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Kale Raleigh
Blacktech Inc.
5
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Posted - 2015.01.23 04:20:15 -
[1] - Quote
I have been looking at fits and reading responses to my threads and have noticed that sometimes people fit, for example, rapid missile launchers on a Caracal for missions, or light missile launchers on stealth bombers for killing explorers. Situations like that I don't really understand. Obviously you get some benefit but I have no idea what that is and **WHEN you would choose to make a fitting choice as such.**
Thanks o7
P.S. I seem to turn ******** when it comes to fitting. Does anyone know of any articles they could shoot my way just so I actually moderately start to understand how to come about fitting ships (and what ship) for specific purposes. I don't want to have to look on battle-clinic for the rest of my EVE career. |
Justin Zaine
127
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Posted - 2015.01.23 04:44:39 -
[2] - Quote
The first thing you have to realize is that Eve is just one giant game of rock paper scissors, albeit a very complicated one. Every ship fit in Eve is designed to do one or two things very well, and cannot do everything at once, hence the saying that there is no best ship in Eve. All ships are simply tools that have a counter, and it's our job as pilots to decide how, when and where to apply those tools.
Someone that fits rocket launchers to a bomber to kill cov ops frigate explorers is pretty much only capable of performing that one role. If he were to attack anything larger or capable of shooting back, he'd be dead.
A pilot with an MWD on his ship is probably toast if he gets scrammed.
An active tanking T3 can be taken down extremely easily if neuted out.
Etc.
Proficiency with fitting comes with experience. It takes a long time to learn what goes well on what ships, and some vets are still terrible at it. The best thing you can do is start with small ships, a preferred combat style and surround yourself with knowledgeable people. If in doubt, browse battleclinic or use google. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7155
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Posted - 2015.01.23 06:36:34 -
[3] - Quote
Start with these questions.
- What ships, mods, and weapons do I have available?
- What ships, mods, and weapons can I use well (both in terms of skills and familiarity)?
- What kinds of ships do I want to kill?
A Caracal that fits Rapid Lights is going to be a Frigate/Destroyer killer (because light missiles apply very well against Frigates and Destroyers). But this will come at the cost of not being very good against much else (due to lower sustained damage that is required against larger targets).
Ergo... a Caracal that fits Rapid Lights is going to want to engage primarily against Frigates and Destroyers... and not much else.
A Stealth Bombers that fits Rocket Launchers is doing something similar... giving up its ability to deal high damage against large targets in exchange for being viable against smaller ones.
Now you might ask, "couldn't another frigate perform better at this role?" Why yes, there are other frigates that can kill other frigates better. But what other frigates have the ability to use a Covert-Ops cloak AND do not have a locking delay after decloaking? Only the the Astero comes close to that criteria. However it costs about 100 million ISK. And uses drones. A Rocket-fit Stealth Bomber is around the 30 million ISK range and uses weapons similar to Torpedoes (meaning you can lose 3 SBs trying and don't have to cross train that much).
Bottom line: fitting a ship is more of an art than a science. You can never get it exactly right. The best you can do is remember the base principle of fitting ("gank, tank, speed, utility/Ewar... choose 2.5"), play with the fitting, test it out, and refine the fit based on your experiences (win or lose).
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Batman Zur-En-Arrh
0
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Posted - 2015.01.23 22:18:29 -
[4] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:- What kinds of ships do I want to kill?
I think this is the part that needs explaining the most. If I were to list a specific ship and fitting, how would you know what to send against it? Experience might be part of it but I imagine the bulk of reason is because I listed a 'paper' fitting so you chose a 'scissors' fitting to counter it. And while it's easy enough to say "your enemy is paper so choose scissors", it's much more difficult to know what exactly makes the enemy a paper, why it loses to scissors and how to build scissors so you can beat him. It also would be helpful to know what beats my scissors and how to spot it before it kills me.
Because I'm Batman
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7163
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Posted - 2015.01.24 03:04:16 -
[5] - Quote
I agree with you wholeheartedly Batman.
The way I learned was basically "suiciding" cheapo tackle frigates at targets (for the people I was part of a fleet with).
What I paid close attention to was how long I lived against certain ships... then I learned how to ID weapons (which I took the time to familiarize myself with)... and then I paid attention to see how long I lived against certain ships with certain weapons fitted.
I asked the people I was in a corporation with the "fast and dirty rules" about weapon mechanics... how certain things worked they way they did... what each mod on a ship did on the fits they gave me and WHY it was important.
Then I went back and tried to apply that knowledge to see if I could live longer.
The whole thing was a process that had to be learned bit by bit. Eventually patterns started to emerge.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Valkin Mordirc
602
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Posted - 2015.01.24 03:38:20 -
[6] - Quote
Quote:then I learned how to ID weapons
+1000 to this.
This skill, can absolutely tell you what kinda of tank your enemy has, or even his entire fit.
Like a Thorax with Neutron Blasters is probably shield tanked and paper thin but does a ton of DPS. Where as one with with Electrons will be armored either active or buffer, but still a large tank for a T1 cruiser. For thorax with Rails will be Micro fitted with one LSE and will try to kite you.
Or a Ferox with 200mm autocannons is going to have a huge tank, probably dual ASB's, Same goes for a Maller, Autocannons= Bait tanked. A ferox with 5 Neutrons and two Ions will be buffer tanked and have a NOS.
It comes with experience with playing around with all ships types and coming up against them but the ability to quickly have an accurate estimate of what your opponent is using is beyond helpful.
