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Shanaya Venn
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.24 16:37:00 -
[1]
You Gallenteans should know better. What's with this attempted sneakage, with your miners slipping into particularly rich ore-bearing asteroid belts accompanied by military Federation vessels as escort, and stealing (yes, that's the word for it) minerals that are in sovereign Caldari-claimed (and actively mined!) space?
I know it's been going on for a long time, but - What *are* you thinking?
Of course forces are dispatched to deal with your incursions. At times that includes independents like myself. Our presence alone does not scare you off, and then it comes to blows, so to speak. Your navy fellows, I don't have so many qualms about attacking. You are, after all, trespassing, and you come with illicit forces to give you protection while you do so.
But the miners.
You'd think after their escort is toasted they'd *get a clue* and LEAVE THE AREA. I hail them. I warn them off. I tell them to go before I have to open fire to force them to stand down. I realize they're mostly defenseless, at least compared to my cruiser.
And then they stay, and continue to mine ore that is not theirs to take. I sigh, lock target, and loose missiles.
Are the Gallente so very avaricious that the prospect of riches a mere drone flight or mining laser distant is sufficiently tempting to overcome good survival sense? Apparently so.
If I'm mistaken, I trust Gallenteans here will correct me.
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Helpdesk
Caldari The Patriot Pact
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Posted - 2006.09.24 16:48:00 -
[2]
I am glad to see I am not alone in my mission to clean Caldari space of those who steal from it.
Citizens like you give me hope again. Hope after seeing too many liberals who wish to hug those parasites. We should have dinner someday perhaps.
Until then, show them no mercy!
Caldari Space for Caldari Citizens!
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Kaleigh Doyle
Rho Dynamics
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Posted - 2006.09.24 16:49:00 -
[3]
I could really ask the same everytime I'm asked to interdict a Caldari invasion fleet. Are you even aware of what your government tries to pull on a regular basis? It's bad enough with the Cartel, the UDI, Serpentis, and Mordus goons constantly pressuring our systems, but you'd think the State had enough respect for their military personnel to spare their lives for something more substantial.
What do they tell the families?
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Helpdesk
Caldari The Patriot Pact
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Posted - 2006.09.24 16:51:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle What do they tell the families?
"We'll mail the bodies, don't come looking for them."
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Dejhon Vanxler
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2006.09.24 17:57:00 -
[5]
Correct me if im wrong, but the Caldari state is corporate right? Did anyone check to see if those miners were legitimate sub-contractors? Or as I increasingly see do many Caldrai feel Gallente=target regardless of the situation? Id like to know, in case I plan for a trip to the state any time soon....
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Helpdesk
Caldari The Patriot Pact
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Posted - 2006.09.24 18:59:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dejhon Vanxler Or as I increasingly see do many Caldrai feel Gallente=target regardless of the situation?
Any non-Caldari is a target to me, even some Caldari are. There are plenty of Caldari miners looking for employement.
Corporations that care about the State should contract those instead of yet another incapable Vexor pilot.
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Hekaton Keirez
Vindication Angels
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Posted - 2006.09.24 19:44:00 -
[7]
I'm nigh convinced the Caldari-Gallente War never really ended. And when will people get the idea that all of this...conflict comes back to capitalism? It comes back to gain. National boundaries, bloodlines, none of this means a helluva lot when there's money to be made.
Deal with that.
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Tyr Vaantau
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2006.09.24 19:48:00 -
[8]
I have had the same issue whislt in Amarr space too. In the systems of "Nakri" and "Youl".
I would say something, but no doubt my own government is trying the same tricks. I congratulate you on your espionage skills, Gallente, I will enjoy the prizes gained from all of your captured insignia. :)
This is a cold war, we can only expect such underhandedness from all sides. To be honest, the fact that those liberals mangaged to build two entire stargates inside Amarr space impresses me, even if I am the enemy.
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IzzyChan
True Core
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Posted - 2006.09.24 19:56:00 -
[9]
If it bothers you that much, why not just move to 0.0 space? --------------------
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Dejhon Vanxler
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2006.09.24 20:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Helpdesk
Any non-Caldari is a target to me, even some Caldari are. There are plenty of Caldari miners looking for employement
Corporations that care about the State should contract those instead of yet another incapable Vexor pilot.
