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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
806
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Posted - 2015.01.25 05:27:31 -
[31] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:I'd rather not have as many bonuses to individual ships for flying in a fleet. Small gangs are already at a disadvantage for being small. I'd be in support if these ships were like regular command ships, having to fit the same ganglink modules. That way you couldn't stack the effects from these battleships on top of other command bonuses. This makes sense.ShahFluffers wrote:Until warfare links apply only on grid... I'm going to have to say "no" to this idea. As does this.
At a glance the OP is making a solid post and not going too far into "I wish land." I applaud the effort and will be keeping an eye on how this thread refines itself with interest.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
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Catherine Laartii
Perkone Caldari State
471
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Posted - 2015.01.25 08:46:35 -
[32] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote: I updated the OP with new bonuses for them; Gallente one might be adding some fuel to the fire for drones, but I think it would be useful for bigger fights involving fighters and such.
the problem with the gal one is fighters are already able to apply damage to well to sub caps even as small as cruisers as well the last thing we need is Ishtars with better tracking than they had b4 the nerf and the caldari one would get over ridden if some one was using the same warfare link on a T3 or BC thats why i had it as cycle time rather than strength or people would just oped to use the stronger smaller (and no doubt cheaper) one on a command ship However the problem with cycle time is it would force all E-war to use more cap however can change scripts more offten it could could be useful on nuets if you have the cap for it(blood ships would be scary and it may need to not affect nuet/nos for this reason) with ECM you are now in a situation where you get more roles to see if you jam but your jams don't last as long
You made a pretty decent point with the bonuses for the Dragon stepping on the toes of information warfare links; I'm going to replace it a bonus to turret and missile range, which should benefit all sorts of fleet comps quite a bit, comparable to the bonus from the Warhammer. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
578
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Posted - 2015.01.25 09:16:39 -
[33] - Quote
lol again drone tracking 15% on top of the Ishtars base tracking bonus will make it a nightmare
on the dragon a 15% optimal to weapons will be useless on most caldari battle ships as they can already hit past the games hard limit and will make things like the kestrel crow and hawk a nightmare if fit with missiles and forget about hitting a SB if its got this boost and a few damps
there is probably a reason no boosts thus far have given offensive bonuses to things other than E-war
another thing to look at with the dragon is maybe a shield recharge rate it's a state that a lot of people over look in PvP but can give that little boost you need.
(still surprised how well this thread is going)
Fuel block colors
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Catherine Laartii
Perkone Caldari State
471
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Posted - 2015.01.25 10:03:15 -
[34] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:lol again drone tracking 15% on top of the Ishtars base tracking bonus will make it a nightmare on the dragon a 15% optimal to weapons will be useless on most caldari battle ships as they can already hit past the games hard limit and will make things like the kestrel crow and hawk a nightmare if fit with missiles and forget about hitting a SB if its got this boost and a few damps there is probably a reason no boosts thus far have given offensive bonuses to things other than E-war another thing to look at with the dragon is maybe a shield recharge rate it's a state that a lot of people over look in PvP but can give that little boost you need. (still surprised how well this thread is going ) Yeah I've done a lot of lolwut posts in the past over ships that I wanted to see, so I've learned to calm down when I actually want to make a point or talk about something important I want to see.
I get your point about the range, but generally I view the long ranges on rails as an opportunity to fit higher-damage ammo at longer ranges, rather than to hit out to absurdly long range, even though having that as an option is very nice. The line I'm attempting to tread hear for these are unique bonuses that aren't too unbalanced or redundant in relation to warfare links or titan boosts.
Another way to look at their 'place' in relation to command ships would be that command boats are best as squad boosters, these are best for wing boosts, and titans are best for fleet boosts. You can have any of them boosting at any level, but having a neat conceptual progression that goes from small to large like that should both work nicely and *feel* nice for how they're plugged into a fleet. The hellfire's tank and bonuses would make it very popular for armor fleets, with the damnation's options for links, as well as its size and mobility make it more ideal as a flexible squad booster.
The Zeus has a good place with the drone bonuses I think; keeping it to speed and tracking benefits larger drones without unbalancing things too terribly with sentries (15% tracking speed bonus at max for a weapon system designed around sniping shouldn't be too game-breaking). The Hellfire and Warhammer look like they have good bonuses since they're fairly unique, but I'm still scratching my head over what the heck I can use for the Dragon. Your idea with passive regen is interesting and unique, but not at all applicable to PVP settings which these are centered around.
