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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Chalur Dallocort
SergalJerk Test Alliance Please Ignore
2
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Posted - 2015.02.05 21:23:55 -
[271] - Quote
Acel Tokalov wrote:Summary of this thread Minmatar irrelevancy for the foreseeable future confirmed
CCP proves time and time again that they simply do not understand how to properly balance projectile weapons and minmatar ships. |
Meloni HELL
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
28
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Posted - 2015.02.06 23:00:28 -
[272] - Quote
Sadface. Was really excited about this one :( |
James Zimmer
Furtherance.
13
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:59:07 -
[273] - Quote
First off, thanks for the explanation Fozzie. I may still not like this ship, but it does make a little more sense. However, I think there are things you may be missing. The thing that makes the Confessor such an interesting ship is the fact that you can press a button, and it does different things that are all useful. With the Svipul, you have a button for each class of weapon, and then a go really fast button (which is generally useful for any ship).
The defensive mode will rarely be used with arty, because it will significantly decrease your firepower against all but the largest ships. Arty has terrible tracking, and switching from sharpshooter mode to defense mode gets rid of the tracking bonus. Hurting your tracking even more by zooming around with an MWD is just silly. In that sense, it is not similar to the Talwar at all, which can apply damage regardless of how it's flown. An arty Svipul will basically be a better arty Wolf. It will certainly be used, but it adds nothing new to the game. Giving sharpshooter mode the MWD bonus, a large optimal and falloff bonus and swapping the tracking bonus to defense mode would make both of these modes useful for an arty Svipul, just depending on the range of the engagement. However, something would have to be done to prevent these from becoming OP; maybe a resist penalty in sharpshooter mode.
The sharpshooter mode will rarely, if ever, be used with an autocannon Svipul. If you're close enough to use your small autocannons, you're scrammed and webbed, or at least have to be prepared for that possibility. No one is going to speed tank your small autocannons after you scram and maybe web them too, so the tracking bonus of sharpshooter mode is pointless. I really can't fathom why you would ever use that mode for an autocannon Svipul. The defensive mode may be too perfect for a dual prop-mod tackle Svipul. The MWD sig bonus coupled with huge resists bonuses will allow you to get to range and survive lot better than any other tackler. An autocannon Svipul is basically a dramatically better Jaguar. It appears to me that it will easily be the best tackler in the game, and severely OP in that role. If we changed it in the way I mentioned before, you would basically get an interceptor-like role with sharpshooter mode, where you could orbit beyond scram/web range and still apply damage, or have an assault frigate-like mode in the defensive mode and orbit within scram/web range with enough tank to survive. Because the MWD sig bonus wouldn't be be piled on top of another damage reduction bonus, the ship would be more balanced and a bit less OP. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Scope Gallente Federation
263
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Posted - 2015.02.10 08:53:01 -
[274] - Quote
The enitre lineup is broken and ********, the confessor now and probably the others later on, they are way to good for their price, the fact that a unlinked t3d can kill all frigates, all dessies, most t1 cruisers, some t2 cruisers, some bcs is straight up broken. Either nerf the crap out of them or admit your mistake and delete them from the game.
Also acs need more then the option to not have to use barrage, they are straight up the worst weapons all around. |
Soltys
15
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Posted - 2015.02.11 20:15:20 -
[275] - Quote
Paddy Finn wrote:There is a problem when I can compare the Svipul to the Confessor by worthwhile bonuses and the Svipul comes up short. With the Confessor I can have any arrangement of MWD, AB, pulses and beams on the Confessor and all the bonuses are effective. The Armor and Sig bonus in defensive are effective no matter if I choose AB or MWD. The Prop mode is effective with AB or MWD. The Sharpshooter is effective with pulses or beams no matter what I choose. 6 solid bonuses effective with whatever common sense Confessor fit I can come up with.
