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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5539
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Posted - 2016.11.27 23:16:55 -
[8011] - Quote
Xcom wrote: *major facepalm* I just have no words. Read between the lines and look up sarcasm.
Please read, take a short break. Let that information sink in so you understand the concept of what the poster is trying to convey. Pause yet again just to make sure before hitting that post button.
Cyno is not the problem in a cloaking thread. Cyno is a different topic. Cloaking is the problem in its entirety. Its not to complicated to understand that.
Let me spell it out. C L O A K I N G
Fix cloaking and no more cloaking complaints. Cloaking needs a nerf.
Just going to make damn sure its right on the point and not an inch to the left.
CLOAKING IS THE PROBLEM.
No cloaking fix, big cloaking complaint thread. Cloaking fix, no more complaints.
Its that thing you do in space where your actually cloaked, you know when your ship disappears and stays invisible. Yes, that thing you do, the cloaking thing. That needs to be nerfed because it lacks any productive counter. It makes people sad. That's why people are complaining. So many people wouldn't complain if cloaking wasn't broken. If things were balanced people would be happy. People are not happy and that is why they are here, complaining.
No need blaming anything or anyone else or even out right flaming me personally. When I step away someone else will show up out of the blue and complain, someone I don't even have any contact with. Another person that have basically stepped over the big fat problem that's right here clear as glass. You might know what I'm talking about by now. Unless you skipped over anything I just typed and hit that post button.
People will keep showing up complaining and it wont stop until this problem is resolved. Smart people find problems and resolve them ahead of time before they even show up. It takes a different kind of snowflake to hear so many complaints and still ignore the problem, even worse outright attack the people pointing out the flaw.
Maybe if you could articulate a cogent reason as to why you think cloaking is broken....?
Your claim of a counter is just not really very good in that:
1. Cloaking ships die all the time. 2. Even AFK cloaking can be countered by players who care to do so.
That people complain is not sufficient. People complain many things in game repeatedly, that does not make them broken. People often complained about invention and the number of successes they observed.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5539
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Posted - 2016.11.27 23:44:38 -
[8012] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
My point of view which will get anguished reactions from Teckos and others is that this will enable the little dears to actually do something about local by off lining the OA by well placed shots or two. My view is that the OA must be vulnerable when in operation. Once that is in place then they can no longer fall back on we have no other way to catch people because the first step would be to blow up or off line the OA, thus giving them the advantage.
I have been in favor of something like the OA for quite some time. I have also been in favor of having it be vulnerable even outside of the normal defense window. I have also been in favor of having some sort of hacking/subversion.
I have also admitted that while I think local and AFK cloaking are balanced it is not very enjoyable game play and moving away from local as a source of intel and then and only then putting some sort of limitations on cloaks that things could become more interesting.
I have been in favor of this position since this thread (more than 3 years).
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
49
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Posted - 2016.11.27 23:46:48 -
[8013] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Maybe if you could articulate a cogent reason as to why you think cloaking is broken....?
Your claim of a counter is just not really very good in that:
1. Cloaking ships die all the time. 2. Even AFK cloaking can be countered by players who care to do so.
That people complain is not sufficient. People complain many things in game repeatedly, that does not make them broken. People often complained about invention and the number of successes they observed.
I'm glad you asked. Now that we are on point its much easier to articulate the issue.
The main problem of cloaked ships isn't the whole issue of the module and its use after the cloak have dropped. The problem is during the use of the cloak. There is no limitation to it. You can use the module for an indefinite amount of time in a limbo between logged off and on grid. Its almost like going into observatory view and have the power to stay there for any amount of time. You are close to invincible other then pilot errors which are to easy to avoid. That state of cloak shouldn't have some form of limitation to it. Its crazy thinking that cloaked ships during cloak shouldn't have any limit to there ability's. They have benefits such as observation without any drawback, that is the main issue. Observation without drawback and the chance to engage in combat or avoid it at no cost.
