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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
711
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Posted - 2016.10.31 21:12:51 -
[7471] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Ratpack Reported for Ad-hom.
Sonya If players wanted to play in wormhole space, they would do that and be there.
Its frankly a pretty unpopular game environment variation.
Way to not understand what I have said many, many times:
"Human error assures that content exists if ships are undocked. The whole problem with afk cloaky camping rotates around it keeping ships docked up and far more secure than they otherwise would be"
What percent of the time spent ratting and mining are your people in standing defense fleets, on comms, and ratting/mining in groups? If you're in null, that should be 100% |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5442
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Posted - 2016.10.31 21:18:16 -
[7472] - Quote
So for all the anti-AFK cloaking people, how do you know a ship is in local and cloaked?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.10.31 21:29:26 -
[7473] - Quote
Pech People pay their subscriptions, are able to log on, then when they log on, they see the afk cloaky camper in system.
The way to stop knowing if someone is cloaked in a system is to stop paying subscriiptions and logging on.
Lets go with that fix.
Sonya People in null sec do not use peak times to PvE. They use it to PvP in epic battles. A lifestyle combining pve and pvp is pretty niche. See wormholes for the fraction of eve's population that appeals to.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
278
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Posted - 2016.10.31 22:17:15 -
[7474] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Pech People pay their subscriptions, are able to log on, then when they log on, they see the afk cloaky camper in system.
The way to stop knowing if someone is cloaked in a system is to stop paying subscriiptions and logging on.
Lets go with that fix.
Sonya People in null sec do not use peak times to PvE. They use it to PvP in epic battles. A lifestyle combining pve and pvp is pretty niche. See wormholes for the fraction of eve's population that appeals to.
No, we are not going with that fix because it's going to increase the security in nullsec even more, making ratting 100% safe for most people there. If you want to nerf cloaks, you need to nerf local too.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.10.31 22:21:32 -
[7475] - Quote
Ratpack Wrong.
The least intrusive change imaginable is a 5 hour timer (using command burst mechanics).
For discussions on how to give players real time information. See a completely different thread.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5443
|
Posted - 2016.10.31 22:27:02 -
[7476] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Pech People pay their subscriptions, are able to log on, then when they log on, they see the afk cloaky camper in system.
The way to stop knowing if someone is cloaked in a system is to stop paying subscriiptions and logging on.
Lets go with that fix.
Sonya People in null sec do not use peak times to PvE. They use it to PvP in epic battles. A lifestyle combining pve and pvp is pretty niche. See wormholes for the fraction of eve's population that appeals to.
How do they see them? What part of the game lets them know somebody is in that system with them?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5443
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Posted - 2016.10.31 22:34:43 -
[7477] - Quote
Everybody get ready to witness the Jerghul Weasel Dance.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
281
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Posted - 2016.10.31 22:45:18 -
[7478] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Ratpack Wrong.
The least intrusive change imaginable is a 5 hour timer (using command burst mechanics).
For discussions on how to give players real time information. See a completely different thread.
That change would still increase the safety of nullsec ratters and as my previous link proved, even CCP thinks that nullsec ratters are too safe.
If you want to change cloaks, you NEED to change local as well. They are 2 sides of the same problem. There is no weaseling out of that. AFK-cloaking exists because of intel-channels that local fuel. You need to fix both, not just the other to keep it balanced.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.10.31 23:32:11 -
[7479] - Quote
Ratpack Wrong
More ships in space is unqualifably a good thing for any-sec. It gives more contact points for content.
Afk cloaky camping keeps ships docked. That is the only problem with it. Afk cloaky camping kills content.
The change I suggest makes ships more unsafe because they will undock more. Undocked ships are vulnerable to human error. Docked ships are not vulnerable to anything.
Afk cloaky campers would also become vulnerable to human error. They may at times miss the 5 hour reload.
Yay.
Predation levels do not have to be particularly high to justify small gang roams. I am operating with 3%. 3% of ratters in any system will screw up and not make it to safety.
The content gains come from more ships being undocked at any given time. Which in turn makes small gangs more viable - or even afk cloaky camping more viable (I have explained earlier how an afk cloaky camper can get a lot more kills with the change).
If ratters are safer per isk earned, after deducting ship losses, then bounties need to be tweaked.
Removing local degrades content. It gives less ships in space. Which is specifically the problem with afk cloaky camping. Removing local kills content.
There are better ways to give players real time information than local. But local has to stay until alternate real time information alternatives have been deployed.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5443
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Posted - 2016.10.31 23:51:40 -
[7480] - Quote
Local kills content too.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 00:04:25 -
[7481] - Quote
Ratpack Wrong.
Ships undock because of local. The perception of relative safety is an incredibly important content generator.
Not every undocked ship will get caught, but 3% is good enough if the volume of undocked ships is large enough.
Remove local and you dramatically decrease the number of undocked ships.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
281
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 00:19:59 -
[7482] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Ratpack Wrong.