I'm going to sleep on it for a bit, but before I do I'll throw a few ideas for you and everyone else to consider for the Dragon's bonuses specifically: -Reduce turret and missile sig radius -Increase scan resolution -Increase sensor strength
Any of those look good to you? |
Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
477
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Posted - 2015.02.26 02:07:04 -
[35] - Quote
Question here: Does anyone think that the command bonuses for the Zeus should apply to fighters and bombers as well, or just subcap drones? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
979
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Posted - 2015.02.26 02:25:48 -
[36] - Quote
+1 Keep going, still intrigued.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
30
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Posted - 2015.02.26 02:25:59 -
[37] - Quote
I'm a little iffy about the having reduced damage, tanky, probably ignored at the outset of a fight ship being a gang-link bonus ship. They're big and slow, and they don't mesh well with the kinds of ships that benefit from skirmish links, especially in an on grid context.
The ships that I see as the support vessels are those that make fights possible, even if they don't have any direct combat bonuses. In the frigate canon, these would be the exploration ships. Even though they get neither damage nor tanking bonuses, the do have drone bays, and they are essential for probing down hostile squads. (Half of them can also fit a decent hull tank.) In a gang context, they can sport a remote sensor booster, ECCM or tracking computer as easily as a long point since no ships get bonuses to these modules. A helper ship really makes it possible for an insta-locker inty to produce that content.
We wouldn't have any need of off-grid boosters if gang links were a more common module to fit. They would be a great alternative to some of the other utility highslots on many ships with similar fitting requirements. I'd like to see simpler gang-links intended only to boost 10 ships on grid with that pilot, or an even smaller effect that is shared amongst squad members with stacking penalties. Making them more of a common fit component would get more people training leadership skills up to IV at least.
How about instead we divvy up the links based on hull class? Tanking or damage links can go to the slow and lumbering fleet members, while speed and locking related links can go to the more nimble squads. It would make for an interesting new T2 destroyer class, especially if it was bundled in some kind of anti-bomber picket type of ship.
BC class command ships could be divvied up further into those which give resist bonuses and those which bonus remote and local rep links. |
Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
478
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Posted - 2015.02.26 02:38:45 -
[38] - Quote
Lienzo wrote:I'm a little iffy about the having reduced damage, tanky, probably ignored at the outset of a fight ship being a gang-link bonus ship. They're big and slow, and they don't mesh well with the kinds of ships that benefit from skirmish links, especially in an on grid context.
The ships that I see as the support vessels are those that make fights possible, even if they don't have any direct combat bonuses. In the frigate canon, these would be the exploration ships. Even though they get neither damage nor tanking bonuses, the do have drone bays, and they are essential for probing down hostile squads. (Half of them can also fit a decent hull tank.) In a gang context, they can sport a remote sensor booster, ECCM or tracking computer as easily as a long point since no ships get bonuses to these modules. A helper ship really makes it possible for an insta-locker inty to produce that content.
We wouldn't have any need of off-grid boosters if gang links were a more common module to fit. They would be a great alternative to some of the other utility highslots on many ships with similar fitting requirements. I'd like to see simpler gang-links intended only to boost 10 ships on grid with that pilot, or an even smaller effect that is shared amongst squad members with stacking penalties. Making them more of a common fit component would get more people training leadership skills up to IV at least.
How about instead we divvy up the links based on hull class? Tanking or damage links can go to the slow and lumbering fleet members, while speed and locking related links can go to the more nimble squads. It would make for an interesting new T2 destroyer class, especially if it was bundled in some kind of anti-bomber picket type of ship.
BC class command ships could be divvied up further into those which give resist bonuses and those which bonus remote and local rep links. The idea of changing up what class of ships give out what kind of links tickles me. You make an excellent point with having link bonuses apply to and more importantly, FROM ships that are relevant to the types of links being given out. I can see faster ships being in charge of skirmish and information warfare links, and tankier ships like these being in charge of siege and armored warfare links. It also explains the difficulty I have in coming up with appropriate combat links.
