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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5453
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Posted - 2016.11.01 19:36:47 -
[7531] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Sonya I find worms unappealing. Without actually ever tasting one.
We can try again. Wormhole space does not appeal to most Eve players, so they have not tried it.
Yay semantics. Words mean something.
More ships undocked may not be your goal. But it is my goal.
Because each ship in space can be caught if hunted. All that is needed is for the pilot to screw up.
I am operating with a 3% screw up rate. The more ships in space, the more pilots will screw up.
Human error is the supreme content provider in null-sec.
Its ok that you do not understand it. And then of course it follows that you cannot understand my argument.
And local is the supreme content killer.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 19:37:40 -
[7532] - Quote
Sonya Cool story, sis.
Anywho, to get back on track:
"Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:
100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction) 10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down) 1000nds more ships in space 100ds more ratters (and others) killed. Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)"
Removing local without replacing it with other real time information mechanisms will leave null-sec as dead or deader than wormhole space. The perception of safety can only be fostered under that condition. Players will undock far less often if the perception of safety is missing.
Removing local kills content so effectively it would render afk cloaky camping redundant."
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
289
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Posted - 2016.11.01 19:45:40 -
[7533] - Quote
Let's try this:
Is cloaks or AFK-cloaking an issue in:
High sec space: No, due to amount of people and rules specific to highsec (CONCORD) make cloaking to not be an issue in highsec.
Low sec space: No, due to amount of people moving around and people only caring about who is close to you, cloaking is not an issue in lowsec
Wormhole-space: Due to lack of intel from local, people just assume they aren't alone and are prepaired for someone uncloaking next to them, cloaking and AFK-cloaking are seen as a tactic among others and aren't an issue.
NPC-null sec: Similar to lowsec, not a big issue due to amount of people from different corporations flying around. People are prepaired for PVP, bug no real problem with cloaking or AFK-cloaking
Sov-null: The only place in Eve where players use local as their primary source of intel and a binary way to see if it's safe to be in space. Only place where cloaks are seen as an issue, due to over-reliance on intel given by local.
Cloaks seem to be allright in everywhere else besides Sov-null. Weird huh? What's the biggest difference between those places? Sov-null is the only place in Eve that relies on intel from local as their only way to figure out is it safe to be in space or not.
Nerfing cloaks would only make it more safe in sov-null and make the bears even less likely to undock if there is anything not blue in space.
Local and the intel it gives are the reason why AFK-cloaking exists and why cloaking is seen as such a big issue in sov-null.
Take away the intel from local and AFK-cloaking will cease to be an issue. The players need a big dose of HTFU and less coddling. Nullsec is supposed to be dangerous, not safe. Nerfing cloaks only increase the safety and decrease the amount of kills that you get.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 19:51:47 -
[7534] - Quote
Ratpack Wrong, my dearest friend.
But feel free to have as many opinions as you like.
After all, I live in a free country :-)
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5453
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Posted - 2016.11.01 19:52:38 -
[7535] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Sonya Cool story, sis.
Anywho, to get back on track:
"Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:
100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction) 10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down) 1000nds more ships in space 100ds more ratters (and others) killed. Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)"
Removing local without replacing it with other real time information mechanisms will leave null-sec as dead or deader than wormhole space. The perception of safety can only be fostered under that condition. Players will undock far less often if the perception of safety is missing.
Removing local kills content so effectively it would render afk cloaky camping redundant."
More spam...
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5453
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Posted - 2016.11.01 19:53:27 -
[7536] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Ratpack Wrong, my dearest friend.
But feel free to have as many opinions as you like.
After all, I live in a free country :-)
And yet more spam....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
2635
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Posted - 2016.11.01 19:59:13 -
[7537] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Someone at CCP/CSM/ISD said it best (and I'm paraphrasing here because I can't for the life of me find the link): "Show me someone who has been genuinely harmed by AFK cloaking, and I'll show you someone who has no business playing EvE."
