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AnarchoJohn Etnannarac
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
1
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Posted - 2015.01.13 02:56:32 -
[1] - Quote
I hear alot people talk about how Ishtar need to be nerfed. Instead of nerfing the Ishtar more maybe CCP should change Sentry drones instead.
I think splitting Sentry drones into Light /Medium /Heavy will help balance Ishtars, which would now use Medium sentries, instead of the Heavy Sentries used by battleships. The stats would change to reflect the smaller drone in lower range/dmg but maybe higher tracking.
Also having a light sentry would a interesting addition to frigate combat. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
470
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Posted - 2015.01.13 03:57:23 -
[2] - Quote
or make it so that a cruiser doesn't have the bandwidth to use battleship weapons
seems a lot simpler and doesn't add 8 more drones that will need to be balanced |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
875
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Posted - 2015.01.13 03:57:47 -
[3] - Quote
Oh boy, another Ishtar thread. Whee! *toots small kazoo*
And an original idea too! *another toot of the kazoo*
JK.
Will Your Graciousness be applying any compensation to the rest of the mediocre drone hulls that currently use sentries on medium platforms?
Will new medium sentries take up 25m3? 25 Bandwidth? 10? What would be their effective ranges?
What sort of damage would an unbonused set do, and how do you make then not useless as a primary weapon, and not overpowered on a ship with 50m3 bandwith and bay like the Thorax?
Are we preventing cruisers from using large sentries by changing the drones, or implementing a silly hard restriction?
Would an Ishtar unable to use large sentries still be able to use large heavies or gecko's?
If you hard restrict them from using large sentries and introduce medium and small sentries, are frig and dessie hulls hard restricted from using medium sentries as well?
Could you maybe flesh out you often proposed idea with a bit of effort in the proposal? |
Thelonious Blake
139
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Posted - 2015.01.13 03:58:30 -
[4] - Quote
I, personally, am against changing drones to what would be an imitation of the other weapon systems.
Let them be unique. They can be destroyed, they can be left behind, they can't be overheated.
With a single squad of bombers you can render whole ishtar fleet useless by destroying their weapons... |
Lugh Crow-Slave
470
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Posted - 2015.01.13 04:14:44 -
[5] - Quote
Thelonious Blake wrote: With a single squad of bombers you can render whole ishtar fleet useless by destroying their weapons...
I honestly don't care about ishtars but i do wish people would remember there are other areas of space than what they spend time in |
Abyss Azizora
Temporary Corp 12
155
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Posted - 2015.01.13 04:15:46 -
[6] - Quote
Thelonious Blake wrote: With a single squad of bombers you can render whole ishtar fleet useless by destroying their weapons...
That doesn't work in lowsec, which is primarily where I see the endless swarms of ishtars.
There is something inherently broken with ishtars when you see 10-20 ishtars in a row in lowsec, followed by (insert random ship here) then repeat. (And I'm honestly not exaggerating, I regularly see nothing but ishtars for long stretches of time.)
We all know they will be getting nerfed again, question is how. |
Thelonious Blake
139
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Posted - 2015.01.13 04:43:50 -
[7] - Quote
Abyss Azizora wrote:We all know they will be getting nerfed again, question is how.
I propose allowing bombs in lowsec |
Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
14
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Posted - 2015.01.13 06:23:38 -
[8] - Quote
Thelonious Blake wrote:I, personally, am against changing drones to what would be an imitation of the other weapon systems.
Let them be unique. They can be destroyed, they can be left behind, they can't be overheated.
With a single squad of bombers you can render whole ishtar fleet useless by destroying their weapons...
Or how about drone boats in general lose their drone HP buff, make shooting them a realistic option.
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AnarchoJohn Etnannarac
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
1
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Posted - 2015.01.13 06:25:46 -
[9] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Oh boy, another Ishtar thread. Whee! *toots small kazoo*
And an original idea too! *another toot of the kazoo*
JK.
Will Your Graciousness be applying any compensation to the rest of the mediocre drone hulls that currently use sentries on medium platforms?
Will new medium sentries take up 25m3? 25 Bandwidth? 10? What would be their effective ranges?
What sort of damage would an unbonused set do, and how do you make then not useless as a primary weapon, and not overpowered on a ship with 50m3 bandwith and bay like the Thorax?