And what if that Vexor pilot can do the job quicker and for less price? If your arguing for the Caldari State to be a protected economy, thats fine, just put the signs up and everyone else will stay away. But as far as im aware, its still an open border and your government will allow us free passage and trade.If I obay the states laws, pay my sales tax like everyone else, why cant I trade in the state? I understand about your worry that the states natural resorces are being taken, but if your government disagreed, wouldnt your own Navy intervene?
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Shintoko Akahoshi
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.24 22:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dejhon Vanxler Did anyone check to see if those miners were legitimate sub-contractors?
I've run into groups of Gallente miners in similar situations. In my case, their legitimacy as targets was confirmed by Lai Dai Protection Services. I imagine this is the case for others who deal with the specifics of this cool war as well.
The Red Mom of WarÖ
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Takitoo
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Posted - 2006.09.24 23:39:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shanaya Venn [...] forces are dispatched to deal with your incursions. At times that includes independents like myself. Our presence alone does not scare you off, and then it comes to blows, so to speak. Your navy fellows, I don't have so many qualms about attacking. You are, after all, trespassing, [...]
You'd think after their escort is toasted they'd *get a clue* and LEAVE THE AREA. I hail them. I warn them off. I tell them to go before I have to (read: want to)open fire to force them to stand down. I realize they're mostly defenseless, at least compared to my cruiser.
And then they stay, and continue to mine ore that is not theirs to take. I sigh, lock target, and loose missiles. [...]
So, how's the piracy treating you ? ___________________________
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Shanaya Venn
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.25 07:02:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Helpdesk I am glad to see I am not alone in my mission to clean Caldari space of those who steal from it.
Citizens like you give me hope again. Hope after seeing too many liberals who wish to hug those parasites. We should have dinner someday perhaps.
Until then, show them no mercy!
Caldari Space for Caldari Citizens!
You mistake me, HD. I am a patriot, but perhaps not your kind of extreme patriot.
Foreigners are good for business.
*Legal* foreigners. Paying their taxes. With appropriate permits for trading, or manufacturing, or...mining. The permits are not hard to acquire, and those who undertake such ventures legally are abundant.
My complaint is with those who sneak in the back door to steal.
I took no joy in slaying trespassers who simply ~would~not~leave~. But the rules of engagement in my mission contract were explicit. And when it comes to business and contracts, I am nothing if not a by-the-numbers kinda gal.
I lament that these intruders did not stand down and depart. They really didn't have to die for a hold full of rocks.
I still don't understand what they were thinking.
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Shanaya Venn
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.25 07:09:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dejhon Vanxler Correct me if im wrong, but the Caldari state is corporate right? Did anyone check to see if those miners were legitimate sub-contractors? Or as I increasingly see do many Caldrai feel Gallente=target regardless of the situation? Id like to know, in case I plan for a trip to the state any time soon....
You need a reality check.
When was the last time you saw subcontractors for X, escorted by military force from Y, who is not (in force) allowed into X's space?
Answer: never.
(Doesn't matter what polity we're speaking of here. The realities of foreign military presence in an empire's sovereign territory remain pretty much the same throughout New Eden.)
Does this not provide to you a large stomping hint that this was an incursion, as opposed to contractors who foolishly (and impossibly) hired the military forces of another government for guard services?
That is why the Caldari Navy - tasked with protecting the security of our territories - targeted this group in the first place.
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Shanaya Venn
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.25 07:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle I could really ask the same everytime I'm asked to interdict a Caldari invasion fleet.
I see a vast difference between a military task force (which you choose to call 'invasion fleet', but I think if we'd sent a proper fleet all the world would know it by now), and a cadre of *miners*, for crying out loud, who don't know when to quit and go home.
Quote: Are you even aware of what your government tries to pull on a regular basis?
I've heard these allegations from foreigners before. I have yet to see proof, and this is certainly not anything I've heard on the news. I won't say it's not happening, but I am dubious until I see something more solid than hysterical accusations.
Besides - one must ask, if our forces are probing your space (not saying they are, but on the hypothetical possibility) - if they are doing so....perhaps they have a reason to? A military and astro-political reason to?
Something more significant, one would hope, than raiding ore fields. (!)
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Shanaya Venn
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.25 07:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tyr Vaantau This is a cold war, we can only expect such underhandedness from all sides.
You put your finger on it, right there. We are still at war, in a way.
I still don't get why they risk their civilians (miners) rather than only their military "oops, strayed 12 star systems over the border on a routine patrol" forces.