Its clear that any state should have a form of drawback other then, "you can't do much in cloaked state". The power to observe and engage or avoid is a huge advantage when combined with the aspects of unlimited time that you can stay in cloak. There needs to be a limit to cloaking, preferably something that does give the surrounding players around the cloaked ships the power to influence said pilot. Removing the power to influence cloaked ships creates an unbalanced advantage that fuels this thread. It gives anyone on the opposite side of that cloak a feeling of helplessness that in the end creates a bad gaming experience. Its game design 101. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5539
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Posted - 2016.11.28 00:00:03 -
[8014] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:....when a AFK cloaky camper goes any where near me....
Never ever happened.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
816
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Posted - 2016.11.28 00:03:07 -
[8015] - Quote
Xcom wrote:@ Sonya Corvinus you can kill people in citadels. Just takes a bit of effort.
Are you honestly saying specific people can be killed in citadels? and did you notice I said stations, not citadels?
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:If only there was. I am complaining about safety, not the lack thereof. Since, you know, the party line is that only PvE'ers dislike cloaks. From a PvP'ers point of view, cloaks pretty much guarantee no fun will be had.
Local pretty much guarantees no fun for PvPers given PvEers in sov null can escape literally 100% of the time. Yet you still want to make PvEing even safer. What's your solution to this?
Let's get rid of local in null and all problems go away. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5539
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Posted - 2016.11.28 00:07:32 -
[8016] - Quote
Xcom wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Maybe if you could articulate a cogent reason as to why you think cloaking is broken....?
Your claim of a counter is just not really very good in that:
1. Cloaking ships die all the time. 2. Even AFK cloaking can be countered by players who care to do so.
That people complain is not sufficient. People complain many things in game repeatedly, that does not make them broken. People often complained about invention and the number of successes they observed.
I'm glad you asked. Now that we are on point its much easier to articulate the issue. The main problem of cloaked ships isn't the whole issue of the module and its use after the cloak have dropped. The problem is during the use of the cloak. There is no limitation to it. You can use the module for an indefinite amount of time in a limbo between logged off and on grid. Its almost like going into observatory view and have the power to stay there for any amount of time. You are close to invincible other then pilot errors which are to easy to avoid. That state of cloak shouldn't have some form of limitation to it. Its crazy thinking that cloaked ships during cloak shouldn't have any limit to there ability's. They have benefits such as observation without any drawback, that is the main issue. Observation without drawback and the chance to engage in combat or avoid it at no cost. Its clear that any state should have a form of drawback other then, "you can't do much in cloaked state". The power to observe and engage or avoid is a huge advantage when combined with the aspects of unlimited time that you can stay in cloak. There needs to be a limit to cloaking, preferably something that does give the surrounding players around the cloaked ships the power to influence said pilot. Removing the power to influence cloaked ships creates an unbalanced advantage that fuels this thread. It gives anyone on the opposite side of that cloak a feeling of helplessness that in the end creates a bad gaming experience. Its game design 101.
As you note cloaks are self limiting. The only thing they are good for is, as you note, covert operations such as gathering intel. However, that is NOT without risks. Every time going through a gate is a risk. Every time one initiates warp there is a risk. Want to stop that cloaky guy from snooping-n-pooping set up a gate campe, use bubbles, use cans, use fast locking ships.
As for influencing another player...dude that is a two way street. I have ratted with an AFK cloaker in system. I did this because I gathered intel on him. I knew he was Euro TZ so it was relatively safe to rat in my TZ. In other words, that AFK cloaker will have as much influence on you as you let him.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5539
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Posted - 2016.11.28 00:09:26 -
[8017] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Wander Prian wrote: Wait, how do you make ISK when you are cloaked? Last I checked, you aren't able to activate any modules when cloaked
Cloaky Proteus (or Stratios) combo to run sites and slip past any gatecamp. When combat scanned, cloak till they leave- then resume. Cloaky Exploration Cheetah (or Astero). Cloaky blockade runner to haul your PI. I get what you're saying but you may need to approach it with more subtlety: cloaks are effectively helping the ISK making process. There's also the indirect approach where cloaky interceptors are posted as eyes to ward a system against marauding gangs, keeping the miners safe.
