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Darian Frey
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.01.15 09:32:45 -
[1] - Quote
Just a really quick question before I do something I could regret...!
Is it normally to have to provide a never ending API key when joining a Corp to prove I'm not a machine or is it just part of a scam that I haven't figured out yet? |
J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5453
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Posted - 2015.01.15 09:43:43 -
[2] - Quote
It is normal to ask for an API. But, most likely they only need it for a security/background screening.
However, there are also corps that require an API (usually a very limited one) to be able to access their forums/voice comms. This, again, for security reasons.
The first, ask them if a temporary API would work. If not, ask why they need a endless one. But, yes it is normal people ask for an API.
Also, you can always delete it if you arent happy about people using your API.
As for the 2nd example, usually that API only need the information that gives away in which corp you are. If said corp matches their whitelist, you can access their forums/voice comms.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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Gregor Parud
909
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Posted - 2015.01.15 09:48:15 -
[3] - Quote
If it's a proper well structured corp that has recruitment requirements, a goal and the means to get there then sure, give them your API. If it's just a clown corp that isn't going anywhere at all then you might rethink it.
They can't really do anything with it other than gain intel on you, your alts, who your friends are, your mails etc etc etc. But since intel = power it's not something you just want to throw around. Make a habit of removing the API key after they are done with it (unless it's needed for continued security, as explained above) |
Charlie Jacobson
282
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Posted - 2015.01.15 09:54:13 -
[4] - Quote
Out of curiosity, what are the main things they check for with that API that isn't publicly available? |
Chal0ner
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
96
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Posted - 2015.01.15 10:20:25 -
[5] - Quote
Charlie Jacobson wrote:Out of curiosity, what are the main things they check for with that API that isn't publicly available?
Payments to/from known enemies could be one. mails to/from known enemies known enemy alts
It depends on how intrusive they want the API. |
Memphis Baas
63
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Posted - 2015.01.15 10:53:06 -
[6] - Quote
Usually they are checking to see if you're an enemy spy. So they check your alts, and they look at your wallet history because people with multiple accounts and multiple alts often send money between them. |
Liana Stenier
Cult of the Lash
0
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Posted - 2015.01.15 11:21:32 -
[7] - Quote
Darian Frey wrote:Just a really quick question before I do something I could regret...!
Is it normally to have to provide a never ending API key when joining a Corp to prove I'm not a machine or is it just part of a scam that I haven't figured out yet?
For some corps, it's policy -- I asked to join one that wanted a non-expiring full-access key , and when I asked if I cold give them a limited-access key, they said 'You can delete it when you leave the corp'.
Personally, I don't give anyone that level of access. Would you ask me for my bank account number and my mailbox key if I were applying to work with your real-world company? I don't think so, and I would refuse if you asked. |
Velicitia
XS Tech
2763
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Posted - 2015.01.15 12:44:11 -
[8] - Quote
Liana Stenier wrote:Darian Frey wrote:Just a really quick question before I do something I could regret...!
Is it normally to have to provide a never ending API key when joining a Corp to prove I'm not a machine or is it just part of a scam that I haven't figured out yet? For some corps, it's policy -- I asked to join one that wanted a non-expiring full-access key , and when I asked if I cold give them a limited-access key, they said 'You can delete it when you leave the corp'. Personally, I don't give anyone that level of access. Would you ask me for my bank account number and my mailbox key if I were applying to work with your real-world company? I don't think so, and I would refuse if you asked.
Except that an API key isn't your bank acct number /mailbox key. Its access to your email sure (and other stuff), but what company these days *doesn't* say that they reserve the right to go thru your corporate email?
Tbh, in my experience, it's easier to get a full key (even for a month) because people tend to have trouble making limited ones. At least if you're limited to in-game channels (e.g. just starting out / don't have a corp site).
Now, if we're talking about an "established" group that has forums or some other out of game resource to provide recruits with the link for the desired key (e.g. standings, corp, other "minor" things) then that's fine too.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
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J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5455
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Posted - 2015.01.15 13:02:04 -
[9] - Quote
Liana Stenier wrote:Darian Frey wrote:Just a really quick question before I do something I could regret...!
Is it normally to have to provide a never ending API key when joining a Corp to prove I'm not a machine or is it just part of a scam that I haven't figured out yet? For some corps, it's policy -- I asked to join one that wanted a non-expiring full-access key , and when I asked if I cold give them a limited-access key, they said 'You can delete it when you leave the corp'. Personally, I don't give anyone that level of access. Would you ask me for my bank account number and my mailbox key if I were applying to work with your real-world company? I don't think so, and I would refuse if you asked.
