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Adarnof
Free Trade Monopoly You Are Being Monitored
62
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Posted - 2015.01.23 02:39:28 -
[1] - Quote
Nice to see some chatter about wormholes in the CSM minutes today.
Remember back when Hyperion was being shoved down our throats, Fozzie had a wonderful graph displaying user activities in wormhole space? If I recall correctly (one can confirm this by reading just one page of the still-pinned and active feedback threads) the changes were not well received. I'm well past the point of arguing about them, but frankly I think we're owed some followup statistics showing the effect Hyperion has had.
About a month ago I poked current CSM members regarding statistics and was told they could do nothing, that I had to bother Fozzie. Well consider yourself bothered, sir. I hear you have the stats ready: "CCP Fozzie opened the meeting by showing the CSM some new statistics regarding activity in wormhole space. " (CSM Winter Summit day two minutes, page 2). Are they ready to be shared with the rest of the community? I'd be eager to see if the outcome was as drastic as feared or if we players were willing to adapt from the get-go.
Frankly I'm disappointed we're entering month 6 of this change with no response from CCP. With such notable outrage (remember those mobile depots outside Jita?) warranting the release of the ISD hounds onto our poor subforum, I'd think CCP would be interested in repairing their relation with our niche community. This would be a good first step.
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calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
246
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Posted - 2015.01.23 05:32:20 -
[2] - Quote
My only complaint is that those threads havent been unstickied.
~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
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Newt BlackCompany
BlackCompany Personal Corp
24
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Posted - 2015.01.23 07:03:24 -
[3] - Quote
It would be interesting to see those statistics... |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1193
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Posted - 2015.01.23 08:32:43 -
[4] - Quote
calaretu wrote:My only complaint is that those threads havent been unstickied.
i'll see if i can get them unstickied
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1193
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Posted - 2015.01.23 08:35:29 -
[5] - Quote
Adarnof wrote:About a month ago I poked current CSM members regarding statistics and was told they could do nothing, that I had to bother Fozzie. Well consider yourself bothered, sir. I hear you have the stats ready: "CCP Fozzie opened the meeting by showing the CSM some new statistics regarding activity in wormhole space. " ( CSM Winter Summit day two minutes, page 2). Are they ready to be shared with the rest of the community? I'd be eager to see if the outcome was as drastic as feared or if we players were willing to adapt from the get-go.
thing is there are stats and there are STATS, and its something i'm working on since i'd love to get some stuff for everyone to see.
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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HoruSeth
Republic University Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2015.01.23 08:38:04 -
[6] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Adarnof wrote:I'd be eager to see if the outcome was as drastic as feared or if we players were willing to adapt from the get-go. thing is there are stats and there are STATS, and its something i'm working on since i'd love to get some stuff for everyone to see.
So drastic, that you need to work on them? |
Nnezu
Artificial Memories Vertical.
12
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Posted - 2015.01.23 10:38:06 -
[7] - Quote
The outrage was from a vocal few, and you're totally forgeting about the people who actually LOVE those changes. And to be fair, the mass of closed threads was not constructive feedback but plain trolling and namecalling. |
Papa Django
CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue
50
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Posted - 2015.01.23 10:41:14 -
[8] - Quote
Hyperion was a disaster for wormhole activity. We saw nobody in wormholes at that time. The next releases were the best wormholes release, the large anchor rig fixed the issue for collapsing, the pop of nullsec data/relic + the up for blue loots have augmented drastically the low class wormhole activity.
Everything is fine now :) |
HTC NecoSino
No Vacancies
133
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Posted - 2015.01.23 14:00:44 -
[9] - Quote
It's harder to camp bears, it's easier to run sites. The feeling of safety leads to more bears More bears leads to less need to camp bears Bears are flying shinier ships than before due to the increased isk being made
As a PvPer who took a break when the API was turned off, and came back this past December, I've been having as much fun now as I was from before the changes. |
Levina Windstar
Mekalon Industry
84
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Posted - 2015.01.23 14:02:43 -
[10] - Quote
What's happening is that there is more explorer in WH = more people scanning = WH have more open connections in them. But you almost never see any sign of life for any PVE activities. Most of the activity is ppl farming Null-sec site from time to time or doing gas untill the sleeper wave spawn.
Like it or hate it, that's what WH is now...
"I can make billions using my mouth ...
... and sometimes when I talk, too" --- Solecist Project
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Sith1s Spectre
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
1288
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Posted - 2015.01.23 14:28:51 -
[11] - Quote
I would honestly say nowdays there's more activity and ships moving around WH space (from my perspective) than there has been in the past year.
Back in WH space baby
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Icarus Able
Revenant Tactical
532
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Posted - 2015.01.23 17:25:09 -
[12] - Quote
To be fair. 6 months is the minimum you need to see how good any serious changes are. The first months stats are pointless as its just the old guard whining about change. After that people adapt and you can finally see numbers that matter.