That being said, this thread is about boosting t2 tier 3 battlecruisers. Perhaps you could make your own thread about the idea you've raised? Also, what would you think about the idea of these being anti-link ships? I.e. they would lessen the effectiveness of enemy warfare links within a certain radius? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
800
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Posted - 2015.02.26 02:39:41 -
[39] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Question here: Does anyone think that the command bonuses for the Zeus should apply to fighters and bombers as well, or just subcap drones?
fighters the 15% shouldn't be a problem but again this will make sentries even more of a problem when used with already bonused ships
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Lugh Crow-Slave
800
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Posted - 2015.02.26 03:12:05 -
[40] - Quote
Change the caldari one to missiles and the amarr one to projectiles that way all systems are represented and all of them are using their races main weapons.
then i would change the caldari fleet bonus to missile application
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
480
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Posted - 2015.02.26 04:22:57 -
[41] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Change the caldari one to missiles and the amarr one to projectiles that way all systems are represented and all of them are using their races main weapons.
then i would change the caldari fleet bonus to missile application
Not sure about the amarr one using turrets, but I do see it complimenting the Gallente one with drones in that regard. Perhaps giving range and sig reduction bonus to missiles would work well enough... |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
579
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Posted - 2015.02.26 06:47:45 -
[42] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Change the caldari one to missiles and the amarr one to projectiles that way all systems are represented and all of them are using their races main weapons.
then i would change the caldari fleet bonus to missile application
Lugh, dear,
Amarr would use lasers, not projectiles.
Catherine, I'm curious, so I'll keep reading.
signature
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Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
482
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Posted - 2015.02.26 19:23:18 -
[43] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Change the caldari one to missiles and the amarr one to projectiles that way all systems are represented and all of them are using their races main weapons.
then i would change the caldari fleet bonus to missile application
Lugh, dear, Amarr would use lasers, not projectiles. Catherine, I'm curious, so I'll keep reading. I like the current balance for the boosts, but I am concerned about the current boost amount. Command ships boost at 3% per level, and titans boost at 7.5%. Considering that I'm going for a conceptual progression between the two with these, do you think it would be viable to go for a 5% boost per level, or would that be too overpowered? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1935
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Posted - 2015.02.26 21:37:08 -
[44] - Quote
HAC resist profile would not be OP. People are just terrified of BS's having enough EHP to actually justify their use properly. Marauders should always have been given T2 resists, as should Black Ops, it would make them worth their price tag, and would also have made Bastion Mode less compulsory. |
Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
483
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Posted - 2015.02.27 19:53:02 -
[45] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:HAC resist profile would not be OP. People are just terrified of BS's having enough EHP to actually justify their use properly. Marauders should always have been given T2 resists, as should Black Ops, it would make them worth their price tag, and would also have made Bastion Mode less compulsory. I think the issue with applying high resists on battleships isn't with defenses, but with their firepower, i.e. how much dps it takes to bring them down vs how much they can dish out.
A good example for this would be the sleipnir vs the damnation, which I've highlighted as an equivilant between the Warhammer and Hellfire in this instance. The sleip is revered as a solo pwnmobile because it mixes astounding levels of dps and tank while maintaining the essential elements of dmg application with mobility. While battleships certainly aren't considered 'mobile' they apply their damages at excellent ranges, and vessels like the blaster rokh or AC tempest can apply their dps quite well.
The offset comes with their inability to track smaller targets and apply subsequent damage to them. Having a high-resist tank negates this to a degree since something in that setting can shrug off the dps from smaller targets entirely while focusing on the targets it CAN hit. I get how it makes sense from a fleet standpoint to have high resists and high tank, which is why I opted for having the dictor-level resists, since it (in my mind at least) reaches a happy medium between high fleet-level tanks and not being invulnerable to small-arms fire.
That being said, the tank on the hellfire with a HG slave set would reach well over a million ehp. That would be working as intended in that instance, and would be damn interesting to see it applied in a fleet instance. Would you be against swapping its range bonus to logi to an amount bonus? |
Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
483
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Posted - 2015.02.27 20:11:58 -
[46] - Quote
OP has been updated with changes to 5% strength, Zeus boosts getting changed, and a new role bonus for the ships. |
Hairpins Blueprint
CBC Interstellar Fidelas Constans
128
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Posted - 2015.02.28 00:13:14 -
[47] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I am also proposing that this would HAVE to be paired with a nerf to command links which only allows them to boost ships on-grid. I would not support these ships or ships like it being introduced until current command links are balanced, and ONLY apply on-grid with the ship boosting them. Keep that in mind with their role bonus.