You cannot make ISK while cloaked. It is that simple. Note that Brokk is seriously mistaken. You make no ISK in his scenarios while cloaked, you only make ISK while uncloaked.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5539
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Posted - 2016.11.28 00:11:45 -
[8018] - Quote
Xcom wrote:
Wait, how do you make ISK when you are cloaked? Last I checked, you aren't able to activate any modules when cloaked
You know comments like that makes you look like an idiot more then anything.[/quote]
No, please explain how a cloaked ship makes ISK.
Can you shoot rats while cloaked? No. Can you extract your PI output from your planet while cloaked? No.
Exactly how does one make ISK while cloaked?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5539
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 00:27:44 -
[8019] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
That's not entirely true. PvE'ers have traditionally argued from an empire builder perspective; using words such as 'sovereign rights' to question why they aren't allowed to purge unwanted visitors from their space.
First off, lets be clear most of these whiners...they don't actually hold space, they more often than not, rent it.
Second, using a change to mechanics or literally a button to purge unwanted visitors is complete and errant Bravo Sierra of the most rank nature.
In short these guys want all the advantage. Even suggesting a change like the OA gets their old ladies panties in a knot. Especially if it means removing local. I have been reading and participating in these threads for at least 4 years, and the general consensus is, "We secured the space we should be able to use it....without facing any risk." They want cloaking fuel to make AFK cloaking simply go away. They want a decloaking pulse to make cloaking go away. They want T2 probes to make AFK cloaking go away. They want all of these things so they can make AFK cloaking go away and not have to actually...you know...defend "their" (bahahahahaha) sovereign space.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5539
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 00:28:43 -
[8020] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Xcom wrote:@ Sonya Corvinus you can kill people in citadels. Just takes a bit of effort. Are you honestly saying specific people can be killed in citadels? and did you notice I said stations, not citadels? Brokk Witgenstein wrote:If only there was. I am complaining about safety, not the lack thereof. Since, you know, the party line is that only PvE'ers dislike cloaks. From a PvP'ers point of view, cloaks pretty much guarantee no fun will be had. Local pretty much guarantees no fun for PvPers given PvEers in sov null can escape literally 100% of the time. Yet you still want to make PvEing even safer. What's your solution to this? Let's get rid of local in null and all problems go away.
Right. AFK cloaking is a symptom of local...not the other way around.
But full points for a nice Orwellian post.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5539
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 00:30:45 -
[8021] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Xcom wrote:Wander Prian wrote:My "complaining" is just the truth. Using local as your main source of intel made you vulnerable for AFK-cloaking. It was invented to counter your use of local as your primary way of gathering intel. I know your slow but you don't seam to get it. Not everyone here complaining about cloaks are from nullsec or even care about AFK-cloaking/hot-droping aspect of cloaks in nullsec. Cloaking in general needs nerfed because they are ruining the gameplay for more then the 200 or so players that are directly impacted by the niche problem you seem to source your entire argument around. Show me one who doesn't live in null and is complaining about cloaks?
Now, now...I think it should be phrased:
Show me someone who is complaining about cloaks and does not live in (sov) NS?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
49
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Posted - 2016.11.28 01:41:00 -
[8022] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Xcom wrote:@ Sonya Corvinus you can kill people in citadels. Just takes a bit of effort. Are you honestly saying specific people can be killed in citadels? and did you notice I said stations, not citadels? If you find that imbalanced then start a thread and reason why people in station can't be killed. Don't come to a cloaky thread and complain about it. I could be sitting here and reason that cloaked ships are connected to any number of random reasons just to drag the conversation to the gutter.
This isn't connect the dots. Cloaking is connected to the game yes but it is with clear evidence close to invulnerability. At least with citadels you as a player can force people to undock. Stations may or may not be changed to move in the same directions as citadels, but that's for time to tell and nothing to do with cloaked ships. |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
321
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Posted - 2016.11.28 01:54:48 -
[8023] - Quote
Xcom wrote:Sonya Corvinus wrote:Xcom wrote:@ Sonya Corvinus you can kill people in citadels. Just takes a bit of effort. Are you honestly saying specific people can be killed in citadels? and did you notice I said stations, not citadels? If you find that imbalanced then start a thread and reason why people in station can't be killed. Don't come to a cloaky thread and complain about it. I could be sitting here and reason that cloaked ships are connected to any number of random reasons just to drag the conversation to the gutter. This isn't connect the dots. Cloaking is connected to the game yes but it is with clear evidence close to invulnerability. At least with citadels you as a player can force people to undock. Stations may or may not be changed to move in the same directions as citadels, but that's for time to tell and nothing to do with cloaked ships.