Are we preventing cruisers from using large sentries by changing the drones, or implementing a silly hard restriction?
Would an Ishtar unable to use large sentries still be able to use large heavies or gecko's?
If you hard restrict them from using large sentries and introduce medium and small sentries, are frig and dessie hulls hard restricted from using medium sentries as well?
Could you maybe flesh out you often proposed idea with a bit of effort in the proposal?
Yeah I did take not all that into consideration! Splitting the sentries like I said is a very big change that affects alot more then Ishtars. I like the idea still but your right "Your Graciousness" would need to look the idea more.
If anyone else has anymore suggestion and thoughts on the idea that would be awesome!
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Lugh Crow-Slave
471
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Posted - 2015.01.13 06:28:11 -
[10] - Quote
Thelonious Blake wrote:I propose allowing bombs in lowsec
yeah then i don't need to use smart bombs anymore to disco gates i'll just slap my alts into bombers and point them at the gate
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Aplysia Vejun
The Scope Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2015.01.13 06:49:58 -
[11] - Quote
Abyss Azizora wrote:Thelonious Blake wrote: With a single squad of bombers you can render whole ishtar fleet useless by destroying their weapons...
That doesn't work in lowsec, which is primarily where I see the endless swarms of ishtars. There is something inherently broken with ishtars when you see 10-20 ishtars in a row in lowsec, followed by (insert random ship here) then repeat. (And I'm honestly not exaggerating, I regularly see nothing but ishtars for long stretches of time.) Leave gurista space... i havent seen another ishtar for weeks in serpentis and blood raider low. Mostly tengus and crows. Here and there a Proteus. (Not counting the many anathema, imicus etc) |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
1123
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Posted - 2015.01.13 06:55:35 -
[12] - Quote
Have you tried Sentries on an unbonused ship? They are next to unusable there. Having said that, all drones on Ishtars seem overpowered and imbalanced only because of the Ishtar's bonuses to drones. This opens up 2 ways to reduce the Ishtars viability as a fleet plattform and put it in line with other HAC's damage and application:
1. Most of the drone bonuses only apply to Light/Medium/Heavy drones. This makes Ishtars with Sentries next to worthless, but still allows their use with Geckos and Heavies for ratting and small PVP fleets where they would still be very tough ships to crack. One could argue that the Ishtar had lost its bonuses to the long-range weapon plattform whereas other HAC keep their bonuses for both short-range and long-range weapons alike; however, since L/M/H drones can be used up to 100km and further with DLA, it would make Ishtars just as bad as missile boats. The other argument is that Heavy Drones are also Battleship weapons, which sounds a bit like a hypocrisy to me to leave Ishtars with just another form of fully bonused BS weapons. 2. Reduce the bandwidth of the Isthar to only allow 4 sentries in space and maybe reduce the bandwidth of Heavies to still allow 5 Heavies in space. This would reduce the Ishtar damage by a fifth, which reduces the DPS of a Garde set from around 706 to 564 and all other drones accordingly.
These changes are not originally by me but are two a lot easier solutions to the problem than the introduction of yet another item to the game that CCP has trouble with balancing correctly.
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Sigras
Conglomo
993
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Posted - 2015.01.13 07:48:11 -
[13] - Quote
#1 seems strange to me because all of the other HACs get a range bonus, and the deimos is definitely the brawler of the two... It seems fitting that the ishtar should be the skirmishing one
#2 seems wrong because a dedicated sentry boat should probably be able to field a full flight of sentries... What if it could ONLY field a flight of sentries/heavies? Say it had 5 drone bandwidth and a 96% reduction to the drone bandwidth of sentry and heavy drones |
Aplysia Vejun
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2015.01.13 09:23:20 -
[14] - Quote
Sigras wrote: #2 seems wrong because a dedicated sentry boat should probably be able to field a full flight of sentries... What if it could ONLY field a flight of sentries/heavies? Say it had 5 drone bandwidth and a 96% reduction to the drone bandwidth of sentry and heavy drones
So... leave the fleet usage but kill all other uses of the ishtar? No salvage drones? No light drones? No chance against frigates anymore? No combat complexes anymore? No thanks |
Debora Tsung
Die Woge des Wahnsinns Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
1438
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Posted - 2015.01.13 10:11:32 -
[15] - Quote
Abyss Azizora wrote:Thelonious Blake wrote: With a single squad of bombers you can render whole ishtar fleet useless by destroying their weapons...
