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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.09 19:59:07 -
[7651] - Quote
Off topic to request data that ultimately only CCP has. Proof may be in the pudding. But CCP has the pudding and is the arbitrator on the merits of different arguments.
Yes, peak time for the player group in question. Like I stated with "designed specifically around peak time windows that players define themselves".
"Best idea, make All Cloaking modules require fuel.....strontium (ice products) seems to be CCP's prefered method of use for a great many things these days."
That is my conclusion also.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5488
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Posted - 2016.11.09 20:02:32 -
[7652] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Reported above post. Straw man argument.
The lack of local is the overwhelming reason the overwhelming majority of EvE players find wormhole space incredibly unappealing.
Maybe, but there is the time commitment as well. Living in a wormhole always struck me as requiring a greater degree of commitment to the game. I just can't do that level of commitment.
Removing local is probably too much which is why most people are suggesting alternatives.
So...you kinda have to report your own post for a strawman since you are in such a reporting mood.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5488
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Posted - 2016.11.09 20:05:12 -
[7653] - Quote
Asveron Durr wrote:"AFK" is not the issue or the problem at hand.
Simply being able to cloak with no counter to it at all is the issue. Doesnt matter if it is Nullsec, Losec, WornholeSpace, or highsec....
The issue is the same, and it is worse in some places when the intended target/victim knows by name the possible intentions of the cloaker.
Take highsec for example, in the past I have used the cloaking mechanic to both be afk creating the threat of possible interdiction by friends or alts to a target under wardec, or even a threat to those know im waiting for any oppurtunity to gank them.
Code does the same in highsec, as do the "Mercenary" groups.
Now you have nullsec, Cloaking (AFK or not does not matter) the threat is slightly more exponential because all the cards are in the hands of the Cloaker. Does not matter if the Cloaker has a cyno or picks a target to torpedo or bomb from the herd.
Wormhole Space, it has no difference from nullsec or even losec....all 3 places have no Concord so the cloaker has little to no fear of losing his/her ship.
Highsec is the only real big difference because the Cloaker will never be the attacker wihout a wardec or suspect flag to use an will always have friends/alts instead as he/she is the warp point.
In these regards of useage or inteded threat making (metagame if you prefer), Local has no bearing what so ever, Cloaking is just too powerful because it does not have single counter to it.
Best idea, make All Cloaking modules require fuel.....strontium (ice products) seems to be CCP's prefered method of use for a great many things these days.
Sorry, but no ship has ever been destroyed by a ship that was cloaked. The fact that their presence in local is a problem for you is not indicative of a balance issue.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
745
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Posted - 2016.11.09 20:11:10 -
[7654] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Reported above post. Straw man argument.
The lack of local is the overwhelming reason the overwhelming majority of EvE players find wormhole space incredibly unappealing.
Reported above post, trolling.
See? I can do that too!
How would you know if you've (as you admitted) never been in a wormhole? |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
745
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Posted - 2016.11.09 20:12:51 -
[7655] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Off topic to request data that ultimately only CCP has. Proof may be in the pudding. But CCP has the pudding and is the arbitrator on the merits of different arguments.
Yes, peak time for the player group in question. Like I stated with "designed specifically around peak time windows that players define themselves".
"Best idea, make All Cloaking modules require fuel.....strontium (ice products) seems to be CCP's prefered method of use for a great many things these days."
That is my conclusion also.
Reported above post, off topic.
This thread is about AFK cloaking, not peak times, stay on subject please. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5488
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Posted - 2016.11.09 20:22:28 -
[7656] - Quote
So some of the differences between NS and WH.
No obvious gates--i.e. they do not show up on the overview. Cannot use jump drives. Different rats requiring different set ups and even groups. Limited infrastructure--i.e. you can't have an outpost, there are no stations, etc. Wormhole system effects.
These are just the ones I know as somebody who does not live in w-space.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5488
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Posted - 2016.11.09 20:24:34 -
[7657] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Off topic to request data that ultimately only CCP has. Proof may be in the pudding. But CCP has the pudding and is the arbitrator on the merits of different arguments.