Too bad many big corps actually do a very deep background check when you apply for a job there.
Including, but not limited to:
* Ask / demand / look up criminal record history or lack there of. * A full digital background check. What sites are you linked to and what did you put out there on the world wide web.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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Chal0ner
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
96
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Posted - 2015.01.15 13:10:36 -
[10] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Liana Stenier wrote:Darian Frey wrote:Just a really quick question before I do something I could regret...!
Is it normally to have to provide a never ending API key when joining a Corp to prove I'm not a machine or is it just part of a scam that I haven't figured out yet? For some corps, it's policy -- I asked to join one that wanted a non-expiring full-access key , and when I asked if I cold give them a limited-access key, they said 'You can delete it when you leave the corp'. Personally, I don't give anyone that level of access. Would you ask me for my bank account number and my mailbox key if I were applying to work with your real-world company? I don't think so, and I would refuse if you asked. Too bad many big corps actually do a very deep background check when you apply for a job there. Including, but not limited to: * Ask / demand / look up criminal record history or lack there of. * A full digital background check. What sites are you linked to and what did you put out there on the world wide web.
For a second I was confused as to wether you ment in-game or RL corporations ...
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Gregor Parud
909
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Posted - 2015.01.15 13:32:11 -
[11] - Quote
Chal0ner wrote:For a second I was confused as to wether you ment in-game or RL corporations ...
Yeah, RL corporations can't hope to have the same level of back ground checking, leadership expertise, teamwork, security and intel gathering as we have here. The notion that fat, baby boomer lead, Ponzi scheme cubicle companies would even be on par with the organised entities we have here is preposterous.
Amateurs!
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
668
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Posted - 2015.01.15 13:34:09 -
[12] - Quote
Liana Stenier wrote:Personally, I don't give anyone that level of access. Would you ask me for my bank account number... ...if I were applying to work with your real-world company?
Yes, if you want to get paid at any point... |
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
226
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Posted - 2015.01.15 15:47:39 -
[13] - Quote
Giving out the 'forever' API always sounds bad, however managing it can be a real pain in the butt.
Example: Many bigger corps use the API for their voice comms, forums, reimbursement etc systems outside of Eve. If you really wish to keep the API info all nice and protected, your likely re-setting your API info on the forums, voice system, reimbursement systems blah blah blah every few weeks.
I found that protecting that info comes at a high opportunity cost in time if you need access to all that other stuff to play the game.
Risk vs Reward: how important is it to you that no person ever finds out about how much bounty iso your making when ratting or about that ship you have all nice and secure in personal hangers somewhere in Highsec that the corp would never be able to get at anyways? How much do you really care about deleting all the Eve mail you've ever gotten ever?
how much time is it worth to protect that info for you?
Personal conclusion: Forever API keys are only a major security problem for important accounts / characters in game. Joe line member or bob random in high sec really has nothing that valuable made available via API in the first place. Easier to set and forget and get back to playing if its needed to fly with the group you actually have fun flying with. |
Trey Kutoi
Nyarlthotep Holdings Ltd.
35
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Posted - 2015.01.15 16:12:38 -
[14] - Quote
to be honest, one thing that scares me is the sheer amount of stuff in the API. Too much stuff tied to real life. I play eve to get away from it all, yet have the threat always hanging overhead. |
Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
859
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Posted - 2015.01.15 16:16:24 -
[15] - Quote
"Forever" APIs are only forever until you delete them. Make a separate one for each corp your apply to, always make them "forever", and delete them when you want to instead of letting them expire.
Most corps that require them just use them for recruiting (to check if you are a spy) but keep them on file just in case something bad happens (theft, awoxing) and an investigation needs to be made.
The bank account analogy is silly because APIs are view-only. And many companies do ask for your bank account number so they can direct deposit...not to mention your date of birth and social security number....
Unless you ARE a spy, or have some personal business secrets (market ventures etc.), APIs are no big deal. Anyone that tells you otherwise likely has a very inflated view of their own self-worth (no one cares how much money you have or what you are doing with it). That is assuming the corp isn't plotting against you already, which they don't need an API for.
There are exceptions of course. If I were suddenly to up and leave my corp I would need to scrub my mails of any director-level corp intel before I went giving out my API to anyone. But for the average member this is not an issue.