Also while you are cloaked, you cannot activate modules,you cannot target anything, your ship is pre-nerfed for the ability to use the covert ops -cloak and it takes one slot from the ship. The only special ability that the cloak gives you is to choose the moment of engagement.
Wormholer for life.
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Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
49
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Posted - 2016.11.28 02:02:35 -
[8024] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:No, please explain how a cloaked ship makes ISK.
Can you shoot rats while cloaked? No. Can you extract your PI output from your planet while cloaked? No.
Exactly how does one make ISK while cloaked?
You really want to go there?
This is a game, cloaks needs to be balanced to give a good gaming experience. It doesn't matter that your making isk or not, its about the feature called cloaks that causes bad gaming experience in EvE online.
At this point that comment coming from you really is a troll comment. This is Features and Ideas parts of the forum, don't confuse it with EvE politics. |
Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
49
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Posted - 2016.11.28 02:27:04 -
[8025] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Xcom wrote:Sonya Corvinus wrote:Xcom wrote:@ Sonya Corvinus you can kill people in citadels. Just takes a bit of effort. Are you honestly saying specific people can be killed in citadels? and did you notice I said stations, not citadels? If you find that imbalanced then start a thread and reason why people in station can't be killed. Don't come to a cloaky thread and complain about it. I could be sitting here and reason that cloaked ships are connected to any number of random reasons just to drag the conversation to the gutter. This isn't connect the dots. Cloaking is connected to the game yes but it is with clear evidence close to invulnerability. At least with citadels you as a player can force people to undock. Stations may or may not be changed to move in the same directions as citadels, but that's for time to tell and nothing to do with cloaked ships. Also while you are cloaked, you cannot activate modules,you cannot target anything, your ship is pre-nerfed for the ability to use the covert ops -cloak and it takes one slot from the ship. The only special ability that the cloak gives you is to choose the moment of engagement. Yes but the intel gathering, prolonged stalemate of locking a player in system without being able to affect the outcome other then waiting the stailmait out and the ability to activate some modules that do not need ship lock tips it in a lopsided favour. If your ship would turn into a flying brick without the intel gathering cloaks would be perfectly balanced, but that's not the case.
These 3 points amongst other are the reason why cloaking is not balanced. 1. Intel gathering without any drawback. 2. Ability to engage with no drawbacks, because of point 1 tipping the hand heavily in the cloaked ships favour. 3. Reduced quality of gameplay when cloaks force the engagement to a stalemate where only one side of the party having the ability to break it.
Clearly as a gameplay perspective its evidenced to show imbalance when you look at the points above. Obviously if you start looking at it from an ingame perspective where cloaks have a role to play in the grand scheme of things then you can justify it form any number of standpoints. But isolated the module itself and the ability to cloak in EvE is not balanced, evidently from all the complaints. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony Mordus Angels
871
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 02:28:58 -
[8026] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote: Local pretty much guarantees no fun for PvPers given PvEers in sov null can escape literally 100% of the time. Yet you still want to make PvEing even safer. What's your solution to this?
Let's get rid of local in null and all problems go away.
I already posted several solutions to this and agreed to several others; but I'll recap:
- cloaks: too safe; the sonar scanner posted several hundreds of pages ago sounds like a lot of fun so I'd roll with that one. - local intel: too safe; I'd go with delayed local to give potential hunters the time to locate someone (or at least load grid). - mining ... not safe enough; these guys need scan-down signatures in addition to anoms. - observatory arrays with the ability to mask ships as blues (subvert intel) or remove them from local: go for it! Deploying one's own observatory array in a system 1-2 jumps out should allow this. - cloaky nullified T3s: beyond too safe: should not exist. Either nullified or cloaky-- not both simultaneously. - hotdrops: too safe; it would help to get a 40 second timer after decloak to allow combat before a drop happens.
