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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
24
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Posted - 2015.01.17 01:02:13 -
[31] - Quote
T3's are the well known and welcomed battle horses of this game.
Leave them alone please, CCP made a very risky step when added those into the game. They were like something unique and unusual vs. everything else already exists.
They do their job well and to change just make them messy.
If you need something new to fly at, think harder and offer brand new hull no matter it's gonna be T2 or faction ones.
So ( - 1) to the whole idea.
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4Rum Alt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.01.28 05:24:30 -
[32] - Quote
I for one don't think T3's are OP. Many Eve players fail to miss the point of what exactly a T3 cruiser is. A T3 ship is a cruiser fused with ancient and advanced sleeper technology. You have to think about what makes a sleeper ship a sleeper ship. They are much tougher ships for their ship classes and do much more dps for their ship class.
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Sigras
Conglomo
998
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Posted - 2015.01.28 05:33:25 -
[33] - Quote
Rroff wrote:I've never seen the advantage of being able to fully refit them on the fly (and it doesn't really work as a generalisation) but there are instances when it could be useful i.e. if your PVE fit tengu gets jumped and you could swap to a PVP fit it could be handy which I guess could be potentially doable T3 destroy style if certain slots you could fit a module + alternative module into and switch between main and alternative with 1 press i.e. say 1 mid was alternatively a cap recharger or a scram.
EDIT: Possibly a bit OP but would fit the flavour and be kind of cool if they had say 1 high, 2 mid, 1 low slots that had an alternative module that could be enabled with a bastion/siege style cycle (minus the immobility/remote assistance penalty) i.e. if your PVE tengu gets jumped -salvager, -cap recharger, -ab, -cap power relay, +neut, +scram, +mwd, +damage or your in your scanning T3 and see a potential target, -probes, -2x scanning rigs, -nano, +gun/neut, +point, +web, +tank/damage or in a PVP situation get scrammed and -mwd, etc. etc. and swap to +nos, +web, +ab, +overdrive :D
Picture this scenario: Youre in a small to medium sized fleet of say 20 legions and 10 guardians and you get jumped by a battleship fleet of 40 ships, they have little to no RR support so you think you can take them, but they begin to put out far more DPS than your 10 guardians can keep up with. Luckily for you, your fleet was prepared for this and half of your legions are carrying RR subsystems with them. They refit mid combat and supplement your failing guardian force.
Your enemy, seeing that you are now tanking their damage calls in an archon which drops into triage and begins RRing the battleships. Again your fleet adapts and 4-5 of your remaining DPS ships switch to curse mode and begin cap draining the triage archon. Once it is cap dry 3 of them switch back to DPS mode and focus it down with relative ease then proceed to destroy the remaining battleship fleet.
Yes, T2 ships in those specific roles would be better, but your fleet doesnt know ahead of time what exactly it is going to be facing, so that point is moot; yes a zealot may do more DPS, and a guardian may rep more, and a curse may cap drain more, but the legion is the only one that can do all of those things on the fly as the fleet needs. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
612
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Posted - 2015.01.28 05:34:20 -
[34] - Quote
4Rum Alt wrote:I for one don't think T3's are OP. Many Eve players fail to miss the point of what exactly a T3 cruiser is. A T3 ship is a cruiser fused with ancient and advanced sleeper technology. You have to think about what makes a sleeper ship a sleeper ship. They are much tougher ships for their ship classes and do much more dps for their ship class.
A T3 was meant to be a jack of all trades but master at none they were meant to be able to do any role a T2 could do just not as good as the T2 Except when it came to over heating where the T3 could preform nearly at the leave of t2.
The were not meant to always use the same subs have bs tank and bs dps with the sig and speed of a cruiser
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14686
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Posted - 2015.01.28 05:56:23 -
[35] - Quote
No matter what happens T3 are in for a savage nerf and I welcome that day.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
206
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Posted - 2015.01.28 07:21:40 -
[36] - Quote
Fozzie mentioned something at csm summit that they want to remove rigs or make the rigs swappable. I'm for second option. He also metioned somewhere else that they want T3 to stay strategic (modules), and D3 tactical (modes). Personaly i think they will be nerfed to T2 cruisers level (maybe with overheat). The same performance as T2 but higher price.
"...genre is a definition, the definition in itself must have boundaries, the boundaries act as barriers, and the barriers are like walls, like the walls of a prisonn++..."