On the Svipul if I pick an MWD AC Svipul, 1 of the 6 bonuses are already shot with the MWD sig bonus being useless on a brawler. If you're not going to give a falloff bonus to ACs to stay out of scram range then an MWD sig bonus is wasted if you choose to put on an MWD. If you choose to put an AB on the ship you have written off using the bonus, or if you dual prop you have sacrificed a mid to utilize the bonus. I know you don't believe that this ship will be shoehorned into an Arty only fit, but it is the only fit that would leverage all its bonuses, unlike the confessor where you have choice. Where you talk about you want something to make the ships bonuses different than the Confessor, don't hamstring the ship for the sake of making it distinct.
Not much to add. +1
To balance maybe they will swap optimal for falloff bonus on confessor ? After all, why not ? Not like bonuses have to make sense after all (sarcasm beacon). |
Red Thought
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
6
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Posted - 2015.02.12 01:54:12 -
[276] - Quote
CCP....... I just wrote a forum post up on how good you guys were doing..... Now you destroy my hopes for my most anticipated change in 5 years. I am very sad ccp. I just tried out this ship on the test server and it seems mediocre at best. Slower than Sabre without propulsion mode. Equal tank to and less tank than the sabre depending on if you have defensive mode selected or not. and with sniper mode, you get a tracking bonus..... I don't recall every having tracking issues with small projectile. My weapons do a bit more damage but get no fall off bonus. Even with artillery equipped i get a miniscule optimal, 10km atm with level 2 due to the new mirror on the test server. On top of all of this it gets no bubble.... What is the point of this ship? Were you guys to scared of it being to op or what? |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
153
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Posted - 2015.02.12 04:58:14 -
[277] - Quote
haha the tears oh the tears..
Im just sitting back laughing my behind off at fozzie's reasoning..
but wait till he gets to the tactical gallente destroyer..
then and only then I shall join in on creating tears..
...........................and that is all |
NicoRobin D
Moeri Bee Hive
0
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Posted - 2015.02.12 09:18:50 -
[278] - Quote
why it's so ugly... :(( |
Brigadir Black
Pod Goo Extraction Agency Bad Intention
0
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Posted - 2015.02.12 10:20:39 -
[279] - Quote
To be honest I'm gonna trust CCP with this one. There was a debate on how useful the confessor was/wasn't going to be, then it came out, and its stupidly good.......
So I'm gonna trust that they know how important this is to everyone and that it will add something new to the game also, (I have ideas on a few fits myself)
Either that or they are just trolling us and on the 16th they are gonna say GOT YA in which case I might actually pee myself laughing.
Also kudos to those that posted actual constructive feedback rather than just 'IT'S OP' or 'NO CCP WHY' :) |
Relic124
No Vacancies
3
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Posted - 2015.02.12 10:54:08 -
[280] - Quote
I understand the points you made, Fozzie, about a ship's strength not being directly tied to how many of its bonuses it easily makes use of. I also personally see the method behind the madness in making it not the easiest ship to fit properly, similar to its cousin, the Confessor. All good stuff.
With that in mind, I don't personally think it'd be a bad idea to simply swap the optimal range and tracking bonuses; tracking would get baked into the hull's per-level bonuses, and optimal would only come with Sniper mode. This would do a good job of allowing mid-range artillery fits to actually get something done when using the various close-range ammo types (Fusion, etc) while also allowing AC brawl fits to make use of classic dual-prop setups. This would also not make the ship an end-all in terms of brawling performance - without a falloff bonus it can still be countered effectively by controlling range. Of course, the actual values of the two bonuses would have to be normalized a bit, but in the end I think it would result in a more fun to fly - while still balanced - ship. |
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Deerin
Murientor Tribe
283
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Posted - 2015.02.13 08:04:24 -
[281] - Quote
I would like to point at ambit rigs as part of projectile balance:
Optimal bonus is a more powerful bonus than falloff. Even on Tracking enhanchers their bonuses are on a 1:2 ratio.
When it comes to rigs however there is a disparity.
