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Typhoid Mary
Alzhara Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:17:02 -
[1] - Quote
I am new to the game (obviously) and currently flying a Corax. Everything is going fine, I am enjoying the game and subscribed within 2 hours of starting my trial.
Everything has been going great, and with my Corax I am just able to complete level 2 combat missions. I sometimes have to warp out and take out targets with a guerrilla tactics (basically hit and run), but overall it is doable. Obviously this takes time...
I was browsing ISIS ingame when I noticed something: Caracal has gives bonuses to light missiles as well as Heavy Missiles & Heavy Assault Missiles. Now I have taken note of the advice that flying a bigger ship before you are ready for it is a very big mistake to make.
So I put the following question to the more experienced community:
Given exact equal skill points, Which would do better in level 2 missions? Caracal or Corax?
I realize that skill points plays a huge role in the question, so I am posting my skills on EVEBoard for those who might want to have a look. Typhoid Mary, Password: eve
tl;dr
With the skills that I have, would a Caracal or Corax be better for me to complete level 2's with. |
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
228
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:25:33 -
[2] - Quote
from a quick glance:
You have so few support skills done yet that I would be surprised if you didn't see immediate gains from spending a day training caldari cruiser to 3 and using light missiles in your L2 missions. More tank if anything.
If I was you, I would ask one basic question: "How early do I want to be PvP capable?" if it is soon, flesh out your support skills while flying the corax. The same skills are needed for the caracal anyways so nothing lost.
If it is 'someday, but first I want x iso', then go ahead and get into a caracal before putting some time into the support skills.
Generally you will never go wrong flying a decent cruiser. Flying good destroyers are more for FW type pvp, though they both require some time put into the basic core skills and missile support stuff. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
890
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:32:27 -
[3] - Quote
you'll remove the need to warp out of level 2 missions with the caracal, problem is you'll either have to fit rapid lights and suffer their really long reload or just regular lights and that will end up meaning you do less damage than your corax.
you will have to go by trial and error to see which situation is more efficient:
1. warp out sometimes with corax 2. never warp out but less damage with caracal |
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2100
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:39:40 -
[4] - Quote
The Caracal and Corax are very different beasts. Short comparison:
Offensive capabilities: Corax is a Destroyer class ship. Destroyers in general are "glass cannons" that do a lot of damage best applied to frigates. In the Corax's case, this comes in the shape of light missile bonuses, including an explosion velocity bonus (you can hit fast-moving stuff better). As far as damage, it has 7 launchers with an up to 25% bonus to damage, meaning it tops out at 8.75 launchers. These are frigate-sized light missiles, which don't do a lot of damage relative to any other missiles, but they have respectable range (further bonused by the Corax) and hit almost anything well.
The Caracal is an attack cruiser. Attack cruisers are meant to be fast and serve as front-loaded damage ships. Because it sports missiles with a range bonus, the Caracal also has respectable range. Its damage application is different, though: 5 launcher hardpoints, with an up to 25% bonus to rate of fire. The ROF bonus actually works out to a 33% bonus to damage, which means it has 6.65 launchers worth of damage.
What does this mean? If you loaded a Caracal with the same light missile launchers, ballistic control systems, etc as a Corax, it would do about 3/4 the damage the Corax does. That's a bit sad. That is also the reason fitting light missiles on a Caracal is a bad idea.
What is a good idea? Fitting the Caracal with cruiser sized weapons:
- Heavy assault missiles (or HAMs) - these are the bigger equivalent of rockets. They have better range and damage than rockets, but might have trouble hitting some small frigate targets. Using a stasis webifier or target painter with these is recommended.
- Heavy missiles (or HMs) - these are the bigger brother of light missiles. They have very long range (especially on the Caracal), but poorer damage than HAMs, and they have significant difficulty hitting frigate-sized targets and some small cruiser sized targets. Target painters are pretty much a necessity unless you're sure you're only shooting big targets.
- Rapid light missiles (or RLMLs) - this is a cruiser-sized launcher that fires light missiles at a super-fast rate. It does significant damage (almost HAM-level), but since it's light missiles, it has better range and hits smaller targets better. The downside: it only has 20 shots, and takes 35 seconds to reload. This makes it optimal for hit and run PvP, not PvE. Again: I do not recomment RLMLs for PvE.
