CCP) said, all aspects of this topic have been chewed to the bone. this means the ball is in your court to either make a change or release a final statement |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4830
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Posted - 2016.04.20 16:35:23 -
[6064] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:just wanted to point out that:
-skill injectors made this a lot worse as a single multiboxer can fabricate new chars in a day and camp half a dozen systems
-as you(CCP) said, all aspects of this topic have been chewed to the bone. this means the ball is in your court to either make a change or release a final statement
Based on everything I've read I think the plan so far is:
1. Remove local. 2. Put in the observatory array. 3. Make cloaked ships vulnerable to scan, given an observatory array is present.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Ligraph
Metallurgy Incorporated
12
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Posted - 2016.04.20 20:04:40 -
[6065] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Based on everything I've read I think the plan so far is:
1. Remove local. 2. Put in the observatory array. 3. Make cloaked ships vulnerable to scan, given an observatory array is present.
I think this is a good balance.
But I hope you have to have access to the Observatory Array or something similar to be able to scan down cloakers, and that it takes near-perfect skills to scan a well skilled covops frig.
Fuzzy cloaking
Wormhole Stabilizer citadels
Cloaky Fleet Transport
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4830
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Posted - 2016.04.20 20:39:36 -
[6066] - Quote
Ligraph wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Based on everything I've read I think the plan so far is:
1. Remove local. 2. Put in the observatory array. 3. Make cloaked ships vulnerable to scan, given an observatory array is present.
I think this is a good balance. But I hope you have to have access to the Observatory Array or something similar to be able to scan down cloakers, and that it takes near-perfect skills to scan a well skilled covops frig.
My guess is it will take longer to scan down a cloaked ship and you'll likely alert the person being cloaked, or there is the potential to alert them (e.g. scan probes are out). That way an ATK cloaker should be able to stay more than one step ahead of a scanner, but going AFK will be a sure death.
At the same time this ability and intel in general will become vulnerable via the observatory array which is a structure that will either be shot or entosised, or even both. Shooting destroys it, using an entosis link will let you subvert it (e.g. the person using an entosis link now appears to be "blue" for a period of time).
There was even some discussion of allowing for networked OAs so you could get some intel in say the system "next door". So in a way a buff for intel.
People could all sorts of fun with this, and when your system is quiet and secure you can rat knowing that you'll never have to deal with an AFK cloaker again.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Orion Supernova
Black Scorpions Inc The Bastion
3
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Posted - 2016.04.21 11:56:54 -
[6067] - Quote
I can't believe nothing has been done about this issue.
I thought the idea of fozzie sov was to reward those that are active in the space, how can that be true when to drop an ADM before an assault all you have to do is create / log on a veritable army of alts and sit them cloaked up camping every system, preventing activity.
These stealth bombers, stratios, cov ops, covert recons and virtually anything that can hold a cloaking device of some description sit in system with a cyno on their ship, training their accounts preventing the actual game play.
Is this what eve is to become, a game with a sov system that is ignored and useless because every null system worth having has a cloaky camper in it? All that person has to do is decloak every so often and hot drop someone and the activity in that system dries up for days to weeks faster than a nun's nasty when she hears the lords name taken in vain.
Fix the damned system already.
*Give citadels a mod, (with a huge cycle time like 10 mins) the ability to scan down cloaky ships as long as there are three of them in range of the target.
* Make cloaks gather a charge over time so that after a certain amount of time you slowly become more easily Probable. Decloaking dissipates that charge.
*Make it so that cloaks use a fuel of some sort.
Just do something, otherwise this is going to be a game where all alliances live in low sec, and half the universe stands empty because no-one can hold null for any great length of time.
You've got a good system with fozzie sov, im enjoying it. But let me enjoy it, let me play fozzie sov the way it's ment to be played. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
136
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Posted - 2016.04.21 15:21:51 -
[6068] - Quote
Orion Supernova wrote:I can't believe nothing has been done about this issue.
I thought the idea of fozzie sov was to reward those that are active in the space, how can that be true when to drop an ADM before an assault all you have to do is create / log on a veritable army of alts and sit them cloaked up camping every system, preventing activity.
These stealth bombers, stratios, cov ops, covert recons and virtually anything that can hold a cloaking device of some description sit in system with a cyno on their ship, training their accounts preventing the actual game play.
Is this what eve is to become, a game with a sov system that is ignored and useless because every null system worth having has a cloaky camper in it? All that person has to do is decloak every so often and hot drop someone and the activity in that system dries up for days to weeks faster than a nun's nasty when she hears the lords name taken in vain.
Fix the damned system already.
*Give citadels a mod, (with a huge cycle time like 10 mins) the ability to scan down cloaky ships as long as there are three of them in range of the target.
* Make cloaks gather a charge over time so that after a certain amount of time you slowly become more easily Probable. Decloaking dissipates that charge.