A T1 Locus Rig gives +15% optimal(better than a TE2) while a T2 Locus Rig gives +20% falloff(double the amount of TE2) A T1 Ambit Rig gives +15% falloff(worse than a TE2) while a T2 Ambit Rig gives +20% falloff (same amount asTE2)
Increasing t1 ambit rigs to 20% and t2's to 25% would help in projectile rebalancing. |
Tara'Quoya Rax
Atlantis Asteria
5
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Posted - 2015.02.13 21:09:27 -
[282] - Quote
It would still require a falloff ship bonus to actually make it worthwhile committing those rig slots. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1004
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Posted - 2015.02.14 09:22:30 -
[283] - Quote
Deerin wrote:I would like to point at ambit rigs as part of projectile balance:
Optimal bonus is a more powerful bonus than falloff. Even on Tracking enhanchers their bonuses are on a 1:2 ratio.
When it comes to rigs however there is a disparity.
A T1 Locus Rig gives +15% optimal(better than a TE2) while a T2 Locus Rig gives +20% falloff(double the amount of TE2) A T1 Ambit Rig gives +15% falloff(worse than a TE2) while a T2 Ambit Rig gives +20% falloff (same amount asTE2)
Increasing t1 ambit rigs to 20% and t2's to 25% would help in projectile rebalancing.
rigs are pretty much due for their own expansion. they've messed up the game enormously and had barely any changes. |
Baki Yuku
Boob Heads Black Legion.
30
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Posted - 2015.02.14 21:42:05 -
[284] - Quote
Came expecting some real balancing to address the medium rail imbalance left disappointed medium arty is still garbage because not enough falloff.. medium beams still garbage because way to much PG need.. good balance good start for the new year if thats what we can expect for sov remap why even bother? |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
188
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Posted - 2015.02.18 11:29:29 -
[285] - Quote
I just don't understand the logic of this optimal bonus. Don't the modules themselves already have tradeoffs?
If an optimal bonus is needed to give player choices, doesn't that imply that the weapon systems are out of balance? Why a weird bonus instead of a module tweak? |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
154
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Posted - 2015.02.18 18:29:39 -
[286] - Quote
An incredible lack of work done with this ship.. The Svipul
Simple logic played key here.. no new bpo equipment piece , no new salvage requirement. the exact same for the confessor.. im willing to bet the exact same for the caldari and gallente versions when they come out as well.
so basically you spent how much time into creating t3 destroyers??
not impressed at all.
you guys really hate industry.. you really do.
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
12234
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Posted - 2015.02.19 11:40:05 -
[287] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:An incredible lack of work done with this ship.. The Svipul
Simple logic played key here.. no new bpo equipment piece , no new salvage requirement. the exact same for the confessor.. im willing to bet the exact same for the caldari and gallente versions when they come out as well.
so basically you spent how much time into creating t3 destroyers??
not impressed at all.
you guys really hate industry.. you really do.
This is the way all T3 ships have always worked. Unlike T2, the components that go into them aren't racial.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Edward Olmops
DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax
246
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Posted - 2015.02.19 12:08:09 -
[288] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:An incredible lack of work done with this ship.. The Svipul
Simple logic played key here.. no new bpo equipment piece , no new salvage requirement. the exact same for the confessor.. im willing to bet the exact same for the caldari and gallente versions when they come out as well.
so basically you spent how much time into creating t3 destroyers??
not impressed at all.
you guys really hate industry.. you really do.
This is the way all T3 ships have always worked. Unlike T2, the components that go into them aren't racial.
But it is obviously SO UNFAIR that few people have earned HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF ISK when the Confessor was introduced. And now we could not just copy that profit because... well... CCP was lazy and it was so easy to build the Svipuls that basically everyone copied it!!!
(note: this is the first item I am aware of that actually showed a price rebound that strong on day one after all the hysterical producers were done pushing their goods into the market)
Milla Goodpussy wrote: so basically you spent how much time into creating t3 destroyers??
