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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29810
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:55:08 -
[631] - Quote
turning into? or is
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Thok'ra Brakis
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
4
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Posted - 2015.02.11 15:58:25 -
[632] - Quote
Personally, I also think that skillpoints add little to the game besides making you feel like having to readjust them constantly. As for implants, I think they should stay. Skill learning speeds being baseline is fine for me because it allows to branch out at will, but being able to speed up certain things via implants is a good way of improving, optimizing and customizing your character.
However, I'm not a seasoned player, so I might see some things a little wrong. |
Wobblypops
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.02.11 20:06:39 -
[633] - Quote
Attribute implants have to go they're ******* stupid. Just let people play the damn game make all base attributes the same for everyone. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1574
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Posted - 2015.02.11 20:09:33 -
[634] - Quote
Why is 6635 not beside 6636? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29825
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Posted - 2015.02.12 00:59:33 -
[635] - Quote
Because by SP and born date, 7, 8, and 9 are the core of rainfleet. Seemed a more symmetrical arrangement.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
222
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Posted - 2015.02.12 07:04:50 -
[636] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Make in-station clone jumps zero cooldown. Problem solved, everyone can use their +5 sets and PVP sets. Simple solutions are best solutions.
"...genre is a definition, the definition in itself must have boundaries, the boundaries act as barriers, and the barriers are like walls, like the walls of a prisonn++..."
The Good, The Bad and The Bantam
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Jishi Padecain
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2015.02.12 07:39:20 -
[637] - Quote
We really need a way to jump into clones in the same station without a cooldown. Even allow us to store several clones in a single station. Being able to hop in and out of clones with learning implants and into combat implants would be nice.
Want to move around a lot and be a mobile operation/fighter? Then you'll have to choose which implants you want to roll in.
Want to be able to swap clones more often and have more options? Then you'll have to settle into a smaller area of operations.
Just a quickly thought out idea. Whatever ends up happening with this whole thing though we need to retain the ability to make choices with each one having an upside and a downside. |
Kaely Tanniss
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
254
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Posted - 2015.02.12 07:46:15 -
[638] - Quote
Wobblypops wrote:Attribute implants have to go they're ******* stupid. Just let people play the damn game make all base attributes the same for everyone.
Just because you don't like something or don't understand something doesn't make it stupid. Implants serve a purpose. They have benefits and drwbacks such as risk. If CCP keeps removing the risk factor of the game, it will lose the very core of what the majority of players play it for. If you're afraid to lose implants, don't fit them. Or grind you way to jc's and have an empty clone you can jump to. I, for one, like the implants. They make a charcter customizable and unique. If all chars are the same..what's the point. Eve is supposed to be complex. Eve is supposed to have risk at every turn. Eve is for those that can hack it..and not everyone can hack it. The biggest mistake, imo, that CCP can make is to change the game so much in an attept at a money grab, that they ruin what made it so great to begin with. Eve doesn't need to be "dumbed down"..players need to "smarten up".
If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
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Memphis Baas
146
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Posted - 2015.02.12 12:29:28 -
[639] - Quote
*snip* nevermind, sorry. |
Celestia Via
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
49
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Posted - 2015.02.12 12:59:55 -
[640] - Quote
Thok'ra Brakis wrote:Personally, I also think that skillpoints add little to the game besides making you feel like having to readjust them constantly. As for implants, I think they should stay. Skill learning speeds being baseline is fine for me because it allows to branch out at will, but being able to speed up certain things via implants is a good way of improving, optimizing and customizing your character.
However, I'm not a seasoned player, so I might see some things a little wrong.
taking implants away does not necessarily mean you wont be able to speed up certain things in other ways, for example, having more skillpoints to distribute would be an easy workaround. And thats only to appease those who would feel cheated out of their extra points, I dont feel that way since actual learning speed is irrelevant, the point is in it being fair, ie the same for everyone. (same refers to the total pool of skillpoints, not actual learning speed, that would be against variety and customization)
learning implants are not really customization, they're just a one-way road of paying some isk to get a flat bonus, a mundane and sterile process everyone has to go through with every new clone.
Think of it this way : Skillpoints/day actually represent the game time you pay for. As it is now, the top learning implants cost a good deal of ISK, making them unavailable to newer players. I find this unfair, since people rich in ISK get more value for their real money (more SP/hour). And even that can be debated, since I myself for example, have bought the expensive ones but the clone that wears them hardly sees any use just because of its high value. My choice of course but i doubt anyone in their right mind would put a billion isk clone at (casual) risk.
Skill remaps actually are customization, they reflect the choices one makes of what skills to train and when, and how to better achieve their goals. I would support more remaps being available, one/year is very restricting.