AFK cloaking doesn't hurt anyone. It never has, and it never will. All it does is shatter the illusion of safety presented by a local list that is friendly. Any impact that shattered illusion has on someone's activities is entirely their choice, not the person cloaking.
Until someone comes up with a bona fide, rational example of AFK cloaking actually harming another player, I say it should be left as-is.
This was true when I said it almost two years ago on the first page of this thread, and it's still true now, 366 pages in.
In this thread I've seen lots of complaints about people getting hot-dropped, spied on, and having their content denied all by AFK cloakers. Well, guess what: someone who is AFK cannot do anything to you. Not a thing. They just sit there, in space, invisible. Well, invisible except for the fact that, at least in k-space, everyone in the solar system knows that they are there and can act accordingly. That's kind of a big downside to a device that's supposed to render a ship totally invisible.
You got hot-dropped? Maybe you shouldn't have been ratting in something worth hotdropping on. Risk v. Reward and all that jazz.
You got spied on? Welcome to EvE, you should probably be more worried about the blue spies in your own ranks.
You got content denied? The person denying you the content was you, not the AFK cloaker. The choice was yours, not theirs, because you didn't feel safe enough.
Cloaking requires zero changes. No fuel, no timers, no limits, no new counters. It's probably about as close to a perfect mechanic as exists in EvE.
Local chat could possibly use a re-work, but that goes far beyond the scope of this thread, so I'll leave that for another time.
How long is this going to go on people?
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
A brief history of C&P Thunderdome
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
289
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Posted - 2016.11.01 20:03:08 -
[7538] - Quote
Probably until the end of Eve or until we get a CCP comment in this thread.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 20:17:57 -
[7539] - Quote
Bronson The only thing wrong with afk cloaky camping is that it kills content.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
714
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Posted - 2016.11.01 20:42:15 -
[7540] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Sonya Cool story, sis.
Anywho, to get back on track:
"Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:
100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction) 10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down) 1000nds more ships in space 100ds more ratters (and others) killed. Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)"
Removing local without replacing it with other real time information mechanisms will leave null-sec as dead or deader than wormhole space. The perception of safety can only be fostered under that condition. Players will undock far less often if the perception of safety is missing.
Removing local kills content so effectively it would render afk cloaky camping redundant."
Back to your old tricks of refusing to talk about something when you are proven wrong? Got it. I highly respect the "stick fingers in your ears and pretend you can't hear" defense you have going on.
A good chunk of people currently in null shouldn't be there in the first place. If you can't defend your space (read, have 10-20 people active in every system you own 23.5/7) then null isn't for you. Let's make changes to actually make null risky again, not to make it a place for 23.5/7 risk free ISK farming. |
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.01 20:50:22 -
[7541] - Quote
Sonya Nothing you said was relevant, interesting, or undiscussed.
The same goes for what you just posted. You have ideas of what you think nullsec should be. Fair enough.
I suppose. But there is 0 overlap with what I want to see.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
714
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Posted - 2016.11.01 20:55:33 -
[7542] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Sonya Nothing you said was relevant, interesting, or undiscussed.
The same goes for what you just posted. You have ideas of what you think nullsec should be. Fair enough.
I suppose. But there is 0 overlap with what I want to see.
I legitimately wonder if you've even lived in null at this point in the conversation.
And then I'm impressed by how long you keep blatantly trolling like this. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5453
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Posted - 2016.11.01 21:14:20 -
[7543] - Quote
I'm impressed that Jerghul doesn't see that his solution will likely lead to less interaction and thus be worse for the game.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
290
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Posted - 2016.11.01 22:04:50 -
[7544] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I'm impressed that Jerghul doesn't see that his solution will likely lead to less interaction and thus be worse for the game.
Oh he sees it, he just closes his eyes and skips it as it would go against his perfect theory.
Wormholer for life.