That doesn't work in lowsec, which is primarily where I see the endless swarms of ishtars. There is something inherently broken with ishtars when you see 10-20 ishtars in a row in lowsec, followed by (insert random ship here) then repeat. (And I'm honestly not exaggerating, I regularly see nothing but ishtars for long stretches of time.) We all know they will be getting nerfed again, question is how. That is until You enter the hobo part of Lowsec were nobody can afford Ishtars. ^_^
Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Fighting back is more fun than not.
Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1075
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Posted - 2015.01.13 10:59:01 -
[16] - Quote
Should just make drones have a mode
A) Mobile mode (mobile, close range, more DPS, more tracking) B) Sentry mode (stationary, long range, more alpha, less tracking)
Remove sentries.
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Gregor Parud
895
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Posted - 2015.01.13 11:04:58 -
[17] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Should just make drones have a mode
A) Mobile mode (mobile, close range, more DPS, more tracking) B) Sentry mode (stationary, long range, more alpha, less tracking)
Remove sentries.
While an interesting idea the coding for it would be giving CCP nightmares, and the glitches/bugs/possible lol features would give us nightmares :P
Sentries in and of themselves are fine, being able to have others control your drones is part of the problem but in this case it's simply cruisers being able to use 5 sentries, which is dumb as fck. |
Ix Method
Shadows Legion High-Sec Tomfoolery
376
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Posted - 2015.01.13 11:12:37 -
[18] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Should just make drones have a mode
A) Mobile mode (mobile, close range, more DPS, more tracking) B) Sentry mode (stationary, long range, more alpha, less tracking)
Remove sentries.
If they got a tank buff when stationary this might actually fix a few things in one fell swoop.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Gregor Parud
895
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Posted - 2015.01.13 11:17:46 -
[19] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Should just make drones have a mode
A) Mobile mode (mobile, close range, more DPS, more tracking) B) Sentry mode (stationary, long range, more alpha, less tracking)
Remove sentries.
If they got a tank buff when stationary this might actually fix a few things in one fell swoop.
Actually it would cause lots of balancing issues, where they would have to lower dronebays and all that, because it would remove the need to make choices in regards to which drones to bring. Making them more versatile is not the answer and adds nothing but complexity nor would it solve any issues.
- remove ability to assign normal drones to others - remove lol bandwidth from cruisers
Problem solved.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
472
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Posted - 2015.01.13 11:19:04 -
[20] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Should just make drones have a mode
A) Mobile mode (mobile, close range, more DPS, more tracking) B) Sentry mode (stationary, long range, more alpha, less tracking)
Remove sentries.
If they got a tank buff when stationary this might actually fix a few things in one fell swoop.
yeah but how much work would it be to code.....
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14475
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Posted - 2015.01.13 11:36:11 -
[21] - Quote
Thelonious Blake wrote:
With a single squad of bombers you can render whole ishtar fleet useless by destroying their weapons...
This doesn't work all that well a lot of the time.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Quantum Distributions
1344
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Posted - 2015.01.13 11:39:04 -
[22] - Quote
I have to admit, I still don't understand why we have cruisers with 125mb bandwidth. The ishtar is in a strange spot now where it has the dps of a domi with worse tracking. Doesn't make sense at all at cruiser size.
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Gregor Parud
895
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Posted - 2015.01.13 11:53:45 -
[23] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:I have to admit, I still don't understand why we have cruisers with 125mb bandwidth. The ishtar is in a strange spot now where it has the dps of a domi with worse tracking. Doesn't make sense at all at cruiser size.
In another thread I proposed the following:
- drop bandwidth to 75-100m3 based on other rebalancing (also affects the Nvexor) - remove sentry range bonus, keep the tracking one - remove drone assigning
Problems would be solved instantly while it can still do enough ranged dps compared to other HACS.