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
GSLLC is recruiting
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J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5458
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Posted - 2015.01.15 16:27:17 -
[16] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:"Forever" APIs are only forever until you delete them. Make a separate one for each corp your apply to, always make them "forever", and delete them when you want to instead of letting them expire.
Most corps that require them just use them for recruiting (to check if you are a spy) but keep them on file just in case something bad happens (theft, awoxing) and an investigation needs to be made.
The bank account analogy is silly because APIs are view-only. And many companies do ask for your bank account number so they can direct deposit...not to mention your date of birth and social security number....
Unless you ARE a spy, or have some personal business secrets (market ventures etc.), APIs are no big deal. Anyone that tells you otherwise likely has a very inflated view of their own self-worth (no one cares how much money you have or what you are doing with it). That is assuming the corp isn't plotting against you already, which they don't need an API for.
There are exceptions of course. If I were suddenly to up and leave my corp I would need to scrub my mails of any director-level corp intel before I went giving out my API to anyone. But for the average member this is not an issue.
Uhm even deleted mails stay in the API for some time Cara... IIRC
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
859
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Posted - 2015.01.15 16:29:53 -
[17] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Uhm even deleted mails stay in the API for some time Cara... IIRC Good to know. Guess I'm stuck with you all for a while....
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
GSLLC is recruiting
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Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
111
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Posted - 2015.01.15 17:57:26 -
[18] - Quote
As a recruiter I ask for full api for all accounts, no exceptions. They can be temprorary as I normally do the checks as soon as I get them.
Things I and most competant recruiters are actually looking for:
large transfers of isk between characters, especially characters I don't have APIs for Corporate wallet withdrawals, usually if the guy is a wormholer I ignore anything less then a couple bill of isk because of sleeper loot payouts, but large sums being withdrawn suddenly is a strong indication of corp theft. Large amounts of selling items/ships without history of having bought those items/ships Checking assets for ships the character cannot fly/large bulk amounts of items but no history of being a trader Evemails, specifically anything that might show tendancy to reveal information/spying
Generally, it's all about the isk and following it. Spies that aren't very good usually leave little paper trails with the isk and assets rather then in their mails, items that the character sells without having bought them/history of regular player trades/contracts/ buying items for unusually low prices from the same characters then reselling for large profit are usual tells that a player is trying to feed a spy alt isk on the quiet. As long as everything all adds up in a nice package I'm normally happy to tell the applicant to go ahead and delete the api once we get them in for a teamspeak interview. We strictly manage hangar/pos access, so even if a corp thief got in the damage they could do is very limited till they've been 'in' for a good while and most just aren't that patient. Still, this is eve and anything is possible.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4530
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Posted - 2015.01.15 18:47:38 -
[19] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:* Ask / demand / look up criminal record history or lack there of. * A full digital background check. What sites are you linked to and what did you put out there on the world wide web. Phew! My BITNET personna is safe.
You can find my Q-Link and CompuServe account if you search really hard. Nothing on my GEnie account though. |
Dradis Aulmais
By Light and Banner's Fallen
621
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Posted - 2015.01.15 18:52:15 -
[20] - Quote
I have always required a full apo key with no expry from my members. I usually only keep it for a month unless you have a role that gives you access to any corp assets or responsiblity |
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
99
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Posted - 2015.01.15 19:22:16 -
[21] - Quote
Are there any corps don't treat applicants like Stasi?
The corp system looks seriously poisoned ...
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
112
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Posted - 2015.01.15 19:24:24 -
[22] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Are there any corps don't treat applicants like Stasi? The corp system looks seriously poisoned ...
Until there's a way to give people roles to do jobs without also exposing the corp to some degree of risk, especially so in w-space where you HAVE to live out of a pos, APIs will always be needed.
Unless spying becomes banned, APIs will always be needed.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
99
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Posted - 2015.01.15 19:32:18 -
[23] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Are there any corps don't treat applicants like Stasi? The corp system looks seriously poisoned ... Until there's a way to give people roles to do jobs without also exposing the corp to some degree of risk, especially so in w-space where you HAVE to live out of a pos, APIs will always be needed. Unless spying becomes banned, APIs will always be needed. Roles, maybe different. The posts above talk about API keys of every line member and reading all mails ... and spies ... how many reveal themselves via API keys?
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
112
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Posted - 2015.01.15 19:42:52 -
[24] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Are there any corps don't treat applicants like Stasi? The corp system looks seriously poisoned ... Until there's a way to give people roles to do jobs without also exposing the corp to some degree of risk, especially so in w-space where you HAVE to live out of a pos, APIs will always be needed. Unless spying becomes banned, APIs will always be needed. Roles, maybe different. The posts above talk about API keys of every line member and reading all mails ... and spies ... how many reveal themselves via API keys?
