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Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
157
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Posted - 2016.04.28 21:33:48 -
[6121] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Dictateur Imperator wrote:You have no stat about WH life published in real time like 0.0? You can lock all entrence of you're WH by collapse it. Give same info for WH and 0.0 and give ability to go in you're WH for 5 M isk per ship. count how many time wh life will be fun.
Compare thing is good if you compare thing you can compare, if you like WH go in wh, stop want to impose you're gameplay to other. CCP will nerf perma cloack with observatory and it will be good end of discussion :)
More over be perma cloack to make moral harassment is illegal in a lot of country, and some country have a definition of game mechanic... pro hint: Prma cloack for make harassment is maybe not legal in some country due to defintion of game mechanic, and EULA of CCP don't change this. ( i know a country to be part of game mechanic it must be balance and have a VIABLE counter, you don't see problem with perma clocking really?). "harassment" how many times have you been killed by someone with a cloak active? How many times have anyone killed anyone, while doing any other activity than PVP?
The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
179
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Posted - 2016.04.28 21:37:00 -
[6122] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote:How many times have anyone killed anyone, while doing any other activity than PVP?
If someone can't earn ISK and can't kill someone while they are AFK, I'm more than OK with it being in game. AFK cloaking can't earn isk and can't kill anyone. |
Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
9
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Posted - 2016.04.29 00:24:37 -
[6123] - Quote
Quote:If someone can't earn ISK and can't kill someone while they are AFK, I'm more than OK with it being in game. AFK cloaking can't earn isk and can't kill anyone.
"my cloak isn't hurting you" is the same dumb excuse as putting a knife at someone's throat and "why are you yelling, I'm not hurting you".
if you want to remain in a situation that forces dozens of others to stay on high alert 24/7 then so should you be.
give citadels a mod to slowly scan cloaked players if they don't move for long periods. |
Moonacre Parmala
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2016.04.29 04:17:08 -
[6124] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:Quote:If someone can't earn ISK and can't kill someone while they are AFK, I'm more than OK with it being in game. AFK cloaking can't earn isk and can't kill anyone. "my cloak isn't hurting you" is the same dumb excuse as putting a knife at someone's throat and "why are you yelling, I'm not hurting you". if you want to remain in a situation that forces dozens of others to stay on high alert 24/7 then so should you be. give citadels a mod to slowly scan cloaked players if they don't move for long periods.
Exactly.
If they're cloaked and AFK then they should be at the same risk as sitting in a belt AFK. If you're cloaked and AFK and causing a nuisance then there should be a price, even if it's npc's warping on top of you, disturbing your cloak and then popping your ship for being a pain in the a$$.
If you're scouting / preforming recon/ sneaking up on someone you're not AFK, and i get that sometimes you will have to wait around for a target.... BUT if you're sat in a system, causing people to remain overstressed and on edge whilst you're cloaked and then go AFK....well you're causing significant disruption to others whilst not at risk, and that is the point i'm making. You can cause massive disruption but without any need to do anything, and it isn't "COUNTER-ABLE"
Having fleet protection and rapid response on comms is not a counter to an AFK cloaker. It's a reaction to a valid threat. The fact the person poses a threat by being there is good, they help you keep your skills high, but if they're AFK they're not playing!!!!!! |
Mark Letuse
Heavy Industries Biotechnic Yelm Experiment DRONE WALKERS
1
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Posted - 2016.04.29 09:09:26 -
[6125] - Quote
I agree with this statment |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
182
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Posted - 2016.04.29 17:53:41 -
[6126] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:"my cloak isn't hurting you" is the same dumb excuse as putting a knife at someone's throat and "why are you yelling, I'm not hurting you".
if you want to remain in a situation that forces dozens of others to stay on high alert 24/7 then so should you be.
give citadels a mod to slowly scan cloaked players if they don't move for long periods.
Choosing to live outside of HS is choosing to be on high alert 24/7.