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Solj RichPopolous
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
119
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Posted - 2015.01.13 12:40:06 -
[24] - Quote
hmm this all makes sense. i never put 2 and 2 together. Ishtars have been appearing alot vs other HACs in my kill list, but I never saw them as any better than the others but I now see its because they like to nano and drop sentries, just never seemed effective in any of my scenarios as they miss like hell, ishtar gets scrammed and dies. |
Ix Method
Shadows Legion High-Sec Tomfoolery
376
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Posted - 2015.01.13 12:43:40 -
[25] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:yeah but how much work would it be to code.... None of us know, which is why variations on this theme have won 'Worst Recurring Stupid Comment in F&I' for three years running.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
894
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Posted - 2015.01.13 12:49:36 -
[26] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:...
- remove ability to assign normal drones to others ...
I'd prefer to just drop this to a pilot being able to control drone interfacing + advanced drone interfacing drones in space at any one time whether they are their own or assigned drones. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1159
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Posted - 2015.01.13 13:13:21 -
[27] - Quote
To the OP: I've always felt that different sizes of sentries would be a neat idea, but gimping the Ishtar by forcing it to use medium sentry drones is not how you fix it.
I used to be part of the "Grr Battleship DPS on a cruiser" crowd, but when you get right down to it, the issue with Sentry Ishtars isn't their damage (which really isn't that great), it's their application. You can easily get 600-ish DPS out of a heavy drone Ishtar, yet people rarely complain about them because heavy drones are slow, take time to apply their damage from any kind of range (i.e. travel time), and, can be webbed/shot by close-range fits. They're very well balanced in the grand scheme of things.
While 600-ish DPS at close range is a good place for a HAC to be, 500-ish DPS from 100+km away that applies instantly and tracks well is what is not. It's not about sentries being broken or the Ishtar having too much bandwidth, it's about the fact that the Ishtar can project close-range DPS, instantly and with good tracking, at long ranges.
Fixing the Ishtar is easy: replace the bonuses to Drone Control Range and Sentry Drone Optimal Range with something else. Agility, drone bay*, reduced CPU for drone module usage, etc. It will still make a good Sentry platform, and it may still be pretty powerful, but without being able to apply sentry damage quite so far away, it'll be much more in line with other HACs.
*If the Ishtar gets a bonus to drone bay, the current drone bay should be scaled back such that at HAC IV, the drone bay is the same as what it currently has.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1159
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Posted - 2015.01.13 13:19:10 -
[28] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:I have to admit, I still don't understand why we have cruisers with 125mb bandwidth. The ishtar is in a strange spot now where it has the dps of a domi with worse tracking. Doesn't make sense at all at cruiser size. It makes sense at the cruiser size because the Ishtar and the Vexor Navy Issue (the other 125mb bandwidth cruiser that nobody seems to mind) have essentially zero DPS coming from regular weapons. They rely almost entirely on their drones for damage output, whereas battleships (Domi and 'Geddon in particular) have 125mb bandwidth worth of damage bonsued drones, but also a full rack of weapons and enough slots to squeeze good DPS and tank out of everything.
The issue with Ishtar is application. It can do 500-ish DPS out to 100+km, which is kind of much for a HAC. Kill the bonuses that make the Ishtar able to do that (control range, sentry optimal), and the Ishtar suddenly becomes more like the VNI, not the subject of many a threadnaught.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
875
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Posted - 2015.01.13 17:09:17 -
[29] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:I have to admit, I still don't understand why we have cruisers with 125mb bandwidth. The ishtar is in a strange spot now where it has the dps of a domi with worse tracking. Doesn't make sense at all at cruiser size. It makes sense at the cruiser size because the Ishtar and the Vexor Navy Issue (the other 125mb bandwidth cruiser that nobody seems to mind) have essentially zero DPS coming from regular weapons. They rely almost entirely on their drones for damage output, whereas battleships (Domi and 'Geddon in particular) have 125mb bandwidth worth of damage bonsued drones, but also a full rack of weapons and enough slots to squeeze good DPS and tank out of everything. The issue with Ishtar is application. It can do 500-ish DPS out to 100+km, which is kind of much for a HAC. Kill the bonuses that make the Ishtar able to do that (control range, sentry optimal), and the Ishtar suddenly becomes more like the VNI, not the subject of many a threadnaught.
And what does it get in return for being gutted? |
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