You would be suprised. Most people with spy accounts find clever ways to feed them isk so they don't actually have to 'grind' on their alt for the monthly plex. I've already listed several tells that can only be found via the api, and only one of them really involving the mail.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5463
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Posted - 2015.01.15 19:57:06 -
[25] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Are there any corps don't treat applicants like Stasi? The corp system looks seriously poisoned ... Until there's a way to give people roles to do jobs without also exposing the corp to some degree of risk, especially so in w-space where you HAVE to live out of a pos, APIs will always be needed. Unless spying becomes banned, APIs will always be needed. Roles, maybe different. The posts above talk about API keys of every line member and reading all mails ... and spies ... how many reveal themselves via API keys?
A. Of course. Prevention is better then curing...So you want to stop the "bad guy" from entering in teh first place.
B. Ooh, you would be amazed how many people are stupid enough to leave such a paper trail that it just screams: LOOK, I'M A SPY/THIEF/AWOXER.
And funny thing, when you confront them about it, they get all defensive.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
99
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Posted - 2015.01.15 20:27:56 -
[26] - Quote
I think the real problem is, that you can't lie about the information exposed via the API key ... It's the same pattern as the poisoned AFK cloaking discussions, caused by not being able to lie about your existence in the system. A game full of disguise and outsmarting people is not suited well for elements of truth.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Memphis Baas
64
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Posted - 2015.01.15 21:19:26 -
[27] - Quote
Well of course they get defensive. If they admit to being a spy, awoxer, or thief, would you let them in the corp, for being brave and telling the truth?
To me it would be interesting to know what you do with squeaky clean accounts, and with the applicants who are upfront about having been in whatever enemy alliance and just say they didn't like it there. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4531
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Posted - 2015.01.15 21:24:32 -
[28] - Quote
Not sure if this has been posted yet: http://v.cdn.cad-comic.com/comics/cad-20120625-8bb4c.png
Not really true, as there are corps in EVE without any requirements, notably Brave Newbies Inc., Red Federation, Blue Republic. |
J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5474
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Posted - 2015.01.15 21:27:26 -
[29] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Well of course they get defensive. If they admit to being a spy, awoxer, or thief, would you let them in the corp, for being brave and telling the truth?
To me it would be interesting to know what you do with squeaky clean accounts, and with the applicants who are upfront about having been in whatever enemy alliance and just say they didn't like it there.
In the past (haven't recruited in a while), honesty would have gotten you a long long way.
A new character that is obviously an alt of a more seasoned player, that hid that from me during recruitment (while, you could easily tell he is a vet)...instant No-Go.
A new character that is upfront about being a new character of a veteran and that he has flown with "x" and "y" in the past or did profession "A" or "B"...would most likely be accepted unless something really really fishy comes up. Benefit of the doubt aswel as honesty are there for a reason.
With me, it wasn't the API most of the time that told me to recruit or not recruit a person.
It was the actual conversation (both chat and on TS) that would do the trick. An API is just factual numbers, a good convo can tell you a whole lot more about someone.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
112
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Posted - 2015.01.15 21:34:24 -
[30] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:Well of course they get defensive. If they admit to being a spy, awoxer, or thief, would you let them in the corp, for being brave and telling the truth?
To me it would be interesting to know what you do with squeaky clean accounts, and with the applicants who are upfront about having been in whatever enemy alliance and just say they didn't like it there. In the past (haven't recruited in a while), honesty would have gotten you a long long way. A new character that is obviously an alt of a more seasoned player, that hid that from me during recruitment (while, you could easily tell he is a vet)...instant No-Go. A new character that is upfront about being a new character of a veteran and that he has flown with "x" and "y" in the past or did profession "A" or "B"...would most likely be accepted unless something really really fishy comes up. Benefit of the doubt aswel as honesty are there for a reason. With me, it wasn't the API most of the time that told me to recruit or not recruit a person. It was the actual conversation (both chat and on TS) that would do the trick. An API is just factual numbers, a good convo can tell you a whole lot more about someone.
This is why we combine TS interviews alongside the API checks. We tend to deliver a bit of a barrage of questions, both to judge general aptitude/personality/whether they can deal with our banter, and you can quickly tell who's a genuine newbie and who's a vet.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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