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
714
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Posted - 2016.11.01 22:23:50 -
[7545] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I'm impressed that Jerghul doesn't see that his solution will likely lead to less interaction and thus be worse for the game. Oh he sees it, he just closes his eyes and skips it as it would go against his perfect theory.
Or he gets most of his income from NS PvE and knows exactly what he's asking for |
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
404
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Posted - 2016.11.02 01:14:15 -
[7546] - Quote
Thread closed for cleaning. It will not be quick. It will not be pleasant.You will not enjoy it.
ISD Max Trix
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
I do not respond to Evemails.
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
2636
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Posted - 2016.11.03 12:11:49 -
[7547] - Quote
The Llama is strong with this one....
Now I know what to watch the next time I'm camping out cloaked in someone's system. Thanks!
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
A brief history of C&P Thunderdome
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.03 17:07:14 -
[7548] - Quote
On the point that bounties may need a tweak.
I reviewed last months economic data.
I am putting lower bounties as a premise for introducing command burst type charges for cloaking modules (ie 5 hour timer).
Instead of a possible consequence of doing so.
Edit Lower bounties the end effect. I don't care if it achieved by rats warping off into the sunset with the overseers personal effects if they are in an obviously losing position (which may be one way of doing things. Ratting with scrams to keep the treasures from escaping. Yay :).
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Limi Etherseed
Star Nation Elemental Tide
14
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Posted - 2016.11.03 19:08:43 -
[7549] - Quote
While I have made my own suggestions about dealing with cloaky campers, I am not entirely certain what command burst style charges for cloaking modules would actually fix. 23.5 hours or 5 hours, people that pay attention (fear) to cloaked campers will do so either way. Putting a charge on the module that requires manual reloading won't really incite loss-averse people to go out and remove them.
The thought process would probably be: "But what if he let the cloak lapse... as an ambush?" And then most would stay in their stations and fret about losing their ratting ship.
And while I get that you are looking for the least intrusive change to deal with a problem, Jerghul, it doesn't seem to be the best one, as it does not address what is determined to be the root cause of afk cloak camping. Which is the unmatched level of safety that the intel from local gives a person who is on their toes.
If you put system-wide "Who is in here, what are their standings" intel on a killable structure that had to cycle its scans and removed it from local, you'd no longer have a need for afk cloaky campers as a means of suppressing that intel. I think I'd prefer that to be the case, personally. A cheap general scanner structure that when deployed gave the people who owned it a list of ships currently registered as being in the system, and then a much more expensive to run/deploy structure that would allow ATK players to scan down cloakers for securing their space. That way you'd have to DO something to secure your space, and generate content in doing so. Then, if you were skimming through someone else's space, you could force fights on the structures or clean out an enemy's intelligence network in the short term to mask your movements.
It would be a much more intrusive change, certainly, but it would fulfill what I've been arguing for and it would at least move the free intel of local into something that had to physically be done in-game to gather. Which would allow for more opportunities for kills, content and fun.
Now, I don't think the cloak scanner should be something that negates the module entirely, such as broadcasting pulses that decloak the ship that has it active. I'd rather it simply scan them down and give the responding ship (so you'd have to work with someone else to catch the cloaker), semi-accurate warpto and approach coordinates data with enough time that a cloaker who is watching can move to another safe, another celestial, another anything. Making it a cat and mouse game where if you screw up, you get popped. Same as any other PVP.
The least intrusive change does not pan out as far as I can predict, so I say tear the bandaid off, get the hurting over with and the relearning started and be done with it.
Ah! Don't shoot me there, I'm a bleeder!
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
290
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Posted - 2016.11.03 19:47:34 -
[7550] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:On the point that bounties may need a tweak.
I reviewed last months economic data.
I am putting lower bounties as a premise for introducing command burst type charges for cloaking modules (ie 5 hour timer).
Instead of a possible consequence of doing so.
Edit Lower bounties the end effect. I don't care if it achieved by rats warping off into the sunset with the overseers personal effects if they are in an obviously losing position (which may be one way of doing things. Ratting with scrams to keep the treasures from escaping. Yay :).