There's no place like space
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Sir Substance
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
678
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Posted - 2015.02.12 13:40:45 -
[641] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Make in-station clone jumps zero cooldown. Problem solved, everyone can use their +5 sets and PVP sets. Simple solutions are best solutions. You can't have two JC's in the same station. If you try it by installing one JC, JC'ing away, flying back to the station and JCing to a third JC, the second JC will overwrite the first.
The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex
Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
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Posted - 2015.02.12 13:51:44 -
[642] - Quote
Sir Substance wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Make in-station clone jumps zero cooldown. Problem solved, everyone can use their +5 sets and PVP sets. Simple solutions are best solutions. You can't have two JC's in the same station. If you try it by installing one JC, JC'ing away, flying back to the station and JCing to a third JC, the second JC will overwrite the first.
Perhaps we could make jump-cloning on-par with jump fatigue? As in, a sliding scale where the further you jump, the more fatigue you get before you can jump back? Within same star system = no fatigue, and from there, determine fatigue by number of jumps.
We could re-purpose the useless "informorph synchronizing" skill to provide a 5% per level reduction in the amount of jump clone fatigue you generate.
Frankly the hard rule of 24 hours seems needless and arbitrary to me, and that would alleviate a lot of problems that people have been bringing up.
HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch.
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Leannor
Central Builders Incorporated Northern Associates.
110
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Posted - 2015.02.12 13:59:52 -
[643] - Quote
Sir Substance wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Make in-station clone jumps zero cooldown. Problem solved, everyone can use their +5 sets and PVP sets. Simple solutions are best solutions. You can't have two JC's in the same station. If you try it by installing one JC, JC'ing away, flying back to the station and JCing to a third JC, the second JC will overwrite the first.
pretty sure the implcation was to also enable in station jump cloning as well.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
127
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Posted - 2015.02.12 16:26:24 -
[644] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:We have hostile fleets roaming through Deklein on an hourly basis. Most of those hostile fleets are interceptors- If we want to fight them and be competitive, we generally would need to fly smaller ships to be able to brawl. ... If we wanted to go brawl with those interceptors, we would probably be flying a ship that is several times less valuable than our clone. A couple of years ago most roaming fleets were battlecruisers. They were more expensive and far easier to catch. The risks were real. The stakes were high. The roams were fun.
I dont fly roams often now. Less destruction, less consumption, and stuff.
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
224
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Posted - 2015.02.12 16:36:06 -
[645] - Quote
Sir Substance wrote:You can't have two JC's in the same station. If you try it by installing one JC, JC'ing away, flying back to the station and JCing to a third JC, the second JC will overwrite the first. We can't now, maybe it's worth consideration to change it.
"...genre is a definition, the definition in itself must have boundaries, the boundaries act as barriers, and the barriers are like walls, like the walls of a prisonn++..."
The Good, The Bad and The Bantam
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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
105
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Posted - 2015.02.12 16:57:25 -
[646] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Sir Substance wrote:You can't have two JC's in the same station. If you try it by installing one JC, JC'ing away, flying back to the station and JCing to a third JC, the second JC will overwrite the first. We can't now, maybe it's worth consideration to change it.
I can't claim to know this as a fact, but I suspect this is due to limitations within the legacy code, and the work required to fix it would be far beyond a "little fix".
Just guessing based upon previous conversations I've seen where "spaghetti code" was the reason things were the way they were.
HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29833
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Posted - 2015.02.12 17:03:31 -
[647] - Quote
multiple clones in the same station would be nice too.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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UberFly
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2015.02.12 18:04:46 -
[648] - Quote
I'd much rather scrap the attribute/remap mechanic than have to juggle more JCs. Either way, you are making it so people can get the max SP/hr and still PVP. Changing the jump timer would also negate the force projection changes that CCP made. Pilots would just have multiple clones in multiple stations as a way to avoid fatigue while still jumping all the way across the universe. |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
935
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Posted - 2015.02.12 19:25:33 -
[649] - Quote
Kaely Tanniss wrote: Implants serve a purpose. They have benefits and drwbacks such as risk. If CCP keeps removing the risk factor of the game, it will lose the very core of what the majority of players play it for. If you're afraid to lose implants, don't fit them.
Note that learning implants provide greater reasons for risk-averse behavior than types that provide benefit for ship pilots. If you want to incentivize players risking valuable implants, the best you can do are implants that directly improve the experience of undocking in your ship. The worst you can do are implants that are just as effective even when you're logged-off.
It still seems to me that removing the concept of implants that speed skill training would increase people's willingness to spend money on implants that provide benefits to piloting a ship, and then undocking with those implants, thereby risking them.
Of course, as stated in my prior posts, I am not on the team developing this feature. I'm just offering these thoughts to contribute to the conversation.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
377
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Posted - 2015.02.12 19:28:34 -
[650] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote: Note that learning implants provide greater rewards for risk-averse behavior than types that provide benefit for ship pilots. If you want to incentivize players risking valuable implants, the best you can do are implants that directly improve the experience of undocking in your ship. The worst you can do are implants that are just as effective even when you're logged-off.