Releasing the stats prematurely might have caused outrage and calls to change it back before any lasting changes could be seen.
This coming from someone that is still against the wormhole mass distance changes. |
Adarnof
Free Trade Monopoly You Are Being Monitored
65
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Posted - 2015.01.24 01:08:08 -
[13] - Quote
corbexx wrote:thing is there are stats and there are STATS, and its something i'm working on since i'd love to get some stuff for everyone to see. You're always one step ahead eh? Glad to hear it's being addressed.
Nnezu wrote:The outrage was from a vocal few, and you're totally forgeting about the people who actually LOVE those changes. And to be fair, the mass of closed threads was not constructive feedback but plain trolling and namecalling. The bulk of the action on forums and reddit were opposed, so it's a big leap to say that the bulk of people were in favour. There's absolutely no way that can be concluded. Sure some people love it, but they were greatly outnumbered by those opposed.
Papa Django wrote:Hyperion was a disaster for wormhole activity. We saw nobody in wormholes at that time. The next releases were the best wormholes release, the large anchor rig fixed the issue for collapsing, the pop of nullsec data/relic + the up for blue loots have augmented drastically the low class wormhole activity.
Everything is fine now :) Indeed the recent patches have renewed interest in wormholes, but this interest was only renewed because it was first lost with Hyperion. The bad changes are still bad, just masked with a few band-aids.
Icarus Able wrote:To be fair. 6 months is the minimum you need to see how good any serious changes are. The first months stats are pointless as its just the old guard whining about change. After that people adapt and you can finally see numbers that matter.
Releasing the stats prematurely might have caused outrage and calls to change it back before any lasting changes could be seen. So where do we draw the line of prematurity? If immediately after the changes the population crashed, that is a good enough indication they're bad. It took a mere two months for CCP to declare success of their industry change with some nice graphs on the o7 show yet even at 6 months we can't have a single statistic? Frankly I think the longer we wait the more CCP will simply say "look the population is back to normal" as a result of their most recent patches, instead of showing us the crash a lot of us expect.
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4185
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Posted - 2015.01.24 01:31:45 -
[14] - Quote
Nnezu wrote:The outrage was from a vocal few, and you're totally forgeting about the people who actually LOVE those changes. And to be fair, the mass of closed threads was not constructive feedback but plain trolling and namecalling. Also, threads autolock after 3 months if no one posts in them.
If you want stuff unstickied, put a report in and we'll look into it.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Erica Dusette
Isogen 5
34779
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Posted - 2015.01.24 03:36:22 -
[15] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:I would honestly say nowdays there's more activity and ships moving around WH space (from my perspective) than there has been in the past year. This, from my perspective too.
Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!
Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel
The Endgame | Wormhole Diaries
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Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
368
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Posted - 2015.01.24 09:58:10 -
[16] - Quote
Adarnof wrote: The bulk of the action on forums and reddit were opposed, so it's a big leap to say that the bulk of people were in favour. There's absolutely no way that can be concluded. Sure some people love it, but they were greatly outnumbered by those opposed.
You just see it this way because you opposed the change as well, and who'd want to admit being a whiny little baby. Even if that's exactly what the whiners were, whining babies who don't even have the spine to come out now and admit that it didn't kill w-space.
Quote:Indeed the recent patches have renewed interest in wormholes, but this interest was only renewed because it was first lost with Hyperion. The bad changes are still bad, just masked with a few band-aids.
Still the same old song- wh PVP activity died long before Hyperion. The decline started already in 2013, and had nothing to do with Hyperion. Which brought only good changes.
Nothing that would attract PVP groups to w-space, however. |
Adarnof
Free Trade Monopoly You Are Being Monitored
65
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Posted - 2015.01.24 19:35:32 -
[17] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:You just see it this way because you opposed the change as well, and troll troll troll troll troll And you see it your way because you were in favour. If you can count past 10, here's a lovely for/against summary on everyone's favourite change.
Aiyshimin wrote:Still the same old song- wh PVP activity died long before Hyperion. The decline started already in 2013, and had nothing to do with Hyperion. Which brought only good changes.
Nothing that would attract PVP groups to w-space, however. Same old anecdotal evidence. I bet we could prove this one way or another if CCP released some activity statistics. Oh wait, that was the original point of this thread. Carry on, space troll!