The end result, would make scouting an active role; risking either losing the scout while you were alt-tabbed, or risking no scout at all and checking DScan. It would return danger to those who don't put in effort, and preserve the safety of those who do keep eyes on DScan / gates and take the time to scan their holes. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony Mordus Angels
871
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 02:38:21 -
[8027] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: In short these guys want all the advantage. Even suggesting a change like the OA gets their old ladies panties in a knot. Especially if it means removing local. I have been reading and participating in these threads for at least 4 years, and the general consensus is, "We secured the space we should be able to use it....without facing any risk." They want cloaking fuel to make AFK cloaking simply go away. They want a decloaking pulse to make cloaking go away. They want T2 probes to make AFK cloaking go away. They want all of these things so they can make AFK cloaking go away and not have to actually...you know...defend "their" (bahahahahaha) sovereign space.
Some do indeed display an ennerving degree of entitlement (quite often renters, true that).
But I do want AFK cloakers to go away; because you either make a move or you don't. You can't just postpone it for weeks on end and still call dibs on initiative- that doesn't sound right to me.
It is rather balanced, but this kind of mexican standoffs just isn't good for the game. It's supposed to be entertaining! (implying EvE is fun .... yarr, I know ;-) -- still, I do believe there has to be another way. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2465
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Posted - 2016.11.28 06:58:40 -
[8028] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dracvlad wrote:....when a AFK cloaky camper goes any where near me.... Never ever happened.
Earlier you suggested that people do not get upset with cloaky AFK camping in NPC null, you are wrong, I saw people get upset with that strategy there. And it was in Stain that I had certain Russians park ships in local when I was ratting and all I would do is go next door and an hour later they would appear and park up in that system, so I would move again. Lame lame and double lame.
It was also Stain where I was blanket cloaky camped by account sharing NCDOT players, it was Stain where I saw people melt away due to a targeted cloaky AFK camping campaign by low skilled camper characters just before the NCDOT campaign, I did not though and killed the toe rag by setting him up on his troll mobile depots. And by the way NCDOT were one of the alliances that kicked you out of your space, a space which you did not fight for, but ran away from. I have some friends in your alliance, and two days ago I was told that your alliance is in Curse.
When I was in your alliance I saw people whine about the Evoke campers in the best ratting system in Cloud Ring, I went to a system which was not that good and ratted there in peace, and hardly ever got bothered while people whined about the campers in XZH-4X and gave away silly losses because they were not in fleets etc.
You have a habit of being wrong about almost everything you post on and your words are hollow because your alliance certainly did not do what you preach except in late EU TZ and even then not very well.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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John Amton
Shadows of Earth Das Fornax Protektorat
3
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Posted - 2016.11.28 11:45:31 -
[8029] - Quote
Oh deer.
Me thinks the biggest issue originates from a Cyno/Cloak fit. Make it either/or so people can still cyno but have to atctualy do it fast since a cloaky cyno is actually a threat noone can predict and currently noone can counter.
Or do it like this: Implement a activateable jammer that, when activated, instantly deactivates the cloak of every ship with a cyno on in the current system and blocks it for a certain amount of time, however this uses some sort of fuel.
I mean, there are people who argue that this removes the surprise-buttsekcs aspect of a cyno, but imo this should be limited to hit&run tactics since a surprise is something you didn't see coming, however with a perma cloaker you never know what's going to happen.
In addition (to stop a Gaben), you can always hinder people to make ISK by simply either drop into their systems with some mass or invade it with your own alliance.
I for my part got shot down by a non-cloaky dropper corp and I think that's actually quite fair play since I had time to react but didn't, so my shiny ship went poof.
TL;DR: AFK players don't kill people, that's right. AFK cynos however kill the fairness. |
Lillith Sakata
Nobody in Local Of Sound Mind
41
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Posted - 2016.11.28 17:18:31 -
[8030] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote: Local pretty much guarantees no fun for PvPers given PvEers in sov null can escape literally 100% of the time. Yet you still want to make PvEing even safer. What's your solution to this?