*Make it so that cloaks use a fuel of some sort.
Just do something, otherwise this is going to be a game where all alliances live in low sec, and half the universe stands empty because no-one can hold null for any great length of time.
You've got a good system with fozzie sov, im enjoying it. But let me enjoy it, let me play fozzie sov the way it's ment to be played.
How does it prevent gameplay? Someone AFK by definition can't hurt you. If they decloak, just counter attack.
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
5
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Posted - 2016.04.21 16:24:59 -
[6069] - Quote
so far the neverending argument of cloakers is "herp derp: my cloak doesn't hurt you so why nerf it?"
but seriously, the philosophy of ganking pve players is that they have a false sense of safety and put their billion isk ships out in space without escort. and the "duty" of gankers is to remind them that EVE is not safe*
*unless you want to go AFK for days in a system others spent trillions of isk and weeks of time to gain control over. |
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
79
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Posted - 2016.04.21 19:03:15 -
[6070] - Quote
If I would believe that cloakers believe their own arguments, then I would really wonder why they want to keep cloaky camping. According to their bullshit logic, cloaky camping has basically no effect anyway, so why is it so extremely important for them to keep it?
Of course I know that they do not really believe in what they say, so there is no point in actually asking that question. |
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
140
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Posted - 2016.04.21 19:39:45 -
[6071] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:so far the neverending argument of cloakers is "herp derp: my cloak doesn't hurt you so why nerf it?" but seriously, the philosophy of ganking pve players is that they have a false sense of safety and put their billion isk ships out in space without escort. and the "duty" of gankers is to remind them that EVE is not safe* *unless you want to go AFK for days in a system others spent trillions of isk and weeks of time to gain control over.
If you are in nullsec, wouldn't you be in a standing defense fleet that can come take down the gankers anyway?
The issue is bigger than AFK camping for blops. That's a fairly small part of why people use cloaks in game, and you want a massive nerf to all cloaking to change one small subset of the game.
I like the idea (in null only) that you don't have local, unless you have a certain type of deployable structure that adds it. That structure grants local as well as the ability to scan for cloaked ships after a certain period of time, but it can also be knocked offline as well. Leave HS/LS/WHs alone. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4830
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Posted - 2016.04.22 16:31:29 -
[6072] - Quote
Orion Supernova wrote:I can't believe nothing has been done about this issue.
I thought the idea of fozzie sov was to reward those that are active in the space, how can that be true when to drop an ADM before an assault all you have to do is create / log on a veritable army of alts and sit them cloaked up camping every system, preventing activity.
These stealth bombers, stratios, cov ops, covert recons and virtually anything that can hold a cloaking device of some description sit in system with a cyno on their ship, training their accounts preventing the actual game play.
Is this what eve is to become, a game with a sov system that is ignored and useless because every null system worth having has a cloaky camper in it? All that person has to do is decloak every so often and hot drop someone and the activity in that system dries up for days to weeks faster than a nun's nasty when she hears the lords name taken in vain.
Fix the damned system already.
*Give citadels a mod, (with a huge cycle time like 10 mins) the ability to scan down cloaky ships as long as there are three of them in range of the target.
* Make cloaks gather a charge over time so that after a certain amount of time you slowly become more easily Probable. Decloaking dissipates that charge.
*Make it so that cloaks use a fuel of some sort.
Just do something, otherwise this is going to be a game where all alliances live in low sec, and half the universe stands empty because no-one can hold null for any great length of time.
You've got a good system with fozzie sov, im enjoying it. But let me enjoy it, let me play fozzie sov the way it's ment to be played.
Stop whining and figure out a solution. A number have been posted here. Here are two you can try and use.
1. Work in a fleet. Yes, getting ADMs up is good and you can try it solo or you can work together. The latter nullifies the "army of alts."
2. If it is an army of alts, try and determine if he is AFK or ATK.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4830
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Posted - 2016.04.22 16:38:41 -
[6073] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:
*unless you want to go AFK for days in a system others spent trillions of isk and weeks of time to gain control over.
Or you could...you know change your behavior to nullify the effect of a single guy cloaked and AFK in your system.
Here, let me help you:
You get 5 buddies together. Fit up your ratting ishtars with a more PvP oriented tank. You could even put on remote reps, remote cap transfer, and/or neuts in the high slots.
Start burning down sanctums and havens in short order because with 6 ishtars shooting the rats it will go damn fast. If that guy in a cloak comes back to his key board and he doesn't have a cyno and people he can ping he will not engage you.
If he does have guys he can ping, he may still not engage you unless he can bring enough people to wipe out your gang. And ishtars with heavy drones can put out a surprising amount of DPS. So they'll either need a LOT of bombers or ships that can tank the DPS.