Or more to the point, why any civilian would volunteer for such a suicide mission. SURELY they know we patrol our space, and will catch them - and kill them - sooner or later.
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Shanaya Venn
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.25 07:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Takitoo So, how's the piracy treating you ?
I know you are the Voice of Irreverance on GalNet. Amusing as that is at times, in this instance I really must ask: when was the last time a citizen patrolling/protecting local sovereign space at the behest of the military (i.e. a duly authorized lawful force of the government) was equivalent to a *pirate*?
Please.
If it had been rats I'd caught in that asteroid belt I'd have let loose the hellfire with nary a second thought, and celebrated the kills after at Mabel's.
That's where I stand on piracy.
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Takitoo
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Posted - 2006.09.25 07:40:00 -
[18]
Ok, you engaged a mining convoy in an area of space that is not surrounded by "closed borders" attacking federal vessels and then attacking mining vessels for the "theft" of ore that you perceive belongs to the state, simply by floating within state borders.
My question then is this, since they were obviously stealing the states ore, is every foreign miner in state space a thief ? Or only miners that have an escort ? Or is it only Gallente miners ? Or could it only be Gallente miners with an escort ? Where do you say they're thieves for mining, and where are they not thieves for mining ? On that note, me being a Matari, should I ever transport Ore through the state, or dare mine, am I stealing as well ? Or does all the ore I have really belong to you ? Does all cargo that is within state space belong to the state ? But wait. If a Caldari mines in Matari space, is all the ore there the states as well ? Since it is Caldari mined.
That's what most "camping" consists of: Attack anyone "encroaching" on a desired ressource that you laid some claim to.
You laid claim to some random and through a simple search perfectly replaceable rocks floating in space and engaged a federal mining convoy. How is that not piracy ?
Believe me, I know a piratical act when I see one. ___________________________
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Dejhon Vanxler
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2006.09.25 07:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Shanaya Venn
That is why the Caldari Navy - tasked with protecting the security of our territories - targeted this group in the first place.
Which wasnt said the first time Shanaya, theres a big diffrence between to some 'concernd' Caldari citizens takining it upon them selves to blast away at Gallente's, its another if your Navy chalanges those same Gallente and they arnt smart enough to take the hint. The Federation reconises the sovrenty of the Caldari state.
Question is, where was this 'incident' ? There is alot of space out there with disputed sovrenty.
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Shanaya Venn
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.25 08:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dejhon Vanxler
Originally by: Shanaya Venn
That is why the Caldari Navy - tasked with protecting the security of our territories - targeted this group in the first place.
Which wasnt said the first time Shanaya, theres a big diffrence between to some 'concernd' Caldari citizens takining it upon them selves to blast away at Gallente's, its another if your Navy chalanges those same Gallente and they arnt smart enough to take the hint. The Federation reconises the sovrenty of the Caldari state.
It was referred to when I said,
Quote: [F]orces are dispatched to deal with your incursions. At times that includes independents like myself.
In the heat of the moment (I wrote just after I killed these poor sods) I did not think to expand upon that.
This particular incident was in Isikemi, in the Lonetrek region. Not at all a fringe area, and certainly not bordering Federation space.
Quote: Question is, where was this 'incident' ? There is alot of space out there with disputed sovrenty.
It was trespass and theft, escorted by Federation forces, pure and simple.
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Shanaya Venn
Caldari Racing Turtle Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.09.25 10:55:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Shanaya Venn on 25/09/2006 10:58:47
Originally by: Takitoo My question then is this, since they were obviously stealing the states ore, is every foreign miner in state space a thief?...
Of course not. Nor was this sort of action a random attack on just "any" pilot from outside Caldari who chooses to mine our ore. It was a calculated response to a Federation military incursion as much as (or more than) it was to the theft they were supporting.
Quote: You laid claim to some random and through a simple search perfectly replaceable rocks floating in space and engaged a federal mining convoy. How is that not piracy ?
*I* did not claim this territory. The Caldari State did, and chose to respond to a territorial intrusion by Federation military forces. I personally don't concern myself with whether or not random individuals encountered in asteroid belts "should" be there or not. I am not (usually) paid to patrol them.