[
And what we do wit T3's warfare subsyetems? just blop to the trashcan? insted just make it imposible to turn on links to close to the forcefield 20km+ from the force field (just like cyno inhibitor) and give links weapon timers so they can't just pleasure thems selfs on station undock.
bom Problem gone, now we can kill all the links \\\o/// |
Hairpins Blueprint
CBC Interstellar Fidelas Constans
128
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Posted - 2015.02.28 00:15:45 -
[48] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote: DRAGON t2 Rokh, ishukone manufacturer
8/7/4 slot layout, 8 turret slots
Caldari Battleship skill: 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret optimal range per level, 4% bonus to shield resists per level
Heavy Command Ship skill: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level, 5% increase in fleet members' turret optimal range and missile velocity per level
ZEUS t2 Hyperion, Roden manufacturer
7/5/7 slot layout, 6 turret slots
Gallente Battleship skill: 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level, 7.5% bonus to Large Armor Repair amount per level
Heavy Command Ship skill: 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level, 5% increase in fleet members' sensor resolution and targeting range per level
HELLFIRE t2 Abaddon, Khanid manufacturer
8/4/7 slot layout, 8 launcher slots
Amarr Battleship skill: 10% bonus to Torpedo, Cruise, and Heavy missile velocity 4% bonus to armor resists per level
Heavy Command Ship skill: 10% bonus to armor amount per level, 5% bonus to fleet members' transfer array range per level
WARHAMMER T2 Maelstrom, Core Complexion manufacturer
8/6/5 slot layout, 8 turret slots
Minmatar Battleship skill: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire per level, 7.5% bonus to Shield Booster repair amount per level
Heavy Command Ship skill: 7.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret tracking speed per level, 5% reduction to fleet members' module heat damage taken per level
.
i was thinking lik e titan links? insted of 7,5% per level give them 4% per lvl!? Caldari shield HP/Amarr armour HP etc ect?
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Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
485
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Posted - 2015.02.28 04:28:35 -
[49] - Quote
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote: DRAGON t2 Rokh, ishukone manufacturer
8/7/4 slot layout, 8 turret slots
Caldari Battleship skill: 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret optimal range per level, 4% bonus to shield resists per level
Heavy Command Ship skill: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level, 5% increase in fleet members' turret optimal range and missile velocity per level
ZEUS t2 Hyperion, Roden manufacturer
7/5/7 slot layout, 6 turret slots
Gallente Battleship skill: 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level, 7.5% bonus to Large Armor Repair amount per level
Heavy Command Ship skill: 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level, 5% increase in fleet members' sensor resolution and targeting range per level
HELLFIRE t2 Abaddon, Khanid manufacturer
8/4/7 slot layout, 8 launcher slots
Amarr Battleship skill: 10% bonus to Torpedo, Cruise, and Heavy missile velocity 4% bonus to armor resists per level
Heavy Command Ship skill: 10% bonus to armor amount per level, 5% bonus to fleet members' transfer array range per level
WARHAMMER T2 Maelstrom, Core Complexion manufacturer
8/6/5 slot layout, 8 turret slots
Minmatar Battleship skill: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire per level, 7.5% bonus to Shield Booster repair amount per level
Heavy Command Ship skill: 7.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret tracking speed per level, 5% reduction to fleet members' module heat damage taken per level
.
i was thinking lik e titan links? insted of 7,5% per level give them 4% per lvl!? Caldari shield HP/Amarr armour HP etc ect? That's the idea with the passive boosts, yes. The thing to remember is not doubling up on the same bonuses, and making it a bit less strong since they're battleships and not capitals. Auxilary bonuses like head reduction and logi range help out quite a bit in a variety of settings, so they should be very useful. |
Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
485
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Posted - 2015.02.28 04:29:57 -
[50] - Quote
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:
I am also proposing that this would HAVE to be paired with a nerf to command links which only allows them to boost ships on-grid. I would not support these ships or ships like it being introduced until current command links are balanced, and ONLY apply on-grid with the ship boosting them. Keep that in mind with their role bonus.
[
And what we do wit T3's warfare subsyetems? just blop to the trashcan? insted just make it imposible to turn on links to close to the forcefield 20km+ from the force field (just like cyno inhibitor) and give links weapon timers so they can't just pleasure thems selfs on station undock. bom Problem gone, now we can kill all the links \\\o/// Having on-grid links means that whatever's on field is there to be combat-fit and help with the fleet, not hid away somewhere for boosting. It's how the game SHOULD work, but doesn't. |
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Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2015.02.28 10:02:55 -
[51] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote: DRAGON t2 Rokh, ishukone manufacturer
8/7/4 slot layout, 8 turret slots
ZEUS t2 Hyperion, Roden manufacturer
7/5/7 slot layout, 6 turret slots
HELLFIRE t2 Abaddon, Khanid manufacturer
8/4/7 slot layout, 8 launcher slots
WARHAMMER T2 Maelstrom, Core Complexion manufacturer
8/6/5 slot layout, 8 turret slots
Why Gallente ship has only 7 highs and 6 turrets when the others get 8 slots and 8 guns? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
998
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Posted - 2015.02.28 15:08:47 -
[52] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:Why Gallente ship has only 7 highs and 6 turrets when the others get 8 slots and 8 guns? More drones?