Let's get rid of local in null and all problems go away.
I used to be very much against getting rid of Local. I held on to it like a safety net... or pacifier.
Then I moved to a place that doesn't have local. And it is nice. And I've not been AFKamped since. Without local, I've not had to worry "Oh there is a red guy in local, I better stay docked because he knows I'm here". I rat, mine, huff, run data/relic sites. And I watch my D-Scanner for probes or ship tags I don't know.
When there is Nobody in Local, others don't know I'm here either. Makes me more SA.FE. (yeah pun intended)
He's safer too -- at least unless I'm looking for content... then he has to watch his D-Scanner, because if he isn't, I'll make sure to capitalize on it.
Seriously though, Local is a disease, and AFKamping is the symptom. Now that I've lived without local, watched ships fly on by in d-scan and kept trucking along, instead of sitting in a station all damned day because there was a *chance* that some idiot wasn't fully AFK....
I despise high, low, and null. Local is trash, please toss it where trash belongs. |
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
817
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Posted - 2016.11.28 18:21:52 -
[8031] - Quote
Xcom wrote:If you find that imbalanced then start a thread and reason why people in station can't be killed. Don't come to a cloaky thread and complain about it. I could be sitting here and reason that cloaked ships are connected to any number of random reasons just to drag the conversation to the gutter.
This isn't connect the dots. Cloaking is connected to the game yes but it is with clear evidence close to invulnerability. At least with citadels you as a player can force people to undock. Stations may or may not be changed to move in the same directions as citadels, but that's for time to tell and nothing to do with cloaked ships.
Don't sit here and claim you can kill someone in a citadel. The length of the invulnerability timers means anyone can escape. Also, assets in destroyed citadels need to drop in space everywhere. It's insane that your assets are 100% safe in any player made structure.
Xcom wrote:Yes but the intel gathering, prolonged stalemate of locking a player in system without being able to affect the outcome other then waiting the stailmait out and the ability to activate some modules that do not need ship lock tips it in a lopsided favour. If your ship would turn into a flying brick without the intel gathering cloaks would be perfectly balanced, but that's not the case.
These 3 points amongst other are the reason why cloaking is not balanced. 1. Intel gathering without any drawback. 2. Ability to engage with limited drawbacks (easily circumnavigated), because of point 1 tipping the hand heavily in the cloaked ships favour. 3. Reduced quality of gameplay when cloaks force the engagement to a stalemate where only one side of the party having the ability to break it.
Clearly as a gameplay perspective its evidenced to show imbalance when you look at the points above. Obviously if you start looking at it from an ingame perspective where cloaks have a role to play in the grand scheme of things then you can easily start to justify it from any number of standpoints. But isolated the module itself and the cloaking ability in EvE is not balanced, evidently from all the complaints.
Intel gathering without any drawback is a problem. Cloaks do give you a drawback. You can't attack or earn ISK when cloaked. Local chat is intel without any drawback, so let's nerf that.
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:I already posted several solutions to this and agreed to several others; but I'll recap:
- cloaks: too safe; the sonar scanner posted several hundreds of pages ago sounds like a lot of fun so I'd roll with that one. - local intel: too safe; I'd go with delayed local to give potential hunters the time to locate someone (or at least load grid). - mining ... not safe enough; these guys need scan-down signatures in addition to anoms. - observatory arrays with the ability to mask ships as blues (subvert intel) or remove them from local: go for it! Deploying one's own observatory array in a system 1-2 jumps out should allow this. - cloaky nullified T3s: beyond too safe: should not exist. Either nullified or cloaky-- not both simultaneously. - hotdrops: too safe; it would help to get a 40 second timer after decloak to allow combat before a drop happens.
The end result, would make scouting an active role; risking either losing the scout while you were alt-tabbed, or risking no scout at all and checking DScan. It would return danger to those who don't put in effort, and preserve the safety of those who do keep eyes on DScan / gates and take the time to scan their holes.