Ships undock because of local. The perception of relative safety is an incredibly important content generator.
Not every undocked ship will get caught, but 3% is good enough if the volume of undocked ships is large enough.
Remove local and you dramatically decrease the number of undocked ships.
It's not relative safety, It's absolute safety. Local gives away your position BEFORE YOU LOAD GRID.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 00:43:11 -
[7483] - Quote
Ratpack Wrong.
Relative safety. Lots of things can still go wrong. And will go wrong. For 3% of the ratting ships. BUT THEY HAVE TO BE UNDOCKED TO SCREW UP.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
281
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 01:05:15 -
[7484] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Ratpack Wrong.
Relative safety. Lots of things can still go wrong. And will go wrong. For 3% of the ratting ships. BUT THEY HAVE TO BE UNDOCKED TO SCREW UP.
If you are awake and can follow these tips, you are safe:
1) Be aligned 2) Watch intel-channels 3) Warp when a neutral/red enters local
Nobody can catch you, you are 100% safe.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 01:18:25 -
[7485] - Quote
Wander Nothing went wrong if nothing went wrong you mean.
Relative safety. Lots of things can still go wrong. And will go wrong. For 3% of the ratting ships. BUT THEY HAVE TO BE UNDOCKED TO SCREW UP.
Human error is the premier content provider in nullsec.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
281
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 01:25:39 -
[7486] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Wander Nothing went wrong if nothing went wrong you mean.
Relative safety. Lots of things can still go wrong. And will go wrong. For 3% of the ratting ships. BUT THEY HAVE TO BE UNDOCKED TO SCREW UP.
Human error is the premier content provider in nullsec.
And local keeps people docked up as we've already established in this thread. So fix local and we can have more people in space for us to shoot and suddenly there will be less AFK-cloakers as well! It's win-win.
Wormholer for life.
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
711
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 01:31:02 -
[7487] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Pech People pay their subscriptions, are able to log on, then when they log on, they see the afk cloaky camper in system.
The way to stop knowing if someone is cloaked in a system is to stop paying subscriiptions and logging on.
Lets go with that fix.
Sonya People in null sec do not use peak times to PvE. They use it to PvP in epic battles. A lifestyle combining pve and pvp is pretty niche. See wormholes for the fraction of eve's population that appeals to.
What percent of the time spent ratting and mining are your people in standing defense fleets, on comms, and ratting/mining in groups? If you're in null, that should be 100%
I'm assuming if you're serious about what you say, you have a rule where you cap out and/or shoot on sight any corp/alliance member who is in null and not in fleet and on comms, yes? Look forward to you ignoring me again.
The only place left in the game for actuall PvP is LS and WHs. Null is carebear heaven as it stands. Get rid of local and that would change for the better. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5443
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 03:48:52 -
[7488] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Ratpack Wrong.
Ships undock because of local. The perception of relative safety is an incredibly important content generator.
Not every undocked ship will get caught, but 3% is good enough if the volume of undocked ships is large enough.
Remove local and you dramatically decrease the number of undocked ships.
Ships dock and stay docked because of local too.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 07:36:23 -
[7489] - Quote
Sonya Cool story, sis
Ratpack Hence my advocating a slight change to the cloaking mechanism. Its such a elegant fix.
Yay. Me.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
284
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 09:54:16 -
[7490] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Sonya Cool story, sis
Ratpack Hence my advocating a slight change to the cloaking mechanism. Its such a elegant fix.
Yay. Me.
Edit Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:
100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction) 10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down) 1000nds more ships in space 100ds more ratters (and others) killed. Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)
Wrong. As we've already shown in this thread, you have to fix local first before you can touch the cloak.
There is no "elegant fix" for this issue. To get this done right, you have to change the way local works in nullsec by removing the intelligence from the chat-channel and give the players the means to collect that intel for a cost. Only then can we talk about changing the cloak. It was the local use as a intel-channel that lead to the invention of AFK-cloaking.
What you are suggesting is putting a bandaid on a gun-shot to aorta and calling it perfectly fine.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 10:04:57 -
[7491] - Quote
Ratpack Wrong.
The prerequisite for changing local is giving players other real time information tools.
Anything else renders nullsec as dead (or deader) than w-space.
Which is just a pisspoor idea. That you can freely talk about in the relevant dead threads in this forum.
The final compromise and end word on this topic is here (though I do not discount CCP opting for a much more intrusive nerf to afk cloaky camping). This is the best deal you can get:
"Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:
100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction) 10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down) 1000nds more ships in space 100ds more ratters (and others) killed. Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)"
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
284
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 10:13:19 -
[7492] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Ratpack Wrong.
The prerequisite for changing local is giving players other real time information tools.
Anything else renders nullsec as dead (or deader) than w-space.
Which is just a pisspoor idea. That you can freely talk about in the relevant dead threads in this forum.