While CCP did say something about bounties in Eve Vegas
(Source: https://m.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5a5740/notes_from_the_balancing_roundtable/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true
"Q: When are you looking at Isk making with Incurisons (too much)? A: Not too concerned with Incursions. Null sec ratting is the biggest isk faucet. Needs rebalance." )
Any balancing on bounties would be done due to economic reasons, not as a part of any cloaking-changes. Otherwise your idea is still bad.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.03 22:04:44 -
[7551] - Quote
Ratpack Yes, we know you think a 5 hour timer on cloaking modules is a bad idea. I am also incredibly supportive of your right to have as many opinions as you want.
More ships in space will give more ratting sites run. It is quite obvious from the economic overview that ratting bounties are a bit too high already. More ratting will make it even higher.
Lower bounties is now a premise for instead of a consequence of more ships in space.
I have no desire to increase the bounty faucet. I want more ships in space dividing the same faucet.
There are other ways to fix things. We will see how it plays out, but belt ratting looks to have been fixed using other means. The sum of those means are very intrusive from an afk cloaky camper perspective. You may rue the day if CCP moves forward in a similar way for ratting activity.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
290
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Posted - 2016.11.03 22:15:48 -
[7552] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:limi A 5 hour timer introduces human error into the equation.
An afk cloaky camper may be delayed at the pub and see his or her ship decloak after 5 hours. Meaning in turn that less afk cloaky camping will occur as players make a judgement call (will I be atk in less than 5 hours, or should I log off?).
The 23.5 hour timer does not have the human error option as logging off is mandatory.
In order of magnitude per day in null-sec: 100ds of less afk cloaky campers (double digit % reduction) 10s of afk cloaky campers killed (decloaked by timer while afk and probbed down) 1000nds of more ships in space 100ds of more ships killed Bounty payment increase (double digie % increase)
The premise for removing local is to find other ways to give individual players real time information. Removing local without compensatory real time information tools renders afk cloaky camping redundant And null sec as dead or deader than wormhole space.
Ratpack Yes, we know you think a 5 hour timer on cloaking modules is a bad idea. I am also incredibly supportive of your right to have as many opinions as you want.
More ships in space will give more ratting sites run. It is quite obvious from the economic overview that ratting bounties are a bit too high already. More ratting will make it even higher.
Lower bounties is now a premise for instead of a consequence of more ships in space.
I have no desire to increase the bounty faucet. I want more ships in space dividing the same faucet.
There are other ways to fix things. We will see how it plays out, but belt ratting looks to have been fixed using other means. The sum of those means are very intrusive from an afk cloaky camper perspective. You may rue the day if CCP moves forward in a similar way for ratting activity.
The same people who get caught by AFK-cloakers are the ones that get caught by fleets. They ignore the intel-channels and local, they don't stay aligned etc etc. The total amount of kills won't increase. It will be the same people dying. And the nullbears will keep yelling how it's unfair, until they can reliably unlcoak a cloaked ship at a drop of a hat.
The 5 hour timer will only increase the safety of nullsec as there will be no way to go around the intel that local provides. Fix the intel provided by local and you will fix AFK-cloaking at the same time. CCP agrees that local gives too much intel for free and they are looking to fix it.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.03 22:26:11 -
[7553] - Quote
Ratpack CCP suggests that local is not really an appropriate way to get real time information. I have no issue with that stance.
I do have issues with rendering afk cloaky camping by removing local and making null sec as dead or deader than wormhole space.
The premise for changing local is introducing other tools that give individual players real time information.
Most people ratting do the right things most of the time. They are interesting when they do not do the right things and can get caught (I use the term human error for that).
The chance of getting caught can be expressed as a % of the number of ships undocked. I am operating with 3%. I high-jacked the number from industrial standards. So debatable. It could be a different %.
Increase the number of ships and you increase the number of victims is the point.