If you fit the Caracal with any of the above, you will end up doing more damage except against small/light stuff (assuming you have similar skills for it and the Caracal).
Defensive capabilities: As mentioned before, the Corax is a glass cannon. Especially fitted with light missiles (which are rather demanding on CPU/PG), it just doesn't have adequate slots/fittings to be tanky. It needs to either not get shot, or stay at long enough range that damage can't reach it well.
The Caracal isn't a shining example of resilience either. Attack cruisers are light in tank relative to other cruisers. Even so, as a cruiser, the Caracal can sport a much more robust tank than the Corax can. In addition, it can also smack down high-damage enemies (in PvE) before they can apply too much hurt, and it can fire at longer ranges than Corax usually can (if it uses HMs).
Additionally, the Caracal is significantly faster than the Corax.
So what should you do? Right now, since you don't have Caldari Cruiser trained, nor do you have either HAMs or HMs trained, I would advise sticking with the Corax. In the longer term, a Caracal will be able to outclass a Corax in level 2 missions, to the point where the Caracal can effortlessly blitz them. Work with what you've got, then move out when you have the skills and ISK to handle it.
As a rule of thumb, level 1 missions are usually intended for frigates/destroyers. Level 2 missions are intended for cruisers. Level 3 missions are for battlecruisers. Level 4 missions are for battleships. You can sometimes run missions one level "up" from your ship with some effort (e.g. battlecruiser running Level 4), but you're almost always better using the appropriate ship class for them.
Welcome to Eve and good luck!
ISD LackOfFaith
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
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Simca Develon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
53
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:54:25 -
[5] - Quote
Caracal will have an easier time with things, but the Corax can work on most of the missions I believe.
Skill wise you look like you're on the right track. I'd recommend getting your missle support skills up to at least 3 then concentrating on getting ready for a Drake with heavy missles. You have a good start though so just keep going at it.
Edit: Wow people really beat me to that while I was trying to type this little bit up at work lol.
Je suis le commencement de votre fin.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8594
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:55:49 -
[6] - Quote
I would shield and missile support skills. these will benefit both ships.
Though you will have an easier time in a cruiser at this point. this is one of the reasons we stress the whole "bigger=/=better" mantra to new players they often get the mistaken impression that because shipping up works for lower level missions as is the case here,
That it will work in other areas of the game.
For now, yeah shipping up would be fine, just don't try to PVP in it yet (well you can but be prepared for it to explode). But you should look into tha skills under the "engineering" category as these will effect everything you fly. look at missile and shield also, train everything to 3 unless it's a prerequisite for something else you need
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Typhoid Mary
Alzhara Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:56:09 -
[7] - Quote
Thank you for the awesome and quick responses!
I think deep down I knew what you guys were saying, but I think I maybe just got a little impatient, and thought I found a potential loophole! hehe
I think I will stick to the Corax until I get my level 3 certificates in the support skills, and I will then switch over to the cruiser.
P.S. I am using the ingame certificate system to guide me in learning skills, and this is what I am going to learn to fly cruisers properly (I am training them all to mastery level 3):
Shield Reinforcement Shield Tanking Core Spaceship Operation Core Weapon Fitting Medium Missiles Navigation Navigation Support Caldari Target Management Armor Reinforcement Medium Drones
While I have everyone's attention I thought I would ask another quick question. Looking at ISIS I have sort of decided on the following ship progression: Corax --> Caracal --> Drake --> Raven --> And then something better looking that also happens to do a kickass job (suggestions?) |
Simca Develon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
53
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:59:18 -
[8] - Quote
Typhoid Mary wrote:
P.S. I am using the ingame certificate system to guide me in learning skills, and this is what I am going to learn to fly cruisers properly (I am training them all to mastery level 3):
That's a good way to go about it. The certs are a good way to get a base level of competency...at least skill competency...you'll notice that except for some of the bigger weapon/drone types they're almost all the same across the ship types.