Why should you get 100% risk free intel (local) in what is supposed to be one of the more challenging parts of space without having to be on alert?
Do you really not stay on alert in null? What if a WH opens up? What if someone is logged off in system waiting for people to get complacent? What if someone has a JC in your station waiting to activate it? What if someone is on the other side of a gate?
You CHOSE to live in an area of space that you own and control. Deal with the consequences of that decision. If you don't want risk, get out of 0.0.
Moonacre Parmala wrote:Exactly.
If they're cloaked and AFK then they should be at the same risk as sitting in a belt AFK. If you're cloaked and AFK and causing a nuisance then there should be a price, even if it's npc's warping on top of you, disturbing your cloak and then popping your ship for being a pain in the a$$.
If you're scouting / preforming recon/ sneaking up on someone you're not AFK, and i get that sometimes you will have to wait around for a target.... BUT if you're sat in a system, causing people to remain overstressed and on edge whilst you're cloaked and then go AFK....well you're causing significant disruption to others whilst not at risk, and that is the point i'm making. You can cause massive disruption but without any need to do anything, and it isn't "COUNTER-ABLE"
Having fleet protection and rapid response on comms is not a counter to an AFK cloaker. It's a reaction to a valid threat. The fact the person poses a threat by being there is good, they help you keep your skills high, but if they're AFK they're not playing!!!!!!
Except this is completely wrong. An AFK cloaker poses zero threat. The potential fleet they might cyno in is the threat. In null, there is zero excuse to not have a standing fleet ready to counter any threat at any time. That's what comes with owning your own space.
Anyone who gets stressed about a single neutral in null simply isn't taking the steps literally everyone in every nullsec corp should take to make sure they are safe.
With respect, it sounds like you don't really want to live in null. It sounds like you want the benefits without having to defend the space. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4838
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 18:52:26 -
[6127] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Dictateur Imperator wrote:You have no stat about WH life published in real time like 0.0? You can lock all entrence of you're WH by collapse it. Give same info for WH and 0.0 and give ability to go in you're WH for 5 M isk per ship. count how many time wh life will be fun.
Compare thing is good if you compare thing you can compare, if you like WH go in wh, stop want to impose you're gameplay to other. CCP will nerf perma cloack with observatory and it will be good end of discussion :)
More over be perma cloack to make moral harassment is illegal in a lot of country, and some country have a definition of game mechanic... pro hint: Prma cloack for make harassment is maybe not legal in some country due to defintion of game mechanic, and EULA of CCP don't change this. ( i know a country to be part of game mechanic it must be balance and have a VIABLE counter, you don't see problem with perma clocking really?). "harassment" how many times have you been killed by someone with a cloak active?
Not to mention the implication that using a cloak is immoral. For the pity's sake....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
9
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Posted - 2016.04.29 18:53:41 -
[6128] - Quote
LOL talking about risk when sitting safe and cozy in a 30mil ship looking for free kills.
you haven't countered any arguments, just derailed it, now go back to playing the game.
ah right...I forgot...you prefer to AFK |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4838
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 18:54:26 -
[6129] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:Quote:If someone can't earn ISK and can't kill someone while they are AFK, I'm more than OK with it being in game. AFK cloaking can't earn isk and can't kill anyone. "my cloak isn't hurting you" is the same dumb excuse as putting a knife at someone's throat and "why are you yelling, I'm not hurting you". if you want to remain in a situation that forces dozens of others to stay on high alert 24/7 then so should you be. give citadels a mod to slowly scan cloaked players if they don't move for long periods.
He didn't say it didn't impose costs, but that a person utilizing this tactic is not earning ISK nor is he getting kills. This is true and no matter your level of outrage it will remain true.