The final compromise and end word on this topic is here (though I do not discount CCP opting for a much more intrusive nerf to afk cloaky camping). This is the best deal you can get:
"Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:
100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction) 10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down) 1000nds more ships in space 100ds more ratters (and others) killed. Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)"
As much as I'd like to support your fantasy so that you don't have your world shatter around you, it's just a bad idea overall and will lead to even more safety in nullsec, which is something that most players AND CCP don't want, so we can chuck that idea to the same trashbin as all the other cloak-fuel suggestions.
Thank you for trying, but it's bad.
EDIT:
If you want real-time information, have someone watching the gate.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 11:42:17 -
[7493] - Quote
Ratpack Wrong.
Nothing in Eve is safer than staying docked up (afk cloaky camping is equally safe come to think of it). Any measure in 0-sec that causes players to undock more often is more dangerous than the current status quo.
This is the best deal afk cloaky camper lovers can get:
"Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:
100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction) 10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down) 1000nds more ships in space 100ds more ratters (and others) killed. Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)"
Sorry, bro. You lose.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3446
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 11:56:08 -
[7494] - Quote
Jerguhl wrote:This is the best deal afk cloaky camper lovers can get:
You act as if you have support for that idea.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 12:07:53 -
[7495] - Quote
Omna Au contraire, my dear friend.
My analytical approach assumes CCP will in fact make much more intrusive nerf to the cloaking modules.
As should have been clear in "This is the best deal afk cloaky camper lovers can get". The actual deal will very likely be far worse.
"This is the best deal afk cloaky camper lovers can get:
"Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:
100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction) 10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down) 1000nds more ships in space 100ds more ratters (and others) killed. Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)"
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
284
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 12:17:57 -
[7496] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Omna Au contraire, my dear friend.
My analytical approach assumes CCP will in fact make much more intrusive nerf to the cloaking modules.
As should have been clear in "This is the best deal afk cloaky camper lovers can get". The actual deal will very likely be far worse.
"This is the best deal afk cloaky camper lovers can get:
"Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:
100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction) 10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down) 1000nds more ships in space 100ds more ratters (and others) killed. Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)"
You mean your delusions, because there's not a shred of evidence to prove anything you are saying.
If CCP thought that your suggestion was the right fix, they would have done it years ago as there is nothing new about it. It's just cloak-fuel. Your idea has been heard and deemed idiotic. Move on.
CCP wants to decrease the safety of ratters, not increase it. Your suggestion would only make them more safe, not less.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 12:49:17 -
[7497] - Quote
Ratpack Wrong.
Eve can be understood at many levels. Feel free to understand it at your own lethargic pace.
The change I am suggesting is based on the introduction of alpha clones. So the time for change is after the 15th of November.
"This is the best deal afk cloaky camper lovers can get:
"Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:
100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction) 10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down) 1000nds more ships in space 100ds more ratters (and others) killed. Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)"
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
712
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 13:54:35 -
[7498] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Sonya Cool story, sis
What percent of the time spent ratting and mining are your people in standing defense fleets, on comms, and ratting/mining in groups? If you're in null, that should be 100%
I'm assuming if you're serious about what you say, you have a rule where you cap out and/or shoot on sight any corp/alliance member who is in null and not in fleet and on comms, yes? Look forward to you ignoring me again. I enjoy you proving me right time and time again |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3446
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 14:10:11 -
[7499] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Omnathious Au contraire, my dear friend.
My analytical approach assumes CCP will in fact make much more intrusive nerf to the cloaking modules.
As should have been clear in "This is the best deal afk cloaky camper lovers can get". The actual deal will very likely be far worse.
Again, you still act as if you have support for this. Also repeating the same bad idea doesn't make it a good idea. It just makes it a bad idea being repeated.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
284
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 14:18:13 -
[7500] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Ratpack Wrong.
Eve can be understood at many levels. Feel free to understand it at your own lethargic pace.
The change I am suggesting is based on the introduction of alpha clones. So the time for change is after the 15th of November.
"This is the best deal afk cloaky camper lovers can get:
"Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:
100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction) 10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down) 1000nds more ships in space 100ds more ratters (and others) killed. Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)"
No matter how many times you keep repeating your fantasy, it does not make it true. The more you keep doing it, the more it shows your lack of understanding of Eve and it's players.
All you've got are "facts" that you pulled out of some very dark orifice of yours without any proof or evidence to support any of it. There more you post, the more I think you are losing your grasp of reality. Your idea of cloak-fuel is as old as this thread and if CCP thought it was the correct fix, it would have been done years ago as there is nothing new about it. CCP seems to agree with my side in that there needs to be less safety in nullsec and that is only achieved by removing intelligence from local. Nerfing cloaks only cater to the carebears being more safe, not less no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.
There's nothing wrong in admitting you were wrong. I'm going to eagerly wait for your apology on that as well as on the thinly veiled insults you keep throwing around.
It's okay, not everyone can be smart. Nothing wrong in admitting you are dumb.
Wormholer for life.
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