Je suis le commencement de votre fin.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8594
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:02:33 -
[9] - Quote
Sounds good, personally I find light drones to have more utility as anything you're going to sic medium sized ones on you can kill faster with your guns and anything smaller will be easier for lights to kill.
You have the right idea though, get the support skills now and never have to worry about them again.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Typhoid Mary
Alzhara Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:05:43 -
[10] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Sounds good, personally I find light drones to have more utility as anything you're going to sic medium sized ones on you can kill faster with your guns and anything smaller will be easier for lights to kill.
You have the right idea though, get the support skills now and never have to worry about them again.
Edit: Love the name btw.
I chose to focus on the Medium Drone certificate because it included the same skills I would need for the Light Drone certificate without adding too much extra training time. I figured it would give me options and not limit me to light drones only.
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Typhoid Mary
Alzhara Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:08:32 -
[11] - Quote
Just an update: I changed my skill q to get my certificate in light missiles faster. I reckon that if I kill everything faster, I wouldnt need to warp out so much! |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4544
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:16:14 -
[12] - Quote
Corax is very fragile compared to a Caracal, or even other destroyers.
I tried to run missions in a Corax, and found even a Kestrel to be more durable. |
Typhoid Mary
Alzhara Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:19:59 -
[13] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Corax is very fragile compared to a Caracal, or even other destroyers.
I tried to run missions in a Corax, and found even a Kestrel to be more durable.
I am glad to hear that it is not entirely my pilot error! |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8597
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:23:03 -
[14] - Quote
Typhoid Mary wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:Corax is very fragile compared to a Caracal, or even other destroyers.
I tried to run missions in a Corax, and found even a Kestrel to be more durable. I am glad to hear that it is not entirely my pilot error! No it's actually not, we probably should have mentioned that it's made of wet tissue paper sooner.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Marsan
263
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Posted - 2015.01.21 21:59:28 -
[15] - Quote
Honestly the Corax doesn't have the tank ability you are looking for. You could go with the cruiser, but your dps is going to be reduced in lvl2s. I'd work on my bring shield skills to 3, then general missile skills to 3, light/heavy skill to 3, and finally cruiser/destroyer skills to 3. Then do the same set of skills to level 4 in the next pass. Then I'd look at bring fitting skills to 3. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Fitting_Guidelines#Train_fitting_skills
Note that there is a lot of overlap here.
Skills for Corax Shield Operation IV Shield Management IV Light Missiles IV Warhead Upgrades IV Missile Launcher Operation IV Target Navigation Prediction IV Caldari Destroyer IV Guided Missile Precision IV
Skills for Caracal Shield Operation IV Shield Management IV Heavy Missiles IV Heavy Assault Missiles IV Warhead Upgrades IV Missile Launcher Operation IV Target Navigation Prediction IV Caldari Cruiser IV Guided Missile Precision IV
Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4545
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Posted - 2015.01.21 22:38:33 -
[16] - Quote
Marsan wrote:Honestly the Corax doesn't have the tank ability you are looking for. You could go with the cruiser, but your dps is going to be reduced in lvl2s. Fit light launchers to a cruiser for level 2's, not heavy.
Personally, I now use an assault ship (blaster harpy) for level 1-3 missions. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8598
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Posted - 2015.01.21 22:45:06 -
[17] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Marsan wrote:Honestly the Corax doesn't have the tank ability you are looking for. You could go with the cruiser, but your dps is going to be reduced in lvl2s. Fit light launchers to a cruiser for level 2's, not heavy. Personally, I now use an assault ship (blaster harpy) for level 1-3 missions. ishkur myself but to each their own i suppose
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
296
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Posted - 2015.01.21 22:48:42 -
[18] - Quote
With how new you are. you could easily train into a cruiser in no time and be of similar skills. You probably want to focus more on support skills for now and train only quick weapon and ship skills until you get the support skills trained up. So by support I mean skills that help you fit and run most mods like engineering, shield and navigation etc..
You can go level 3 cruiser and missile skills for now but I would not go past that until you are at a point of not needing a whole bunch of modules just to get your stuff to fit like CPU and Powergrid mods. Also training capacitor skills can help also unless you are planning on only passive tanking.
The Caracal has room for a couple of light drones or one medium so you will want to train enough drone skills to make use of that.