Now, if you want to discuss this logically and without the Bravo Sierra emotional outburst that might help.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4838
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Posted - 2016.04.29 18:59:51 -
[6130] - Quote
Moonacre Parmala wrote:Daniel Ornulf wrote:Quote:If someone can't earn ISK and can't kill someone while they are AFK, I'm more than OK with it being in game. AFK cloaking can't earn isk and can't kill anyone. "my cloak isn't hurting you" is the same dumb excuse as putting a knife at someone's throat and "why are you yelling, I'm not hurting you". if you want to remain in a situation that forces dozens of others to stay on high alert 24/7 then so should you be. give citadels a mod to slowly scan cloaked players if they don't move for long periods. Exactly. If they're cloaked and AFK then they should be at the same risk as sitting in a belt AFK. If you're cloaked and AFK and causing a nuisance then there should be a price, even if it's npc's warping on top of you, disturbing your cloak and then popping your ship for being a pain in the a$$. If you're scouting / preforming recon/ sneaking up on someone you're not AFK, and i get that sometimes you will have to wait around for a target.... BUT if you're sat in a system, causing people to remain overstressed and on edge whilst you're cloaked and then go AFK....well you're causing significant disruption to others whilst not at risk, and that is the point i'm making. You can cause massive disruption but without any need to do anything, and it isn't "COUNTER-ABLE" Having fleet protection and rapid response on comms is not a counter to an AFK cloaker. It's a reaction to a valid threat. The fact the person poses a threat by being there is good, they help you keep your skills high, but if they're AFK they're not playing!!!!!!
Sure you can counter it. Get in the standing fleet. There, countered. You can also look at his killboard and find out when he is most likely ATK and AFK.
And here...let me ask this question:
Does baiting work?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
268
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Posted - 2016.04.29 19:01:17 -
[6131] - Quote
Stealthy recon ships doing stealthy recon work. The audacity. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4838
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Posted - 2016.04.29 19:04:20 -
[6132] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:LOL talking about risk when sitting safe and cozy in a 30mil ship looking for free kills.
you haven't countered any arguments, just derailed it, now go back to playing the game.
ah right...I forgot...you prefer to AFK
I'm kinda fascinated by the way you guys can lie...it's not actually lying, just ignoring obvious parts of the truth to make your bs argument. must be fun at court rooms
If I am AFK in my cloaked ship...how am I getting "free" kills?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
9
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Posted - 2016.04.29 19:05:28 -
[6133] - Quote
Quote:If I am AFK in my cloaked ship...how am I getting "free" kills?
"if I hold a knife at someone's throat, why does police arrest me?" |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4838
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Posted - 2016.04.29 19:07:31 -
[6134] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:Quote:If I am AFK in my cloaked ship...how am I getting "free" kills? "if I hold a knife at someone's throat, why does police arrest me?"
Now that is just plain old vanilla stupid.
Also, noting you did not answer the question...almost surely because it highlights the stupidity inherent in your claim.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4838
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Posted - 2016.04.29 19:08:41 -
[6135] - Quote
Again, the questions are:
1. If I am AFK how am I getting free kills? 2. Does baiting work?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
9
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Posted - 2016.04.29 19:10:29 -
[6136] - Quote
"hey, I'm not doing anything, just carefully holding my knife at your throat, go on with your day don't let me bother you" |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4838
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Posted - 2016.04.29 19:16:42 -
[6137] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:"hey, I'm not doing anything, just carefully holding my knife at your throat, go on with your day don't let me bother you"
You are stuck on stupid.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
187
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Posted - 2016.04.29 19:25:49 -
[6138] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:LOL talking about risk when sitting safe and cozy in a 30mil ship looking for free kills.
you haven't countered any arguments, just derailed it, now go back to playing the game.
ah right...I forgot...you prefer to AFK
I'm kinda fascinated by the way you guys can lie...it's not actually lying, just ignoring obvious parts of the truth to make your bs argument. must be fun at court rooms
The 30mil cloaked ship isn't what they are risking. It's the several billion ISK in ships they bring in for a hot drop. Thats into your home systems! Be on alert and get a few billion isk killed. One more time, the cloaked ship isn't the risk, what the cyno brings through is. That's a LOT of isk to risk on field.