I bet the main time sink in creating new items is NOT the bill of materials. ;-) |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1611
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Posted - 2015.02.19 12:17:58 -
[289] - Quote
I believe the purpose of new ships is to offer interesting gameplay possibilities, not to make rich people richer.
Signature Tanking - Best Tanking
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
728
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Posted - 2015.02.19 12:46:05 -
[290] - Quote
Altrue wrote:I believe the purpose of new ships is to offer interesting gameplay possibilities, not to make rich people richer So none of those interesting possibilities are allowed to add to EVE's seriously lacking industry gameplay? |
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1614
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Posted - 2015.02.19 13:35:07 -
[291] - Quote
Adding new blueprints to craft isn't enriching the industry gameplay. EVE does not rely on devs adding something new on a regular basis to be fun. EVE releases are about giving the tools to player to create their own content.
Adding new blueprints and components for every racial T3 destroyer would only provide a temporary and debatable interest to industrialists. That's not what I call enriching the gameplay.
Signature Tanking - Best Tanking
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
728
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Posted - 2015.02.19 13:57:50 -
[292] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Adding new blueprints to craft isn't enriching the industry gameplay. Neither is anything else, sadly.
Altrue wrote:EVE does not rely on devs adding something new on a regular basis to be fun. That's fortunate.
Altrue wrote:EVE releases are about giving the tools to player to create their own content. And I'm waiting for CCP to give the tools to the industry player to create their own content, as a lot of the tools we used to have pre-Crius were removed or rendered inoperable. I would at least like to see replacements, although I'd much rather see the industry gameplay move forward rather than just returning back to where it was a year ago.
Altrue wrote:Adding new blueprints and components for every racial T3 destroyer would only provide a temporary and debatable interest to industrialists. That's not what I call enriching the gameplay. Me neither. But when you compare the enrichment of industrial gameplay that came with the introduction of T3 cruisers to the lack of industrial gameplay that came with the introduction of T3 destroyers, it does look like another missed opportunity.
Now, I'm not saying T3 destroyers needed to be the saviour of industry, but something has to be and I'd rather like it arrive sooner rather than later.
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Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
154
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Posted - 2015.02.19 15:51:13 -
[293] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Adding new blueprints to craft isn't enriching the industry gameplay. EVE does not rely on devs adding something new on a regular basis to be fun. EVE releases are about giving the tools to player to create their own content.
Adding new blueprints and components for every racial T3 destroyer would only provide a temporary and debatable interest to industrialists. That's not what I call enriching the gameplay.
rofl you brave folks make me laugh with your tunnel vision, just like the fozz nerf bear up there. if they provide more bpo's, items to build that provides us content, if they allowed more skills needing to be trained it separates us from the newbies and provides a newbie with a goal.. industry stinks right now cause of what greyscale did to it, and I doubt fozzie will do anything about it cause its pretty much obvious he hates industry.. they haven't even came up with what to do about replacing teams.. so now invention is broken, job cost is broken, and the entry level - mid point of industry training is broken.
go back to pew pew and stop trying to understand industrials cause that's all you shoot at.. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
154
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Posted - 2015.02.19 15:57:30 -
[294] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:An incredible lack of work done with this ship.. The Svipul
Simple logic played key here.. no new bpo equipment piece , no new salvage requirement. the exact same for the confessor.. im willing to bet the exact same for the caldari and gallente versions when they come out as well.
so basically you spent how much time into creating t3 destroyers??
not impressed at all.
you guys really hate industry.. you really do.
This is the way all T3 ships have always worked. Unlike T2, the components that go into them aren't racial.
T2 production is broken right now dude, so.. here's your logic.. make T3 production easy ( as referenced in the agenda blog to increase its production) meanwhile make T2 production expensive and less profitable. btw moon goo isn't cheap, its a challenge, T3 no moon goo needed!.. oh and you don't need a command ship to boost off-grid as well, yep perfect thinking you have some tunnel vision going on there dude.