Make sure you are fitting mission specific or faction specific tank if you are high sec PvEing. Mission reports helps for find that info out. Also if you don't use Eve Fitting Tool that is an extremely helpful app to have.
Range can help with damage and missile boats can be effective kiters. Don't forget however that the best defense is a good offense and you don't have to tank damage from dead NPCs.
Understanding gunnery and tracking mechanics can help you avoid a lot of damage from turret based enemies if you know how to pilot your ship to avoid most of it. Because of those turret mechanics there are times when a frigate can be a better choice than a destroyer. I have not done level 2's since the ship rebalancing but prior to that I can tell you that frigs were much better for level 2's than a destroyer.
Your next step from level 2's is level 3's and the ship for that will be a Battlecruiser which shares all the same medium weapon and support skills so if you train for the cruiser that will be better for the longer haul. Also with Tech 2 and Tech 3 ships you could get into doing level 4's without ever touching the long skill training times of large ships and weapons.
In review though the most important things to understand for not having to warp out is mission specific resists and understanding gunnery mechanics. There are several threads recently here in the new player section of forums I will not duplicate that info here just browse the first few pages for it. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1355
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Posted - 2015.01.21 23:28:20 -
[19] - Quote
Typhoid Mary wrote: Corax --> Caracal --> Drake --> Raven --> And then something better looking that also happens to do a kickass job (suggestions?)
This is probably a sensible progression if your aim is level IV missions.
The followup for faster level IVs would be a choice of Navy Raven / Rattlesnake / Golem
Or you could look at getting one of the incursion favored pirates but you would need to cross train away from missiles and Caldari.
or if you want to get into other stuff then stay with cruisers ....
Corax --> Caracal --> Cerberus --> Tengu |
Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC
3119
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Posted - 2015.01.21 23:45:32 -
[20] - Quote
This is not missile specific, but it's a good skill plan, and the forward is a good explanation of the skill system in EVE. I recommend you follow the plan, just switch out Minmatar ships for Caldari, and focus on missiles instead of the non-missile weapons (do get drones though, those are useful on almost every ship larger than a destroyer) since those are what you seem to be after at the moment. This plan gives you a good general base to work from. Designed to be fairly general so you can try different things at a reasonable level quickly. Followed it myself and recommend it heartily.
http://blog.beyondreality.se/Newbie-skill-plan-2
"I only lose ships when I fly with Azda." - Barry Cuttlefish
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Jolea
Cosmic Sanitarium Northern Associates.
2
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Posted - 2015.01.22 05:00:53 -
[21] - Quote
If I had it to do all over again, I would recommend going caracal-> drake -> gila and stay in gila to figure out what you want to do.
people have run sanctums in the gila, i have run level 4's in it. The ship can do pretty much anything and everything... passive tanked wormhole sites, active tanked HS exploration, low sec exploration, null sec combat anomalies....
The other thing is, it is possible to get one for free, but its dangerous to do so via the Epic Arc I finally traded mine in now that i am out in null and went into a rattlesnake. Honestly the Gurista ships are a no brainer anymore.
Also while its not noob friendly so to speak, as long as you can send out 2 medium drones and pilot the ship you are guaranteed to get better dps than a caracal or corax at your current skills because the role bonus of 500% dmg and hp to drones
(this is in now way condoning flying a almost 300million isk ship as a noob, just singing its praises) |
Typhoid Mary
Alzhara Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.01.22 11:23:55 -
[22] - Quote
Thank you to everyone who has given all that valuable advice! I have learned so much in this thread, and I just wanted to tell everyone I appreciate the time they took to answer this newb's questions.
P.S. This thread evolved into advice on my skills, so I have sort of put together training skill spreadsheet. |
Marsan
265
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Posted - 2015.01.23 16:10:20 -
[23] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Marsan wrote:Honestly the Corax doesn't have the tank ability you are looking for. You could go with the cruiser, but your dps is going to be reduced in lvl2s. Fit light launchers to a cruiser for level 2's, not heavy.
The problem is not that you can't fit lights to the Caracal it's that the Corax is simply better at killing frigates. It can fit 2 more launchers and has a 10% bonus per level to explosion velocity.
Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
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