The irony is I'm sitting here defending cloaky campers as nearly a 100% PvE guy.... |
Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
9
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 20:15:09 -
[6139] - Quote
Quote:The irony is I'm sitting here defending cloaky campers as nearly a 100% PvE guy....
that explains why you have no clue what it's like to be in a standing fleet or what it exactly takes to counter a drop (and why it's not viable against campers).
sorry to burst your bubble, but the scenarios you make up in your head don't work in reality. it's OK, we all do it, it's nothing to be ashamed of, and when you try playing the game yourself you'll realize this.
have a great day! |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4839
|
Posted - 2016.04.29 20:16:41 -
[6140] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Daniel Ornulf wrote:LOL talking about risk when sitting safe and cozy in a 30mil ship looking for free kills.
you haven't countered any arguments, just derailed it, now go back to playing the game.
ah right...I forgot...you prefer to AFK
I'm kinda fascinated by the way you guys can lie...it's not actually lying, just ignoring obvious parts of the truth to make your bs argument. must be fun at court rooms The 30mil cloaked ship isn't what they are risking. It's the several billion ISK in ships they bring in for a hot drop. Thats into your home systems! Be on alert and get a few billion isk killed. One more time, the cloaked ship isn't the risk, what the cyno brings through is. That's a LOT of isk to risk on field. The irony is I'm sitting here defending cloaky campers as nearly a 100% PvE guy....
By the way, there is some serious logic problems here. If they can light the cyno, and ships bridge in...they are not AFK, they are ATK.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4839
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Posted - 2016.04.29 20:23:51 -
[6141] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:Quote:The irony is I'm sitting here defending cloaky campers as nearly a 100% PvE guy.... that explains why you have no clue what it's like to be in a standing fleet or what it exactly takes to counter a drop (and why it's not viable against campers). sorry to burst your bubble, but the scenarios you make up in your head don't work in reality. it's OK, we all do it, it's nothing to be ashamed of, and when you try playing the game yourself you'll realize this. have a great day!
Sure they work.
10 guys in a system, on voice comms, in the same fleet have very little to fear from a cloaked ship. Especially if you buddy up.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
717
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Posted - 2016.04.29 20:43:06 -
[6142] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:that explains why you have no clue what it's like to be in a standing fleet or what it exactly takes to counter a drop (and why it's not viable against campers).
sorry to burst your bubble, but the scenarios you make up in your head don't work in reality. it's OK, we all do it, it's nothing to be ashamed of, and when you try playing the game yourself you'll realize this.
have a great day!
I tried to give up on this thread 50 pages ago, but like a fat man to cake, it's drawing me back in.
I've live in HS, LS, null and WHs. I've played for over four years now. 90% of the time, less than half of corpmates in nullsec corps are both in a standing defense fleet, on comms and have a PvP ship ready to go in in-system POSes to quickly reship for a counter-drop. The sheer amount of carebears who simply refuse to want to defend themselves is a big reason why I left null for good.
In my corp now, if I was active (anywhere but HS) and wasn't in a standing fleet and on comms, my own corp would neut me out as a warning, and if I didn't listen and join up on fleet/comms, they would blow up my ship as punishment for not taking home security seriously, even if I was just doing some low key PvE.
As it should be anywhere outside of HS.
It's OK though, its nothing to be ashamed of, once you join a group thats actually prepared and organized to live outside of HS you'll realize this. |
Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
9
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Posted - 2016.04.29 21:11:43 -
[6143] - Quote
Quote:10 guys in a system, on voice comms, in the same fleet have very little to fear from a cloaked ship. Especially if you buddy up.