You worked together to get the system, but then everyone goes full ret*rd and does stuff solo and then complain about people taking advantage of such silly behavior.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Alternate Allegiance
937
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Posted - 2016.04.22 17:12:06 -
[6074] - Quote
Being in a system to kill ADM's---No problem
Being potentially on the hunt---No problem
Having an affect on people while AFK--Problem
The idea of sitting and watching is good,ambushing is good, it should just require the same vigilance from both parties.
I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
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Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
79
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Posted - 2016.04.22 17:17:33 -
[6075] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: single guy cloaked and AFK in your system (...)
You get 5 buddies together. Fit up your ratting ishtars with a more PvP oriented tank. You could even put on remote reps, remote cap transfer, and/or neuts in the high slots.
Cant you see that this is the problem? On the one side you have a single guy, who literally does nothing and risks nothing, and the people on the other side are supposed to change their whole playstyle and center it around that one guy, taking a massive loss in income, and still are not being able to do anything against him, just lower their risk.
This is incredible imbalanced. Probably the most imbalanced situation in this whole game. One single guy. Doing nothing. Risking nothing. Paying next to nothing. Affects a whole group of people of have absolutely no way of stopping him.
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
7
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Posted - 2016.04.22 17:19:28 -
[6076] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Daniel Ornulf wrote:
*unless you want to go AFK for days in a system others spent trillions of isk and weeks of time to gain control over.
Or you could...you know change your behavior to nullify the effect of a single guy cloaked and AFK in your system. .
nice theorycrafting, but looking at the efficiency of blops on zkillboard it's obviously not viable to counterdrop them all the time.
unless you're saying the entire EVE community sucks at playing the game. |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Alternate Allegiance
937
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Posted - 2016.04.22 17:26:38 -
[6077] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:[quote=Daniel Ornulf]
*unless you want to go AFK for days in a system others spent trillions of isk and weeks of time to gain control over. Or you could...you know change your behavior to nullify the effect of a single guy cloaked and AFK in your system. .
Thing is buddy you are not nullifying the effect of one guy. You are nullifying the effect of the 7 blops BS behind him, or is it a trio of supercarriers. Perhaps it's nothing but a cloaky entosis? You can't nullify anything if you have no notice of what appears.
I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
251
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Posted - 2016.04.22 17:26:56 -
[6078] - Quote
Marranar Amatin wrote: One single guy. Doing nothing. Risking nothing. Paying next to nothing.
He is paying 40 mil a day to be there. And .... it's not just one guy. If it's one guy, shoot him! If it's a blops, then it's a fleet.
Rehashed ad nauseum. Please read the thread. |
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
79
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Posted - 2016.04.22 17:32:11 -
[6079] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:If it's one guy, shoot him!
Yeah that option would be great. too bad he is invincible.
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
251
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Posted - 2016.04.22 17:33:26 -
[6080] - Quote
He did PAY for the ability to engage first. Rapier: 200 mil. Bellicose: 10 mil. That's 190 mil for a long web an the ability to pick engagements. |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4831
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Posted - 2016.04.22 17:36:39 -
[6081] - Quote
Marranar Amatin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: single guy cloaked and AFK in your system (...)
You get 5 buddies together. Fit up your ratting ishtars with a more PvP oriented tank. You could even put on remote reps, remote cap transfer, and/or neuts in the high slots. Cant you see that this is the problem? On the one side you have a single guy, who literally does nothing and risks nothing, and the people on the other side are supposed to change their whole playstyle and center it around that one guy, taking a massive loss in income, and still are not being able to do anything against him, just lower their risk. This is incredible imbalanced. Probably the most imbalanced situation in this whole game. One single guy. Doing nothing. Risking nothing. Paying next to nothing. Affects a whole group of people of have absolutely no way of stopping him.
I don't see it as a problem.
We have already gone over the "One single guy. Doing nothing. Risking nothing. Paying next to nothing." quite a bit and it is Bravo Sierra.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4831
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Posted - 2016.04.22 17:37:45 -
[6082] - Quote
Marranar Amatin wrote:Brokk Witgenstein wrote:If it's one guy, shoot him! Yeah that option would be great. too bad he is invincible.
Yeah, and he can't shoot you either now can he?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4831
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Posted - 2016.04.22 17:48:00 -
[6083] - Quote
Christopher AET wrote:Daniel Ornulf wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:[quote=Daniel Ornulf]
*unless you want to go AFK for days in a system others spent trillions of isk and weeks of time to gain control over. Or you could...you know change your behavior to nullify the effect of a single guy cloaked and AFK in your system. . Thing is buddy you are not nullifying the effect of one guy. You are nullifying the effect of the 7 blops BS behind him, or is it a trio of supercarriers. Perhaps it's nothing but a cloaky entosis? You can't nullify anything if you have no notice of what appears.