#DeleteTheWeak
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7165
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Posted - 2015.01.24 04:20:59 -
[7] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Quote:then I learned how to ID weapons +1000 to this. This skill, can absolutely tell you what kinda of tank your enemy has, or even his entire fit. Like a Thorax with Neutron Blasters is probably shield tanked and paper thin but does a ton of DPS. Where as one with with Electrons will be armored either active or buffer, Pretty much. That is actually how I developed my personal pet theory regarding ship fittings; "tank, gank, speed, utility Ewar... choose 2.5"
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Batman Zur-En-Arrh
3
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Posted - 2015.01.26 20:14:56 -
[8] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Quote:then I learned how to ID weapons +1000 to this. This skill, can absolutely tell you what kinda of tank your enemy has, or even his entire fit. Like a Thorax with Neutron Blasters is probably shield tanked and paper thin but does a ton of DPS. Where as one with with Electrons will be armored either active or buffer, but still a large tank for a T1 cruiser. For thorax with Rails will be Micro fitted with one LSE and will try to kite you.
I know you just used it as an example of what's possible but to someone who doesn't know what a Thorax is or what the requirements/stats of Neutron Blasters are, this statement really help us know why it is likely shield-tanked. The problem I see is, most newbies are going to be asking questions that seem to specifically call for this kind of response but because it doesn't help me understand the 'why' of it, it doesn't really help me become a master fitter. I don't think that's a problem with the answer but rather the question.
What this tells me is that before I can truly understand proper fitting, I need to learn everything there is to know about every ship, module and ammunition in the game. Know the stats and requirements by heart and be able to identify them at a glance. It's a daunting task, to say the least, but until I have it all memorized, I'm going to be stuck relying on either decent builds I've found on the internet or sub-par builds I've attempted to create on my own.
It's an overwhelmingly daunting task but I think it's ultimately what separates the wheat from the chaff. Once a player gets it all memorized, they'll be able to make the same kinds of analyses. They'll know that a particular weapon uses a lot of CPU and that the ship they're equipped to doesn't have a lot to spare. This means that certain other modules can't be fitted and by process of elimination, this is what your opponent is most likely using. With enough combat experience, you'll then be able to determine what tactic they're most likely trying to employ and be able to come up with a counter strategy.
So the big question I have is, where would be the best place to look for organized information to help with the memorization aspect?
Because I'm Batman
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Antillie Sa'Kan
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
881
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Posted - 2015.01.26 23:55:04 -
[9] - Quote
Batman Zur-En-Arrh wrote:So the big question I have is, where would be the best place to look for organized information to help with the memorization aspect? Honestly, your own kill board. Go loose a bunch of cheap ships. Its the best way to learn. Its also the most fun. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
601
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Posted - 2015.01.27 15:05:06 -
[10] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote: hence the saying that there is no best ship in Eve.
Utter bullcrap.
The best ship in EvE is the Friendship |
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Justin Zaine
140
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Posted - 2015.01.27 17:13:07 -
[11] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Justin Zaine wrote: hence the saying that there is no best ship in Eve. Utter bullcrap. The best ship in EvE is the Friendship
I knew somebody would say that.
******* knew it. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
213
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Posted - 2015.01.28 16:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mega pulse lasers ii is the only weapon you'll ever need... |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1420
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Posted - 2015.01.29 12:47:25 -
[13] - Quote
Batman Zur-En-Arrh wrote: So the big question I have is, where would be the best place to look for organized information to help with the memorization aspect?
check public kill-mail reports discard entries with many combatants, and just focus on those with only 2-4 people listed
look at the build that died, check if the killers 'probable' fitting is listed
you'll get a lot of data that way the tricky part will be understanding the data and getting sensible ideas out of it |
Nalia White
Tencus
65
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Posted - 2015.01.29 18:09:52 -
[14] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Justin Zaine wrote: hence the saying that there is no best ship in Eve. Utter bullcrap. The best ship in EvE is the Friendship
and Ishtars even beat that some say
*ducks* |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7210
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Posted - 2015.01.29 18:55:04 -
[15] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Batman Zur-En-Arrh wrote: So the big question I have is, where would be the best place to look for organized information to help with the memorization aspect?
check public kill-mail reports discard entries with many combatants, and just focus on those with only 2-4 people listed look at the build that died (getting blown up doesn't necessarily make it a bad fit), check if the killers 'probable' fitting is listed you'll get a lot of data that way the tricky part will be understanding the data and getting sensible ideas out of it as for visual clues .. active tanks are fairly easy to spot each e-war module has it's own visual effect Kinetic missile/rocket explosions look different to EM explosions Amarr fire rainbows In addition to this... have a willing veteran run through the killmail(s) explaining what each mod does and why.
Eventually you will begin to notice patterns in what makes ship fits "good."
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Iyokus Patrouette
No Vacancies
274
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Posted - 2015.01.29 22:17:35 -
[16] - Quote
If you know who you are about to fight and have the time, you can run their name through z kill or any of those killboard sites and have a look at what they've lost, usually you can expect them to be flying something similar again.
of course this only applies if you have the time waiting for them to engage or you to engage them.
However if you want something to browse over and get ideas and some explanations, there are blogs out there with that sort of thing.
Basic Ship Fitting Theory
Keep in mind that the meta changes fairly quickly and while the information you find is helpful, it may be outdated.
Still it can be a good place to start familarising yourself with things.
The Altruist
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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