However, when dispatched on a mission by a State authority (the Navy), different circumstances prevail. Our Navy's relayed transponder data tags suspicious intruders differently than they do all other ordinary pilots going about their business (labelling the military-escorted intruders, for instance, "Gallente Navy Officer" and "Gallente Miner"). Hence the culprits of interest are designated separately from any and all other miners or shipping traffic.
"Piracy", by definition, is an extra-legal act. I, on the other hand, acted specifically (and only) at the behest of state authority. The two conditions are not analogous.
I would further argue that no one acting at the overt and legal request of state authority (regardless of which state) can be accused of piracy (privateering, perhaps, in certain circumstances, but piracy, no). The motives and frameworks of the activities are simply not comparable. Protecting sovereign interests and boundaries with armed force has always been the prerogative of the state (notice lower case - I mean *any* state, not just Caldari State). Individuals deputized to accomplish that goal are not therefore pirates just because you don't like what they've targeted with their cross-hairs.
Quote: Believe me, I know a piratical act when I see one.
Then you need new glasses. Or a different lens.
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.25 12:20:00 -
[22]
I have to agree with Shanaya Venn that the spread of the Gallante "influence" is like a disease plaque spreading across the borders into areas controlled like others. I have posted a SERMON HERE IN THIS THREAD to discuss their corruption and negative influences. All should read and heed my words for your very soul is at risk.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Kaleigh Doyle
Rho Dynamics
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Posted - 2006.09.25 15:13:00 -
[23]
Hysterical accusations?
Listen sister, I've been performing security operations when you were still in the academy, so spare me your condescending tone. I have a pile of Naval dogtags that says otherwise, and the survivors that were rescued confirmed these operations. They have no more reason to be there than the Cartel or the Sansha, and a vast majority of them pay for it with their lives. If you choose to ignore the situation, it's your people that will continue to suffer needlessly invading the Federation's borders, because there are thousands of pilots like myself everyday that will continue to curtail them.
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Jon Engel
APEX Unlimited
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Posted - 2006.09.25 16:21:00 -
[24]
The Long winded rambling award goes to.....
Shanaya Venn!
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Kailea Shandrasekkar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.09.25 16:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle (..) because there are thousands of pilots like myself everyday that will continue to curtail them.
A totalitarian govern disguised as democratic heaven should know better. Do your part as you see fit; we'll continue to do ours. Rentlessly.
Haak-kin k'len. |
Jean Daniels
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Posted - 2006.09.25 18:27:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Jean Daniels on 25/09/2006 18:28:03
Originally by: Archbishop
I have to agree with Shanaya Venn that the spread of the Gallante "influence" is like a disease plaque spreading across the borders into areas controlled like others. I have posted a SERMON HERE IN THIS THREAD to discuss their corruption and negative influences. All should read and heed my words for your very soul is at risk. I would love to declear war on behalf of the Gallante. Your comments are not welcome, Archbishop.
Archbishop
I would love to declear war on behalf of the Gallitene
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Kailea Shandrasekkar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.09.25 18:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Jean Daniels I would love to declear war on behalf of the Gallitene
Check your spelling processor. Seems it's faulty.
Haak-kin k'len. |
Kaleigh Doyle
Rho Dynamics
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Posted - 2006.09.25 19:07:00 -
[28]
There's nothing totalitarian about defending your homeland, Kailea.
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Sintasi
Kokyu Trust Fund
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Posted - 2006.09.25 19:18:00 -
[29]
Just some more Caldari flag-waving and saber-rattling. I'm just glad your actual government (That means the people actually in charge, not a bunch of Caldari Grunts) is aware that no state of war exists between the Federation and the Caldari.
Let her boast about her successful completion of a minor Navy contract. Because that's all it is. ___________________________
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Kailea Shandrasekkar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.09.25 19:43:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Kailea Shandrasekkar on 25/09/2006 19:46:29
Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle There's nothing totalitarian about defending your homeland, Kailea.
Well, i'll beat the dead horse, and mention that it was the Gallente who started the blockade over Caldari Prime - the first move towards war. Your post seems to blame us for the intrusions. I'm pointing out that the Gallente are as guilty as you claim the Caldari to be, and as totalitarian as we're accused to be. There's no innocents here. We'll continue to act as the Chief Executive Panel demmand us to.
Just as a reference, a Totalitarian society is one in which the main ideology of the state had influence, if not power, over most of its citizens.
((EDIT: Fixing HTML tags. bleh.))
Haak-kin k'len. |
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