Yes, peak time for the player group in question. Like I stated with "designed specifically around peak time windows that players define themselves".
"Best idea, make All Cloaking modules require fuel.....strontium (ice products) seems to be CCP's prefered method of use for a great many things these days."
That is my conclusion also.
Right, lets nerf cloaks for ATK cloakers.
Cloaks are fine. A cloaked ship does zero DPS. No ship has been destroyed by a cloaked ship. Very good defense, zero offense....seems reasonable to me.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5488
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Posted - 2016.11.09 20:26:44 -
[7658] - Quote
BTW the no jump drive part of wormholes make logistics much harder IMO. One JF can move lots of stuff in very little time with minimal risk. Especially now with citadels.
But nope...it is only the delayed local that is a factor.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3483
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Posted - 2016.11.09 20:40:21 -
[7659] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Off topic to request data that ultimately only CCP has. Proof may be in the pudding. But CCP has the pudding and is the arbitrator on the merits of different arguments.
"Best idea, make All Cloaking modules require fuel.....strontium (ice products) seems to be CCP's prefered method of use for a great many things these days."
That is my conclusion also. Data only CCP has? What happened to all that confidence that WHs had a lower population due to no Local?
Fuel for cloaking devices kills bombers and non AFK cloaking.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
745
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Posted - 2016.11.09 20:43:30 -
[7660] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:So some of the differences between NS and WH.
No obvious gates--i.e. they do not show up on the overview. Cannot use jump drives. Different rats requiring different set ups and even groups. Limited infrastructure--i.e. you can't have an outpost, there are no stations, etc. Wormhole system effects.
These are just the ones I know as somebody who does not live in w-space.
Why I live in WHs?
* Very hard for capital ships to be in fights, so you aren't ROFL stomped, you actually get decent fights. It's much harder to batphone.
* being able to actually own space. Sov isn't really ownership, it's accepting what a massive alliance tells you. a smaller group can easily control a single wormhole and call it homoe.
* small group PvP, this is the place for it. by design it's incredibly annoying to get multi hundred man fleets in. large F1 monkey fleets are among the most boring type of fleet in game, and those don't exist in WHs
* variety of exits, I can hunt in LS one day, in WHs the next, in null later, you aren't stuck with your neighbors
* no perminant structures. everything in game should be able to be destroyed. I'm really annoyed that citadels don't drop loot outside of WHs. If you build it yourself, someone else should be able to take everything in it if it blows up
notice how the lack of local isn't on that list? anyone paying attention when ratting/mining/etc. can get all the info local gives without it |
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.09 21:23:43 -
[7661] - Quote
Reported several of the above posts.
I am not going to get into a discussion on the relative populations in wormhole and null sec space. It is a side track that derails the actual topic at hand. CCP has the data and can evaluate the arguments presented here based on its data.
As an anectdotal point - I find running wormholes between null and high sec far more convenient than using jump freighter services. And have yet to run into anyone...let alone any trouble in my DST and BR. I don't buy the logistics strain argument at all.
Asset sharing/theft inherent to POS life may have been a disincentive most of EvE found unappealing in addition to lack of local, but is not longer valid after the introduction of citadelles.
Lack of local remains the overwhelming basis for wh space' lack of appeal. Real time information for individual players is vitally important to increasing undock frequencies. Removing local may render afk cloaky camping redundant, but would not contribute to my explicit goal of increasing the number of ships undocked in null-sec space.
I find that argument very convincing. Others may disagree. I would urge them to agree to disagree and let CCP evaluate the arguments on their merits.
A cloaking module fuel requirement similar to command bursts targets the afk element of afk cloaky camping. It does not nerf other uses of cloaks in any meaningful way.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5491
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Posted - 2016.11.09 21:32:55 -
[7662] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Reported several of the above posts.
I am not going to get into a discussion on the relative populations in wormhole and null sec space. It is a side track that derails the actual topic at hand. CCP has the data and can evaluate the arguments presented here based on its data.
You are the one who keeps bringing it up though.
Quote:As an anectdotal point - I find running wormholes between null and high sec far more convenient than using jump freighter services. And have yet to run into anyone...let alone any trouble in my DST and BR. I don't buy the logistics strain argument at all.