Mining isn't safe enough? You will literally never be caught if you watch local. Miners being AFK watching netflix is the issue.
hotdrops: you're risking multi billion ISK ships to kill a retriever. If you mine/rat in groups while in fleet and on comms in PvP fits, hot drops are a non issue. A cloaky nullified T3 doesn't do much damage at all, a proper group PvEing together would destroy that T3.
So the real question it seems is why are people PvE-ing solo in null? |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2468
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 18:44:22 -
[8032] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:So the real question it seems is why are people PvE-ing solo in null?
So why do people solo in WH space?
Local in sov null will be controlled by an OA which you can shoot to remove it, don't like local shoot it, simple as.
Lillith Sakata
null sec and lowsec are subject to hot drops, instant I win button with instant delivery, in your WH you can take steps to block them with bubbles and collapse WH's, you have scouts to watch in the next door WH, which gives you some warning, and they still have to burn to you. It is not instant, so there is a chance for good players to strip away the tackle and GTFO, not so with a hot drop, unless you are aligned and ready to warp as soon as someone uncloakeds which of course people like me do. But I cannot interdict the hotdrop unless I know where they are sitting ready to jump and bubble them at the right moment giving me time to clear the tackle and get away.
And it is what comes in on you that really hurts and it is instant, so in effect you compare apples to pears, I don't presume to insist on normal space being applied to WH space, WH is different and fun in it's own right, but the majority of WH players go all weak kneeded at being reported in local, stop whining and live with it.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
817
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 18:48:32 -
[8033] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Sonya Corvinus wrote:So the real question it seems is why are people PvE-ing solo in null? So why do people solo in WH space? Local in sov null will be controlled by an OA which you can shoot to remove it, don't like local shoot it, simple as.
A non issue given we don't whine and call for nerfs when we die because we're flying solo.
Our standing rule is if you are in WHs and not in the standing fleet and on comms, anyone can neut you out first as a first warning, destroy your ship as a second warning if you do it again, then you are kicked the third time.
Null could learn something. |
Lillith Sakata
Nobody in Local Of Sound Mind
42
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 18:49:01 -
[8034] - Quote
Quote:Mining isn't safe enough? You will literally never be caught if you watch local. Miners being AFK watching netflix is the issue.
This is true. The only addendum I would stick in is if they get rid of local, made people actually play the game instead of AFK mine all day, then they should perhaps make the cycle times / amount per cycle better. Sometimes I think they should anyways. Less players on means less fights, less ships getting blown up, less ships being made, less ore used, less bought, so the miners are really getting **** all over. So the way it stands, people have to AFK mine to make mining even worth it.
Of course if they stop the AFK mining then miners will in the end be happier either way. Less ore supply means more profit per unit. I still CBA to sit and stare at a rock all flippin day. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2468
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 18:58:30 -
[8035] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Sonya Corvinus wrote:So the real question it seems is why are people PvE-ing solo in null? So why do people solo in WH space? Local in sov null will be controlled by an OA which you can shoot to remove it, don't like local shoot it, simple as. A non issue given we don't whine and call for nerfs when we die because we're flying solo. Our standing rule is if you are in WHs and not in the standing fleet and on comms, anyone can neut you out first as a first warning, destroy your ship as a second warning if you do it again, then you are kicked the third time. Null could learn something.
You seem to have a beef with local...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Lillith Sakata
Nobody in Local Of Sound Mind
42
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 19:00:38 -
[8036] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Sonya Corvinus wrote:So the real question it seems is why are people PvE-ing solo in null? So why do people solo in WH space? Local in sov null will be controlled by an OA which you can shoot to remove it, don't like local shoot it, simple as. Lillith Sakatanull sec and lowsec are subject to hot drops, instant I win button with instant delivery, in your WH you can take steps to block them with bubbles and collapse WH's, you have scouts to watch in the next door WH, which gives you some warning, and they still have to burn to you. It is not instant, so there is a chance for good players to strip away the tackle and GTFO, not so with a hot drop, unless you are aligned and ready to warp as soon as someone uncloakeds which of course people like me do. But I cannot interdict the hotdrop unless I know where they are sitting ready to jump and bubble them at the right moment giving me time to clear the tackle and get away. And it is what comes in on you that really hurts and it is instant, so in effect you compare apples to pears, I don't presume to insist on normal space being applied to WH space, WH is different and fun in it's own right, but the majority of WH players go all weak kneeded at being reported in local, stop whining and live with it.