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Lugh Crow-Slave
612
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Posted - 2015.01.28 07:23:52 -
[37] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:No matter what happens T3 are in for a savage nerf and I welcome that day.
just in there current form with any luck those unused subs will get a buff
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Aajal Truth
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.01.28 08:08:16 -
[38] - Quote
If they are nerfed in anyway then the sp loss needs to go. People are not going to lose sp for a ship that is lousy. That in turn will mean WH space will be less profitable as most of the WH income is made from T3 production. Whether gas harvesting or plexing. Less profit in WH space equals less pilots which equals less pew. Also the lack of SP loss will likely increase use and therefore drive up the price. Let's all be honest, we love large ISK killmails.
I know people feel feel like ISK isn't a big balancing factor in PvP ship selection but IMO that just isn't true. Cheap people are cheap people. In game and out. If it wasn't so we would see a lot more Garmurs, Orthrus's and Barghests on the field. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
612
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Posted - 2015.01.28 08:18:39 -
[39] - Quote
Aajal Truth wrote:If they are nerfed in anyway then the sp loss needs to go. People are not going to lose sp for a ship that is lousy. That in turn will mean WH space will be less profitable as most of the WH income is made from T3 production. Whether gas harvesting or plexing. Less profit in WH space equals less pilots which equals less pew. Also the lack of SP loss will likely increase use and therefore drive up the price. Let's all be honest, we love large ISK killmails.
I know people feel feel like ISK isn't a big balancing factor in PvP ship selection but IMO that just isn't true. Cheap people are cheap people. In game and out. If it wasn't so we would see a lot more Garmurs, Orthrus's and Barghests on the field.
no the sp loss needs to stay they aren't nurffing T3s into the ground just some of the over powered subs and the new D3s take that same material to build and i'm sure they will become much more common once people figure them out
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
603
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Posted - 2015.01.28 09:41:41 -
[40] - Quote
Being able to refit modules/subs would only require a "Mobile Structure Bay" that would hold a Mobile Depot.
In reality, T3's need their subsystems (and combination there of) to be extremely and carefully redesigned to: A: be balanced at the level of power desired B: be useful in any and all combinations at a desired/intended role C: Allow the switching or remove rig slots
I would first look at the role for each subsystem/sub combination and figure out what they all should do.
Then I would address how powerful each rig should be
Then look at whether rigs are required or not.
A lot of the subs just need a tweak. Some are overpowered and some plane right useless or extremely niche. The racial specific subs should be available to all (eg Gravitational Capacitor would be nice on Loki/Legion)
Should T3's be at a power level between T1 and T2? Only if someone fits them for multi role. When you combine subs for a super specialized role you should get better than T2 out of it.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
613
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:00:18 -
[41] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Being able to refit modules/subs would only require a "Mobile Structure Bay" that would hold a Mobile Depot.
In reality, T3's need their subsystems (and combination there of) to be extremely and carefully redesigned to: A: be balanced at the level of power desired B: be useful in any and all combinations at a desired/intended role C: Allow the switching or remove rig slots
I would first look at the role for each subsystem/sub combination and figure out what they all should do.
Then I would address how powerful each rig should be
Then look at whether rigs are required or not.
A lot of the subs just need a tweak. Some are overpowered and some plane right useless or extremely niche. The racial specific subs should be available to all (eg Gravitational Capacitor would be nice on Loki/Legion)
Some of the rigs just don't make sense. I mean an Augmented Cap reservoir does not give you a larger cap pool. A cap regeneration matrix does though ??!! Daft stuff like that are just stupid things.
Should T3's be at a power level between T1 and T2? Only if someone fits them for multi role. When you combine subs for a super specialized role you should get better than T2 out of it.
there are 120 sub combinations per race(more if you now mix and match racial subs) so testing every combination is not the best way to go about it
racial subs should stay racial other wise there is little factor in choosing a base hull it becomes harder to balance and one hull will come out on top where the others see little use
a fully dedicated t3 being better than t2 is the situation we have now and its not a good one you. if i can make a T3 do a niche job better than the T2 that is meant to do it then why do i ever use the T2.
I still feel T3s should be just above T1 unless they are overheating
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
603
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:07:25 -
[42] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Being able to refit modules/subs would only require a "Mobile Structure Bay" that would hold a Mobile Depot.
In reality, T3's need their subsystems (and combination there of) to be extremely and carefully redesigned to: A: be balanced at the level of power desired B: be useful in any and all combinations at a desired/intended role C: Allow the switching or remove rig slots
I would first look at the role for each subsystem/sub combination and figure out what they all should do.
Then I would address how powerful each rig should be
Then look at whether rigs are required or not.