I was fortunate to make a nice profit from building the svipul on day one, but yet I also was online and watching as everyone's jobs completed and began posting in jita and was saddened on how at ease it was.. you made it to where its a mad dash for a couple hours instead of days, weeks, months to accomplish.. guess you guys are hurting in retaining new bros after all.
hmph! |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
730
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Posted - 2015.02.19 16:09:06 -
[295] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:go back to pew pew and stop trying to understand industrials It's not like it's only possible to understand one part of the game.
I'm a real honest to goodness boat violencing pew pew PvPer first and foremost. But, like anyone who spends a long time flying without an SRP saftey net, you have to find a way to pay for your exotic dancer supply.
After 10 years playing a game, it appears I've had time to become terrible at everything it has to offer. So for me, new content or the tools to create it are very important.
I'll really enjoy flying the Svipul and all the other T3 destroyers, but I'd have liked to have really enjoyed building them too. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
154
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Posted - 2015.02.19 16:32:43 -
[296] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:go back to pew pew and stop trying to understand industrials It's not like it's only possible to understand one part of the game. I'm a real honest to goodness boat violencing pew pew PvPer first and foremost. But, like anyone who spends a long time flying without an SRP saftey net, you have to find a way to pay for your exotic dancer supply. After 10 years playing a game, it appears I've had time to become terrible at everything it has to offer. So for me, new content or the tools to create it are very important. I'll really enjoy flying the Svipul and all the other T3 destroyers, but I'd have liked to have really enjoyed building them too.
as it stands right now.. fozzie has allowed the cycle to continue..
welp at fan fest.. here's the Caldari T3 destroyer coming in blah blah blah Fozzie/Rises expected release date ( they give terrible smiles at the camera)..
then I go.. welp its time to build another 250 self-assemblies to be ready for it, since that's the same thing i'll need.. plus I now have thousands in salvage parts, reaction gas so im ready for that.. no surprises around the corner at all cause he refuses to put more psssssssssssth in it..
it comes out.. I wait 51 mins for the invention..(expensive decryptor used for 100% success)..oh this is very difficult says yoda out comes my bpc.. and it has that new car ship scent with it. then I plug in how many I want to make.. wow this is sooooooo diffifult and challenging that even a 1 finger robot could do.
but I better build 1 and rush it to jita on day one to make a serious profit cause those "must haves" will be there and I can profit from it..
then the next day hits.. and welp im waiting for my other batches to finish and wow.. such a drop in price :(
all the new content (materials gathering + invention) is over within 1 hour time.. 19 hrs on waiting for a ship to cook, couple days waiting for more.. anyone still awake out there? yeah.. that's industry for ya |
Circumstantial Evidence
168
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:16:38 -
[297] - Quote
Congrats Milla, you have won EVE! And wrote a nice production outline, which I don't have the energy to set up. But those who do it well, are extracting maximum value from the system as it was designed. Making it more complicated, such as requiring new types of parts requiring new resources, say, from the new WH systems you can't put POS's in - would only slow things down for a short time. And then you'd probably complain that you only had a few days of high profits, instead of a few hours.
This gets to the general problem all games have: there's no content the developers can spend weeks or months creating, that players can't consume in a much shorter amount of time.
I think the next big things for Industry will be wreck-able or destructible outposts, and the player-built stargates, which I imagine will require resources from every region, 5 or 10 times the stuff needed to build an outpost.
In order for the effort and costs to scale properly, I think the T3 destroyers had to be a simpler process than T3 cruisers. If there's ever a T3 battleship, we should expect some new complications :) |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
160
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Posted - 2015.02.20 18:03:03 -
[298] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:Congrats Milla, you have won EVE! And wrote a nice production outline, which I don't have the energy to set up. But those who do it well, are extracting maximum value from the system as it was designed. Making it more complicated, such as requiring new types of parts requiring new resources, say, from the new WH systems you can't put POS's in - would only slow things down for a short time. And then you'd probably complain that you only had a few days of high profits, instead of a few hours.