Increase the number of victims and you increase the number of hunters.
The problem with afk cloaky camping is that it relies on habituation. Players slowly get used to the camper in system and gradually lower their guard and make a mistake (undock to rat).
It is a very inefficient way of generating kills and keeps ratters safe and docked instead of undocked and vulnerable to making mistakes and getting caught.
The 5 hour timer does not end afk cloaky camping. It tempers the practice somewhat. Keep at it and do it properely....
...And it will give you more kills than the current system does (by way of entrapment for example).
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3447
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Posted - 2016.11.03 22:43:08 -
[7554] - Quote
You seem to have a misunderstanding on how active WHs are.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5468
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Posted - 2016.11.03 23:39:30 -
[7555] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Ratpack CCP suggests that local is not really an appropriate way to get real time information. I have no issue with that stance.
I do have issues with rendering afk cloaky camping redundant by removing local and making null sec as dead or deader than wormhole space.
Nobody is suggesting the mere removal of local. People are pointing out the actual problem is local. Local is why AFK cloaking works and why people do it. Local is 100% accurate, gives advanced warning, and is invulnerable.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5468
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Posted - 2016.11.03 23:40:58 -
[7556] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:You seem to have a misunderstanding on how active WHs are.
He equates population with activity which of course is false.
If w-space guys are logging in say more frequently and for longer periods of time then they are actually more active.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.03 23:56:58 -
[7557] - Quote
Ratpack I am equating it to any metric you can shake a stick at. But CCP has the data. They know the standing of that hypothesis. We can just agree to disagree on it and move on.
Access to real time information is not a problem, it is a premise for activity in null-sec.
I do not care how individual players might access real time information in the future as long as they can access real time information.
The problem with afk cloaky camping is simply that it keeps ships docked and safe, instead of undocked and unsafe.
I see the need to temper afk cloaky camping somewhat for that reason and that reason alone.
Changing local in a way that keeps ships docked and safe, instead of undocked and unsafe is not a solution, even if doing so renders afk cloaky camping redundant.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
291
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Posted - 2016.11.04 01:32:35 -
[7558] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Ratpack I am equating it to any metric you can shake a stick at. But CCP has the data. They know the standing of that hypothesis. We can just agree to disagree on it and move on.
Access to real time information is not a problem, it is a premise for activity in null-sec.
I do not care how individual players might access real time information in the future as long as they can access real time information.
The problem with afk cloaky camping is simply that it keeps ships docked and safe, instead of undocked and unsafe.
I see the need to temper afk cloaky camping somewhat for that reason and that reason alone.
Changing local in a way that keeps ships docked and safe, instead of undocked and unsafe is not a solution, even if doing so renders afk cloaky camping redundant.
So you would be okay if that real-time information came from a player looking at the gate as a scout? Because that's player-gathered, real-time information.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.04 06:32:16 -
[7559] - Quote
Wander Of course I am ok with players perching off gates and looking at *stuff*. Heavens, why would I want that to stop?
I am fine with lots of things.
I am fine with getting rid of all that "free stuff players get without deserving it" in portions of null-sec that players use. Like gates and local real time information.
Closing down local and gates in some null-sec locations without warning would be lulzy. Making both work erratically would be lulzy. Making both player manipulatable would be lulzy.
But those null-sec systems would no longer be null-sec in anything other than name.
I am fine with introducing all kinds of worm-hole type mechanisms into portions of null-sec.
But I am not fine with removing local without replacing it with other real time information mechanisms (note the use of plural).
While doing that may render afk cloaky camping redundant, it would also result in less ships in space. Which is the only problem I have with afk cloaky camping in the first place.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5468
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Posted - 2016.11.04 08:10:52 -
[7560] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Wander
I am fine with getting rid of all that "free stuff players get without deserving it" in portions of null-sec that players use. Like gates and local real time information.
Why doesn't that include local? Provided there is an in game alternative--i.e. some sort of structure that can be attacked.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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