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2015.02.28 22:27:27 -
[53] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Atomeon wrote:Why Gallente ship has only 7 highs and 6 turrets when the others get 8 slots and 8 guns? More drones?
I dont see a drone bonus nor a drone bay size.
I also dont see at least 3 high slots as utility slot so ppl forced to use them as boosters instead of 8 slots of turrets and launchers. With the current layout they will be used as damage dealers and not as boosters. |
Sinigr Shadowsong
Monkey Attack Squad Goonswarm Federation
134
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Posted - 2015.02.28 23:12:55 -
[54] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:
HELLFIRE t2 Abaddon, Khanid manufacturer
8/4/7 slot layout, 8 launcher slots
Amarr Battleship skill: 10% bonus to Torpedo, Cruise, and Heavy missile velocity 4% bonus to armor resists per level
Heavy Command Ship skill: 10% bonus to armor amount per level, 5% bonus to fleet members' transfer array range per level
ROLE BONUS: 10% bonus to boosted ship command link effectiveness. (total, not per level)
Seems like too much tank. Both resistance and armor HP bonuses are very powerfull by itself, combining them with Amarr T2 resist profile (no EXP hole) and generous 7 low slots will make this ship increadibly tanky. As a subcap it can't be DDed so just mix some remote repair and it will become virtually unkillable. Also it's combined bonus to 25% repair range and 50% missile range bonus will allow Hellfire to sit safely away from battle and provide both DPS assist and probably of the best fleet bonuses in the game. Do RR really needs a buff? |
Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
485
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 00:19:54 -
[55] - Quote
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:
HELLFIRE t2 Abaddon, Khanid manufacturer
8/4/7 slot layout, 8 launcher slots
Amarr Battleship skill: 10% bonus to Torpedo, Cruise, and Heavy missile velocity 4% bonus to armor resists per level
Heavy Command Ship skill: 10% bonus to armor amount per level, 5% bonus to fleet members' transfer array range per level
ROLE BONUS: 10% bonus to boosted ship command link effectiveness. (total, not per level)
Seems like too much tank. Both resistance and armor HP bonuses are very powerfull by itself, combining them with Amarr T2 resist profile (no EXP hole) and generous 7 low slots will make this ship increadibly tanky. As a subcap it can't be DDed so just mix some remote repair and it will become virtually unkillable. Also it's combined bonus to 25% repair range and 50% missile range bonus will allow Hellfire to sit safely away from battle and provide both DPS assist and probably of the best fleet bonuses in the game. Do RR really needs a buff?
It doesn't have command ship level resists; it has dictor-level resists, so while it'll have more hp than a Damnation, it'll have lower resists. It will also have a significantly larger sig radius and be very slow, so it's not exactly indestructible, especially considering that unless it's getting titan boosts, it won't be getting ehp boosts like armored warfare links since it'll be boosting the command ships beneath it.
In regards to logistics, this is an increase to range, not amount. This is not an issue since sensor damps are an excellent counter to logi that's spread apart, and bombs are a good counter to logi grouped together. Giving pilots in a fleet more room to move around has quite a few advantages, but doesn't translate to a straight buff since there are already plenty of counters. |
Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
485
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 00:24:52 -
[56] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Atomeon wrote:Why Gallente ship has only 7 highs and 6 turrets when the others get 8 slots and 8 guns? More drones? I dont see a drone bonus nor a drone bay size. I also dont see at least 3 high slots as utility slot so ppl forced to use them as boosters instead of 8 slots of turrets and launchers. With the current layout they will be used as damage dealers and not as boosters.
The hyperion has a 10% dmg bonus to its hybrids, and puts out quite a bit of dps. The boosts these ships give out are passively operated like titans, and need no links fit to the ship itself to work. This also allows them, as you stated, do function in more of a direct combat role than an armchair fleet booster. |
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