Supers?
Yeah, people dropping supers with jump range nerfs and fatigue. Sure.
And yeah, 7 blops BS vs. 6 ishtars...I love how the people arguing for a nerf to cloaks ALWAYS make it so that they can never win.
That cloaked guy MUST have a cyno. That cloaked guy MUST have an N+1 fleet where N is ALWAYS large enough to ensure victory. And that cloaked guy who has been logged in for 8 hours already is ALWAYS at his keyboard.
If those three things are always true, here is my advice. Cancel your subscription and uninstall the game.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4831
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Posted - 2016.04.22 17:57:31 -
[6084] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:
nice theorycrafting, but looking at the efficiency of blops on zkillboard it's obviously not viable to counterdrop them all the time.
unless you're saying the entire EVE community sucks at playing the game.
OMG, you were killed by statistics. How sad.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
8
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Posted - 2016.04.22 18:02:49 -
[6085] - Quote
for the love of God can we stop pretending to be ignorant?
you can't evaluate risk based on whether the guy is afk or not and has a cyno or not because you can't know these things and if those conditions are met and you start ratting, you have a 100% chance of dying.
and no, countering a drop doesn't work, because if it did, zkillboard wouldn't show the current efficiency for blops. please stop fabricating these skewed arguments, they're useless
PS: your snappy sarcastic replies won't make you look cool. by the numbers, hotdropping has less risk than station trading |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Alternate Allegiance
937
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Posted - 2016.04.22 18:06:16 -
[6086] - Quote
^^^
This
The cloaked ship ALWAYS gets to choose the engagement. The non cloaked ship does not.
I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4831
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Posted - 2016.04.22 18:24:14 -
[6087] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:for the love of God can we stop pretending to be ignorant?
you can't evaluate risk based on whether the guy is afk or not and has a cyno or not because you can't know these things and if those conditions are met and you start ratting, you have a 100% chance of dying.
and no, countering a drop doesn't work, because if it did, zkillboard wouldn't show the current efficiency for blops. please stop fabricating these skewed arguments, they're useless
PS: your snappy sarcastic replies won't make you look cool. by the numbers, hotdropping has less risk than station trading
Your stupid over-exaggerating won't make you look cool either. Nobody has ever died doing just station trading. People have died during a BLOPs drop. There was even a rather funny article about how a BLOPs gang was nearly wiped out by a guy who was AFK in a carrier and ratting. His gecko's came back and slaughtered the BLOPs gang.
Second, apparently you don't understand statistics. You might have studied it, maybe even use it, but your grasp is quite poor. Yes, a BLOPs is going to have a high efficiency rating. Why? Because it is used to kill **** and pretty much only for PvP. An ishtar or many other ships are used in ways that are not PvP. Also, they tend to go for targets they know they can take. So yeah, they have a high efficiency rating, so what? And there is more than one way to counter something than shooting it. Inducing them to move on to another, softer looking target is a counter.
As for evaluating risk, I detailed how you get a good idea if a guy is AFK or not.
First, do some research you lazy buggers. What TZ is that guy getting his kills in? Are you in his TZ? If not, good chance he is AFK.
Second, if you try to bait him repeatedly....chances are he is AFK. In fact, you could use Bayes theorem to come up with some probabilities.
If you have a high probability he is AFK, then you CAN make a risk assessment.
I describe a situation like this where I have ratted for days in a system with a cloaky camper.
1. He was in a different TZ. 2. After trying to bait him in a very soft target I concluded he was indeed most likely in bed asleep. 3. I ratted day-after-day while he was in system with me. I lost nothing.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4831
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Posted - 2016.04.22 18:32:12 -
[6088] - Quote
Christopher AET wrote:^^^
This
The cloaked ship ALWAYS gets to choose the engagement. The non cloaked ship does not.
Yes, I believe the phrase is, "working as intended." And only in the context where the cloaked ship is in system and at a safe. Otherwise no.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4831
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Posted - 2016.04.22 18:42:13 -
[6089] - Quote
And....if you are getting dropped. Nobody is AFK. So, off topic. This is the permanent thread for AFK cloaking, not ATK cloaking.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
151
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Posted - 2016.04.22 18:47:17 -
[6090] - Quote
Christopher AET wrote:^^^
This
The cloaked ship ALWAYS gets to choose the engagement. The non cloaked ship does not.
And 100% of the time, they choose the solo player who refuses to get on comms and get in a fleet. If people were in defense fleets and on comms 100% of the time, drops wouldn't happen.
Hell, I've dropped out of a WH into null, seen a 30 man mining fleet that takes 30 minutes to even notice me in local. I've given up on living in nullsec because every group I tried to join had a fraction of people on voicecomms, and a big chunk never in a fleet.
Isn't nullsec supposed to be difficult? Get in a fleet, get friends. |
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