And yet you keep complaining about everyone going off topic, and incorrectly invoking the straw man fallacy....sheesh.
Quote:Asset sharing/theft inherent to POS life may have been a disincentive most of EvE found unappealing in addition to lack of local, but is not longer valid after the introduction of citadelles.
Back tracking noted.
Quote:Lack of local remains the overwhelming basis for wh space' lack of appeal. Real time information for individual players is vitally important to increasing undock frequencies. Removing local may render afk cloaky camping redundant, but would not contribute to my explicit goal of increasing the number of ships undocked in null-sec space.
Now you are sidetracking the thread talking about why more players prefer NS to w-space--i.e. you are dragging the discussion back into a discussion of relative population. Can you decided if you want to have this discussion or not?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3484
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Posted - 2016.11.09 21:34:06 -
[7663] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Reported several of the above posts.
Whenever challenged about your point of view or data you cry off topic posting or ad hominem and report the post.
Jerghul wrote: I am not going to get into a discussion on the relative populations in wormhole and null sec space. It is a side track that derails the actual topic at hand. CCP has the data and can evaluate the arguments presented here based on its data.
Yet you were the one who initially brought this aspect into the discussion.
Jerghul wrote: As an anectdotal point - I find running wormholes between null and high sec far more convenient than using jump freighter services. And have yet to run into anyone...let alone any trouble in my DST and BR. I don't buy the logistics strain argument at all.
Living in and moving through are two completely different things.
Jerghul wrote: Asset sharing/theft inherent to POS life may have been a disincentive most of EvE found unappealing in addition to lack of local, but is not longer valid after the introduction of citadelles.
Lack of local remains the overwhelming basis for wh space' lack of appeal. Real time information for individual players is vitally important to increasing undock frequencies. Removing local may render afk cloaky camping redundant, but would not contribute to my explicit goal of increasing the number of ships undocked in null-sec space.
In your Opinion.
Jerghul wrote: A cloaking module fuel requirement similar to command bursts targets the afk element of afk cloaky camping. It does not nerf other uses of cloaks in any meaningful way.
It does when you have to consider that non AFK cloaking requires different kinds of logistical planning than a standard command burst.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.09 21:39:15 -
[7664] - Quote
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the contents of the last two posts and let CCP and the moderator team review the arguments on their merits.
I remain convinced that a command burst type charge for cloaking modules is by far the least intrusive way to temper afk cloaky camping somewhat.
The reason tempering is desirable is to increase the number of undocked ships in null-sec.
Because content.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3484
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Posted - 2016.11.09 21:48:10 -
[7665] - Quote
You seem to willfully ignore the repercussions of what will happen if AFK cloaking is nerfed. Your claim that more ships will be destroyed is a half truth, even then you have provided no evidence to support that other than your opinion.
Any changes to cloaking devices will need an appropriate change the local chat channel.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
299
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Posted - 2016.11.09 22:00:08 -
[7666] - Quote
In the 6+ years that I've lived in wormhole-space, by far the biggest reason why people say they don't want to live there is the effort it takes and the constant scanning. Local rarely comes up.
Wormholer for life.
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
750
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Posted - 2016.11.09 23:08:16 -
[7667] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the contents of the last two posts and let CCP and the moderator team review the arguments on their merits.
I agree 100%. Given you've made your point clear and want CCP to decide, it's logical that you don't need to reply to this thread any more, assuming you're serious about wanting CCP and not players to review what you said.
I appreciate your contributions. It's unfortunate that you can't reply any more, given you are leaving it up to CCP instead of us at this point.
It's been good chatting. Message me in game if you want to keep talking on this subject. I'll stick to this thread and send you a message in game if anything new comes up. |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
301
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Posted - 2016.11.10 13:45:28 -
[7668] - Quote
Wormhole-space has real-time information as well. It's called scouting. We work for the information that nullsec gets for free.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.10 14:13:22 -
[7669] - Quote
Constant scanning is the result not having real time information from local.
Scouting relies on 3rd party applications and any real time information is not universally available to individual players.