A lot of the subs just need a tweak. Some are overpowered and some plane right useless or extremely niche. The racial specific subs should be available to all (eg Gravitational Capacitor would be nice on Loki/Legion)
Some of the rigs just don't make sense. I mean an Augmented Cap reservoir does not give you a larger cap pool. A cap regeneration matrix does though ??!! Daft stuff like that are just stupid things.
Should T3's be at a power level between T1 and T2? Only if someone fits them for multi role. When you combine subs for a super specialized role you should get better than T2 out of it. there are 120 sub combinations per race(more if you now mix and match racial subs) so testing every combination is not the best way to go about it racial subs should stay racial other wise there is little factor in choosing a base hull it becomes harder to balance and one hull will come out on top where the others see little use a fully dedicated t3 being better than t2 is the situation we have now and its not a good one you. if i can make a T3 do a niche job better than the T2 that is meant to do it then why do i ever use the T2. I still feel T3s should be just above T1 unless they are overheating
If you don't consider all the combinations then something bad might happen during the balance that would get overlooked. You can't just do jobs by half. Do it properly.
Why use T2 over T3? Skills, risk of SP loss and cost.
A T3 costs about 2-3x more than a T2.
Also the same argument can be made in the opposite direction. If my super specialized T3 design is outclassed by a T2 why would I ever fly a T3. You might as well just delete them from the game then. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2696
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Posted - 2015.01.28 11:49:32 -
[43] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: there are 120 sub combinations per race(more if you now mix and match racial subs) so testing every combination is not the best way to go about it
It's 1024 subsystem combinations per race, most of them are just fail fits from the start due to fitting problems or terrible slot layout, or both.
IMO T3s should be a fully functional ship before any subsystems are added on and the sub systems simply modify the ship rather than define it.
(Very) Rough example:
Proteus 6H 4M 6L (5 Turret Hard points, 0 Launcher Hard points) Armor 2200, Shield 1400, Hull 2400 Power Grid 1000, CPU 350 Drone 50Mbps, 200m3 bay
From here if you added a Drone Synthesis Projector it would modify the hull by adding;
-1 High Slot, -1 Turret Hard point +100% Drone Bandwidth +10% Drone Damage Per Level of Gallente Offensive Subsystems +7.5% Drone HP per level of Gallente Offensive Subsystems
Spugg Galdon wrote: Why use T2 over T3?
Because it is often easier to carry around some extra modules and a few subsystems than another entire ship. Though I don't think T3 should be at the same level as T1 but they should be slightly worse than T2, strong enough to make them desirable but not obsoleting T2 ships. |
Alexis Nightwish
88
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Posted - 2015.01.28 18:38:51 -
[44] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Wait so low SP characters who don't have the ability to fly t2 ships will somehow have all the skills for a t3 and all the skills for the subsystems, and all the subsystem skills trained to a reasonable level, despite the fact that if you have the skills for t3's you are 85% of the way to most of the t2's? Since Cruiser V is the lion's share of the SP needed to fly both T2 and T3, with the other skills being core skills that should be trained by everyone, this argument doesn't hold.
Anhenka wrote:Also the swap between PvE and PvP at safespots is unlikely, because people are far more likely to just have one ship for PvP, and another for PvE, and it still takes less effort to just dock and jump in the other one than swap anything. You don't want to lose your PvP ship and your way of earning more money to buy another PvP ship at the same time after all. Plus lets face it, t3's are extremely medicore for most PvE. I don't have spare ships in every system that I can swap to at a moment's notice, and neither does anyone else. Also, the statement that T3s are mediocre for PvE shows that you haven't used them, or at least seen them used for PvE.
Anhenka wrote:Pre-combat swapping to engage certain gangs is iffy at best, since 99% of the time, the modifications you would choose to do pre-fight is all in the modules, not the subsystems. And we can already do that with depots. Unless you are switching to or from a travel fit to a combat fit, but that's not enough to stimulate hotswapping and t3 use much. This is precisely my argument: the subs are grossly unbalanced with only a few being worth using (and those few are very OP) so everyone flies with those. There's no desire to swap subsystems while in space because why would anyone want to when they're already flying the optimal build for every situation?
Anhenka wrote:And lastly, while t3 frigs, BC, and BS's might eventually come out, changing t3's in such a way that it immediate crashes WH space while hoping and betting that demand for ships that may never come out will be high enough to let WH space recover at that time is an incredibly bad idea. Shift the cost from the subs to the hull. T2s cost just under 200m unfitted. If T3s hulls were around 100m, and the subs around 10m each, the cost of a T3 with some subs for swapping to would have a similar cost.
CCP only approaches a problem in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
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