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Alundil
Isogen 5
843
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Posted - 2015.01.25 18:35:46 -
[18] - Quote
Erica Dusette wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:I would honestly say nowdays there's more activity and ships moving around WH space (from my perspective) than there has been in the past year. This, from my perspective too. I concur
I'm right behind you
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Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
375
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Posted - 2015.01.25 21:05:53 -
[19] - Quote
Adarnof wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:You just see it this way because you opposed the change as well, and troll troll troll troll troll And you see it your way because you were in favour. If you can count past 10, here's a lovely for/against summary on everyone's favourite change. Aiyshimin wrote:Still the same old song- wh PVP activity died long before Hyperion. The decline started already in 2013, and had nothing to do with Hyperion. Which brought only good changes.
Nothing that would attract PVP groups to w-space, however. Same old anecdotal evidence. I bet we could prove this one way or another if CCP released some activity statistics. Oh wait, that was the original point of this thread. Carry on, space troll!
Read the CSM minutes mate.
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Adoris Nolen
Sama Guild
77
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Posted - 2015.01.25 22:48:58 -
[20] - Quote
Was strongly against the changes & still hate them. The summary of my wh activity nowadays is hauling shortcuts & C5 gas.
Industry pays the bills now. |
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Pissfat
Reverse Production
5
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Posted - 2015.01.25 23:15:52 -
[21] - Quote
Adoris Nolen wrote:Was strongly against the changes & still hate them. The summary of my wh activity nowadays is hauling shortcuts & C5 gas.
Industry pays the bills now.
You still whining about Hyperion pleases me greatly. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
698
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Posted - 2015.02.02 21:42:51 -
[22] - Quote
Activity in w-space is way, way up. At least in c1-4, I don't visit c5/6 much these days.
Hyperion made the old, bored, bitter people leave, freeing up hundreds of systems formerly occupied by undead and inactive but entrenched zombie players. That those minor changes were enough to send them packing, in many cases before the patch was even deployed, was proof that all they needed was just this little push.
And then the following changes drew new, fresh blood into w-space, along with those vets who saw how good the changes were. Now it's better than ever.
.
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Incindir Mauser
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
494
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Posted - 2015.02.02 22:23:48 -
[23] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Activity in w-space is way, way up. At least in c1-4, I don't visit c5/6 much these days.
That's because if you run sites you can expect 1-2 sheild nags to come farm your archon and moros pilots one or two sites in.
Sitekilling runners is the new bloodsport in c5/6.
Quote: Hyperion made the old, bored, bitter people leave, freeing up hundreds of systems formerly occupied by undead and inactive but entrenched zombie players. That those minor changes were enough to send them packing, in many cases before the patch was even deployed, was proof that all they needed was just this little push.
And then the following changes drew new, fresh blood into w-space, along with those vets who saw how good the changes were. Now it's better than ever.
They didn't leave, they coalesced into bigger corps to seek the warm cynical glow of fellow geriatrics huddled around the burning towers of smaller corps that didn't throw themselves upon the guns of the 70 man "good fights" T3 fleets.
I'm pretty sure XLSMA's now come with handicap parking.
Change is good. |
Adarnof
Free Trade Monopoly You Are Being Monitored
67
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Posted - 2015.03.03 19:30:49 -
[24] - Quote
As much as I hate digging up old threads, I think this one needs some revitalization.
Dearest Fozzie has demonstrated in today's devblog he both has metrics to analyze and is willing to share them - with all communities but ours. Industry metrics were shown mere weeks after their launch. How many months since phoebe? Not nearly as many as Hyperion, and IMHO the phoebe changes were more drastic than those in Hyperion. We know these metrics exist, and a big shout out to corbexx to doing what he can to get them to us, but frankly it's time to spill the beans CCP.
What can I say, I'm bitter, and the Grr Fozzie is strong today. |
MooMooDachshundCow
Incertae Sedis
194
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Posted - 2015.03.03 19:34:26 -
[25] - Quote
Nah, we can't have that sort of thing. Remember kiddies, wormhole space is supposed to be the unknown.
Yeah, well, it's just like my-áopinion, man.
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Pissfat
Reverse Production
21
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Posted - 2015.03.03 20:45:37 -
[26] - Quote
Adarnof wrote:As much as I hate digging up old threads, I think this one needs some revitalization. Dearest Fozzie has demonstrated in today's devblog he both has metrics to analyze and is willing to share them - with all communities but ours. Industry metrics were shown mere weeks after their launch. How many months since phoebe? Not nearly as many as Hyperion, and IMHO the phoebe changes were more drastic than those in Hyperion. We know these metrics exist, and a big shout out to corbexx to doing what he can to get them to us, but frankly it's time to spill the beans CCP. What can I say, I'm bitter, and the Grr Fozzie is strong today.
+1
I am Winthorp, you may remember me from such films as....
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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
2134
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Posted - 2015.03.04 03:01:49 -
[27] - Quote
You see, the problem with Fozzie is he takes a trend and, even though the dev blog and Phoebe both occur after the trend is already in its full swing, extrapolates that the trend was caused post-facto by the thing he hopes to see as resulting from the patches, ipso facto he searches for a conclusion and finds the one he was looking for.