I could give two ***** if I get reported in intel or local. Actually I like it. Cause then I get this itch to cloak up and go watch a movie, occasionally pop back in to check dscan for PvE ships, on the off chance they grew a set and decided to pull em out.
Did you know that one cloaky ass-hat can completely shut down an entire system just by being in local? And often shut down an entire pocket because well, can't take out your battleships or carriers for 1-2 jumps, if there is a potential hot-drop-oclock guy pissin' about.
If local was gone, two things would happen. First off, I'd fly through, see your guys, drop in to say hi (maybe with friends), and then be gone one way or the other.
But as it is I see people in local AND see ships that are obviously carebearing, and I have a compelling reason to stay so long as local shows me people are in the system. If your guys aren't making money because of a potential outcome, they get unhappy, and log for the day (makin your corp/alliance less money, and lowering indexes) or some just f'k off to high sec or leave corp, etc.
I actually did post that maybe there should be some form of deployable that could help the sov holders (or other people that plan to stick around) see if people are coming in. It'd be something shootable, but then you'd know for sure, right?
Also an FYI - I don't have local actually *up* even in kspace. I might glance at it, but the only tool I care about is my dscanner. Most of the time people see neut/red and go dock up anyways. The fact that blops can even happen is so scary that most of kspace quakes any time a ship goes through. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2468
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 19:01:06 -
[8037] - Quote
Lillith Sakata wrote:Quote:Mining isn't safe enough? You will literally never be caught if you watch local. Miners being AFK watching netflix is the issue. This is true. The only addendum I would stick in is if they get rid of local, made people actually play the game instead of AFK mine all day, then they should perhaps make the cycle times / amount per cycle better. Sometimes I think they should anyways. Less players on means less fights, less ships getting blown up, less ships being made, less ore used, less bought, so the miners are really getting **** all over. So the way it stands, people have to AFK mine to make mining even worth it. Of course if they stop the AFK mining then miners will in the end be happier either way. Less ore supply means more profit per unit. I still CBA to sit and stare at a rock all flippin day.
AFK mine in 0.0 what a laugh, you seriously believe that people AFK mine in 0.0...
Well I never, some times people just amaze me with their lack of clairty...
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
|
Lillith Sakata
Nobody in Local Of Sound Mind
43
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 19:06:41 -
[8038] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:AFK mine in 0.0 what a laugh, you seriously believe that people AFK mine in 0.0... Well I never, some times people just amaze me with their lack of clairty...
You must not have been in 0.0 for long, or your corp/alliance is horrible and doesn't have control of their space. I have watched and even talked to people that semi-afk mine in nullsec all day. I used to be in a corp that had a standing fleet up, so the miners literally could AFK mine so long as they listened for a ping on TS. And they flew brick tanked boats. |
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
817
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 19:22:58 -
[8039] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:You seem to have a beef with local...
It's the single biggest thing in sov null preventing people from creating content. It's the only mechanic in the game with no counter.
Dracvlad wrote:AFK mine in 0.0 what a laugh, you seriously believe that people AFK mine in 0.0... Well I never, some times people just amaze me with their lack of clairty...
Stop trolling. I've jumped out of a WH into null and sat there watching 30 man mining fleets take 30 minutes to even realize I am there as a hostile. |
Lillith Sakata
Nobody in Local Of Sound Mind
43
|
Posted - 2016.11.28 19:25:18 -
[8040] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Dracvlad wrote:You seem to have a beef with local... It's the single biggest thing in sov null preventing people from creating content. It's the only mechanic in the game with no counter. Dracvlad wrote:AFK mine in 0.0 what a laugh, you seriously believe that people AFK mine in 0.0... Well I never, some times people just amaze me with their lack of clairty... Stop trolling. I've jumped out of a WH into null and sat there watching 30 man mining fleets take 30 minutes to even realize I am there as a hostile.
Maybe we should get together in LS/NS with a blops group, and say hi to them next time :D Content for us, learning experience for them? |
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