10 guys doing nothing but waiting for one character (of a multiboxer who's either playing on his main or watching cartoons) to make a move 24/7.
even if this is true (I doubt it) it would just be proof of how dumb this situation is |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4840
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Posted - 2016.04.29 21:19:12 -
[6144] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:Quote:10 guys in a system, on voice comms, in the same fleet have very little to fear from a cloaked ship. Especially if you buddy up. 10 guys doing nothing but waiting for one character (of a multiboxer who's either playing on his main or watching cartoons) to make a move 24/7. even if this is true (I doubt it) it would just be proof of how dumb this situation is
Who said anything about doing nothing. Buddy up and burn down havens and sanctums. Fit the ships for PvP. Anyone jumping in and engaging, send that 6,000 DPS their way.
Sheesh. Do you need me to tell you how to make a PB&J next?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
9
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Posted - 2016.04.29 21:58:09 -
[6145] - Quote
if you get dropped by 6 blops they'll finish salvaging your wreck by the time your first friend lands on grid (aka whelps his ship)
again, the issue here is not the drop, but the fact that you're forced to anticipate a fleet coming literally out of nowhere, without any warning while the other guy is watching cartoons or having fun on his other chars.
if I wanted this, I'd live in a WH |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4842
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Posted - 2016.04.29 22:08:00 -
[6146] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:if you get dropped by 6 blops they'll finish salvaging your wreck by the time your first friend lands on grid (aka whelps his ship)
again, the issue here is not the drop, but the fact that you're forced to anticipate a fleet coming literally out of nowhere, without any warning while the other guy is watching cartoons or having fun on his other chars.
if I wanted this, I'd live in a WH
Like I said work as a group. They are working as a group. You want to defeat them...use their tactics.
Further, with local and realizing a guy is there and likely cloaked, this should not be "coming out of nowhere".
And you are truly terrible if you are ratting alone, yell for help and people warp in to help one at time (unless you are hictor or dictor pilot). You deserve everything you get at that point.
And I doubt they'd be salvaging anything. When you just dropped several billion ISK On the field ganked and ishtar, might be a good idea to GTFO before the calvary arrives.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
269
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Posted - 2016.04.29 22:11:14 -
[6147] - Quote
"the fact that you're forced to anticipate a fleet coming literally out of nowhere"
That's the general idea! Exciting, isn't it? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4842
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Posted - 2016.04.29 22:20:26 -
[6148] - Quote
Look, if you are in a system with your buddies and no hostiles are around....do whatever you want (rat, mine, PI, etc.). Still I'd strongly recommend being on voice comes and any standing fleet.
If you log in and there is a guy you strongly suspect is AFK in system, then absolutely get on voice comms, get in a fleet. Fit your ishtars to a PvP fit. Undock as a group, start burning down sanctums and havens. Since you are in PvP fits you'll be a much tougher target and with a group even more so.
You make ISK, you keep your ADMs up and you are even socializing. My goodness, the horror of it all. If you get enough people, you might even be able to have a group off mining and one ratting. With the ratting fleet going and helping to defend the mining fleet. Oh, and get an alt with boosts....maybe an alt with a dictor as well.
Seriously, all this whining about not being able to engage in casual almost careless play because of guys who are careful and putting for not inconsiderable effort is amazing.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
10
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Posted - 2016.04.29 22:21:15 -
[6149] - Quote
Quote:That's the general idea! Exciting, isn't it?
oh yeah! let's add a mechanic so the camper has to be on his toes nonstop as well! exciting! |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4842
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Posted - 2016.04.29 22:24:44 -
[6150] - Quote
Oh, and I'll give you some additional help here....
To make a PB&J, take two slices of bread and lay them on a plate or cutting board. Get out a knife. Open the jar of peanut butter and stick the knife in there and get the desired amount of peanut butter on the knife. Spread the peanut butter around on 1 slice of bread with the knife. Repeat this process with the jelly, but on the other slice. That last part is key as it is easier to spread jelly on piece of bread with nothing on it than the slice with the peanut butter. When you are done, stick the 2 slices of bread together. Don't forget to put the peanut butter and jelly away and wash the knife.
HTH, HAND.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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