For example the graph of 2 week rolling-average of ISK lost in nullsec PVP shows a trend - which began half a period before the graph shows it beginning - which got in train n August of 2014. The dev blog was released in October 2014 and Phoebe in november.
The trend, which in stockbroking terminology (i used to be a Technician, so pity me) is an upward channel, lasts 4 months, then breaks over the Christmas-new Year break. Technicians amongst you will realise there's a seasonality at work here but technics-wise the channel get broken and forms a pennant. The pennant is forming and coming to a break point in the next month or two; upward pennants like this can either break upwards or downwards.
The same pennant pattern is apparent in the total number of nullsec kills which in this unitless void, also matches a half-pennant forming in nullsec jumps (though this suggests the correction will be downwards when the pattern breaks).
The graph of capital ship deaths is interesting, as it shows mortality has increased and is holding at a higher base level than pre-Phoebe. The question is why - is it more capitals getting caught on gate or with access to the numbers, could one re-base it or correct for the nullsec population (ie; is a slight increase in population causing more caps to undock and hence die), or correct it for capital gate jumps, capital jumps, damage dealt by capitals to structures, or indeed capital damage dealt to rats.
My analysis of the nullsec population is that it's probably a good simulant for wormhole population (and my experiences picking up bittervets from nullsec during Phoebe's deployment). The population increased as players subbed up, loaded all their crap into their suitcase carriers, and the population crashes as people evacuate nullsec. Then a bunch join the HERO Coalition, and the population re-establishes itself.
There was also probably an element, over the new year period, of ISBoxing toons being un-subbed or leaving nullsec en-masse, to be flogged off on the forums - a process still continuing to this day as adjudged by a quick trawl of the IS Boxer bazaar yesterday.
For wormholes, same deal. People table flipped at the Hyperion changes, tossed their babies out with the bathwater, and silently crawled back into a big blobby C5 bear corp without making a big hooplah about it once they got sick of playing grab-ass with level 4 rats.
Prolapse. Taking fights since 2014.
Sudden Buggery. Got duumb? Hola, Batmanuel!
http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Kirasten
No Vacancies
127
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Posted - 2015.03.04 04:50:44 -
[28] - Quote
Still wish our caps spawned in refit range of each other |
HoruSeth
Republic University Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2015.03.04 08:39:41 -
[29] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Activity in w-space is way, way up. At least in c1-4, I don't visit c5/6 much these days.
Hyperion made the old, bored, bitter people leave, freeing up hundreds of systems formerly occupied by undead and inactive but entrenched zombie players. That those minor changes were enough to send them packing, in many cases before the patch was even deployed, was proof that all they needed was just this little push.
And then the following changes drew new, fresh blood into w-space, along with those vets who saw how good the changes were. Now it's better than ever.
Exactly. It have been the following changes, because they saw what they destroyed with Hyperion ;) And I am sure it's pretty obvious in their statistics and that's why they don't show them to us. :)
The only reasons, that nowadays wormhole life is more lively again are:
- Blue loot increase - 0.0 Hacking Sites - Fullerite value increase
That's it and has nothing to do with Hyperion. We kill so much more CovOps frigates just because of 0.0 Hacking Sites. If they wouldn't have implemented it to stop lowclass wormholes running dry you would seldomly meet someone these days in C1 to C3.
And statistics would prove that. I am pretty sure.
Hyperion announcement and patch release --> drastic decrease of people living in low class wormholes
Blue Loot Event & Blue Loot increase & 0.0 Hacking Sites & T3 Destroyer Announcement --> stopped the drop of numbers of people being active in low class wormholes and it slowly began to recover.
I am pretty sure they had no other choice. Otherwise Hyperion would have been a catastrophe for low-class wormholes and only bigger corps in higher classes would have remained mainly. |
Marox Calendale
Human League
38
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Posted - 2015.03.04 14:34:09 -
[30] - Quote
HoruSeth wrote:I am pretty sure they had no other choice. Otherwise Hyperion would have been a catastrophe for low-class wormholes and only bigger corps in higher classes would have remained mainly. Sorry but i absolutely disagree with you. Hyperion was a great Change. The only Thing which is still mostly useless are the frig holes, but may be if the other 2 D3-¦s are released still will change, too.
Wormholers are the strongest survivors of New Eden, and anyone who wasn-¦t able to adapt Hyperion is not worth be called a wormholer in my opinion. See those Null Secs P****** crying instantly because they now have to work for their Sov. Don-¦t cry like those b***** or go back to HighSec or wherever you think it-¦s better to live. Wormholers are tough! Wormholers don-¦t cry! Wormholers can adapt! Those who can-¦t shouldn-¦t be wormholers. |
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