This gets to the general problem all games have: there's no content the developers can spend weeks or months creating, that players can't consume in a much shorter amount of time.
I think the next big things for Industry will be wreck-able or destructible outposts, and the player-built stargates, which I imagine will require resources from every region, 5 or 10 times the stuff needed to build an outpost.
In order for the effort and costs to scale properly, I think the T3 destroyers had to be a simpler process than T3 cruisers. If there's ever a T3 battleship, we should expect some new complications :)
lol.. you're comparing building an outpost to building a t3 destroyer? really? now im sure folks would rage about them saying "welp we need to move outpost construction down to industrial construction 1 cause errybody wants to build an outpost egg"
I win at eve when I decide to give a different game my money, that's how I win.. so be it.
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Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
86
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Posted - 2015.02.22 10:47:12 -
[299] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:as it stands right now.. fozzie has allowed the cycle to continue..
welp at fan fest.. here's the Caldari T3 destroyer coming in blah blah blah Fozzie/Rises expected release date ( they give terrible smiles at the camera)..
then I go.. welp its time to build another 250 self-assemblies to be ready for it, since that's the same thing i'll need.. plus I now have thousands in salvage parts, reaction gas so im ready for that.. no surprises around the corner at all cause he refuses to put more psssssssssssth in it..
it comes out.. I wait 51 mins for the invention..(expensive decryptor used for 100% success)..oh this is very difficult says yoda out comes my bpc.. and it has that new car ship scent with it. then I plug in how many I want to make.. wow this is sooooooo diffifult and challenging that even a 1 finger robot could do.
but I better build 1 and rush it to jita on day one to make a serious profit cause those "must haves" will be there and I can profit from it..
then the next day hits.. and welp im waiting for my other batches to finish and wow.. such a drop in price :(
all the new content (materials gathering + invention) is over within 1 hour time.. 19 hrs on waiting for a ship to cook, couple days waiting for more.. anyone still awake out there? yeah.. that's industry for ya That's a decent amount of crying about not making as much of a profit as you would like. Is someone forcing you to build these or was that just your sense of entitlement talking? |
Sgt Ocker
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
332
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Posted - 2015.02.22 22:58:42 -
[300] - Quote
Lucas Quaan wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:as it stands right now.. fozzie has allowed the cycle to continue..
welp at fan fest.. here's the Caldari T3 destroyer coming in blah blah blah Fozzie/Rises expected release date ( they give terrible smiles at the camera)..
then I go.. welp its time to build another 250 self-assemblies to be ready for it, since that's the same thing i'll need.. plus I now have thousands in salvage parts, reaction gas so im ready for that.. no surprises around the corner at all cause he refuses to put more psssssssssssth in it..
it comes out.. I wait 51 mins for the invention..(expensive decryptor used for 100% success)..oh this is very difficult says yoda out comes my bpc.. and it has that new car ship scent with it. then I plug in how many I want to make.. wow this is sooooooo diffifult and challenging that even a 1 finger robot could do.
but I better build 1 and rush it to jita on day one to make a serious profit cause those "must haves" will be there and I can profit from it..
then the next day hits.. and welp im waiting for my other batches to finish and wow.. such a drop in price :(
all the new content (materials gathering + invention) is over within 1 hour time.. 19 hrs on waiting for a ship to cook, couple days waiting for more.. anyone still awake out there? yeah.. that's industry for ya That's a decent amount of crying about not making as much of a profit as you would like. Is someone forcing you to build these or was that just your sense of entitlement talking? Lucas, I think you missed the intent of the post or maybe it is me. To me it seems to be saying, these "new" builds are bringing nothing new to industry. 4 new ships for 4 different factions, all use the same materials to build what are supposed to be faction specific ships.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
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