Local is not a good way to provide individual players with real time information. The Beta map is on the right track and could ideally evolve to supplement or replace other ways of making real time information universally available to individual players.
I am sure CCP will figure something out and will figure something out in a way that does not render afk cloaky camping redundant (to drift back on topic).
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
301
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Posted - 2016.11.10 16:00:09 -
[7670] - Quote
You are the one that said there is no real-time intel in W-space. I just wanted to point out that it is there, but we work to get it. If you are in a wormhole-corp and you are online, you are on comms, in fleet and you will be up to date on what happens in the chain.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.10 17:19:57 -
[7671] - Quote
You cannot just drop the qualifiers and pretend my position is something it is not. Reported.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
301
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Posted - 2016.11.10 17:27:53 -
[7672] - Quote
Stop posting bullshit that you don't understand and I'll stop calling you out on it
Wormholer for life.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5498
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Posted - 2016.11.10 17:29:15 -
[7673] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Constant scanning is the result not having real time information from local.
Scouting relies on 3rd party applications and any real time information is not universally available to individual players.[quote]
You can use the client just fine to do that. Third party apps might make it easier, but they are not required. In fact, that is how intel channels shared by alliances work. It is a channel in game where hostiles are reported.
[quote]Local is not a good way to provide individual players with real time information. The Beta map is on the right track and could ideally evolve to supplement or replace other ways of making real time information universally available to individual players.
Which is why it should be replaced. Finally.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
7258
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Posted - 2016.11.10 17:36:34 -
[7674] - Quote
Please refrain from abusing the report button as that generates a lot of extra work for CCL. Repeated abuse of it will result in disciplinary action being taken. Thank you.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
752
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Posted - 2016.11.10 17:42:11 -
[7675] - Quote
Wait, so he was actually reporting people every time he said that? I assumed all along he was just saying it to try and get on our nerves |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.10 19:27:52 -
[7676] - Quote
Of course I was. But fair enough.
I can play by any common denominator.
Scouts do not work without using 3rd party applications. Do try to keep up.
Indeed. The Beta map shows fine promise in replacing not only local as a source of real time information, but also alliance intel channels. I would not hold your breath however. Many other things are obviously a higher priority.
Like tempering afk cloaky camping for example.
Also, stop thinking you are calling me out on anything besides your own limited understanding of game mechanics. I respect that you understand the game at your own pace, but try not to think everyone belongs in your special category.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3484
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Posted - 2016.11.10 19:35:35 -
[7677] - Quote
Scouting only requires the eve client and a knowledgeable player. No third party tools are required.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.10 19:43:54 -
[7678] - Quote
Disingenious much?
3rd party coms like TS are required for scouting. But feel free to volunteer to scout on the next fleet you are on and say you are going to type out everything in fleet chat because you are a knowlegable player and scouting only requires the eve client.
Tell us how that goes.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
302
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Posted - 2016.11.10 19:54:32 -
[7679] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Of course I was. But fair enough.
I can play by any common denominator.
Scouts do not work without using 3rd party applications. Do try to keep up.
Indeed. The Beta map shows fine promise in replacing not only local as a source of real time information, but also alliance intel channels. I would not hold your breath however. Many other things are obviously a higher priority.
Like tempering afk cloaky camping for example.
Also, stop thinking you are calling me out on anything besides your own limited understanding of game mechanics. I respect that you understand the game at your own pace, but try not to think everyone belongs in your special category.
If you cannot scout without a 3rd party program, you are doing the wrong job. All you need is your eyes, your ship, comms and a fleet. Wormhole-space works because of the work that players do together. Nullsec could learn a thing or 2 how things are done in w-space. Less soloing and more working together to make it safer for all.
EDIT: if you really need, you can do it with just text, but it's slower.
Wormholer for life.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
13
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Posted - 2016.11.10 20:01:25 -
[7680] - Quote
Wow, just wow.
COMS ARE 3rd PARTY APPLICATIONS
I dare you to join fleets, Offer to scout, and say you that you will only use the ingame client for your communications with the FC.
Tell us how that goes.
*reminds self to never assume malice, when stupidity is sufficient explanation for the crazy crap people type out in this thread*
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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