It still seems to me that removing the concept of implants that speed skill training would increase people's willingness to spend money on implants that provide benefits to piloting a ship, and then undocking with those implants, thereby risking them.
Of course, as stated in my prior posts, I am not on the team developing this feature. I'm just offering these thoughts to contribute to the conversation.
This- it's pointless to add value to a risk assessment based on an item that does not directly impact whatever you are undocking in. |
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UberFly
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2015.02.12 19:32:19 -
[651] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote: Note that learning implants provide greater rewards for risk-averse behavior than types that provide benefit for ship pilots. If you want to incentivize players risking valuable implants, the best you can do are implants that directly improve the experience of undocking in your ship. The worst you can do are implants that are just as effective even when you're logged-off.
It still seems to me that removing the concept of implants that speed skill training would increase people's willingness to spend money on implants that provide benefits to piloting a ship, and then undocking with those implants, thereby risking them.
Of course, as stated in my prior posts, I am not on the team developing this feature. I'm just offering these thoughts to contribute to the conversation.
Mr Omniblivion wrote: This- it's pointless to add value to a risk assessment based on an item that does not directly impact whatever you are undocking in.
QFT +1 |
Jane Shapperd
SUPERFLUOUS WANDERLUST Gentlemen's.Club
88
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Posted - 2015.02.12 19:36:14 -
[652] - Quote
So what is this the argument for removing attribute / learning implants ?
- remove them so people will pvp more ? No care bears will not pvp and they will find another excuse to not pvp
- Learning implants doesn't give players a choice. Yes they do and they give lots of choices you could get plus 5 train faster ,but if u lose u lose a lot. You could get plus 4 train slower than +5 but don't lose as much , etc
- Newbies doesnt know how to save their pod / the importance of implants well they ******* should read or ask other to find out why implants are important we are were newbies and we all did our research to find out what implants are for .
- CCP I wanna train faster but i want to pvp you have two choices ******* pvp in your training implants you risk a lot, but you keep training and there is no cool down timer or jump clone your implants gonna be safe , but you don't train as fast and u have a jump clone timer |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
377
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Posted - 2015.02.12 19:41:22 -
[653] - Quote
Jane Shapperd wrote:blah blah blah
Your arguments are quite stupid, see my earlier post.
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Jane Shapperd
SUPERFLUOUS WANDERLUST Gentlemen's.Club
88
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Posted - 2015.02.12 19:46:34 -
[654] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Jane Shapperd wrote:blah blah blah blah blah blah
they may not impact what u are flying directly but they do impact your performance in whatever you're training which will greatly impact what u are undocking or planning to undock . |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
377
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Posted - 2015.02.12 19:59:13 -
[655] - Quote
Jane Shapperd wrote:they may not impact what u are flying directly but they do impact your performance in whatever you're training which will greatly impact what u are undocking or planning to undock .
The problem is that this is not the case in the majority of scenarios.
People generally do not get level 1 command ship and undock in their Damnation while the rest of the skills train. As mentioned earlier, one extra level of a 2% or 5% damage skill would hardly change any fight in eve on the grand scale. The vast majority of combat in eve is not 1v1, so a slight difference in skills as such would have no real impact.
Therefore, you're hurting newer players more by forcing them to maintain expensive implants, when they don't have ISK for it, to be able to train the basic skills they need to even be able to undock in most ships- not to mention fly them "well". People that are making your argument seem to forget that new players have a plethora of support skills that they must train before they can fly anything remotely close to competitive (except for gimmicky fits in fleet fights, which however do work well).
The vast majority of older players have enough money to purchase a pilot with the exact skills they are looking for- or close to it. A new player must grind out huge amounts of support skills that are frankly boring and don't contribute to keeping players in the game.
This isn't WoW where there needs to be a grind from 1-(whatever level is max now). People should be able to jump into Eve, the Spaceship Sandbox Game and be able to fly competitively and try out new things within reasonable amounts of time. Skills are a side note to the actual force in this game- consumption. Skill training times are a roadblock to consumption that needs to be redefined. Removing flat attribute implants and leveling out that bonus as base attribute points would go a long way towards a positive change- especially for new players. |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
937
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Posted - 2015.02.12 20:03:01 -
[656] - Quote
Jane Shapperd wrote:So what is this the argument for removing attribute / learning implants ?
To be fair, the discussion is really about removing attributes, remaps, and bonuses from implants to attributes. Learning implants are part of the picture but not the biggest part.
Quote:- remove them so people will pvp more ? No care bears will not pvp and they will find another excuse to not pvp
Increasing willingness to PvP with implants plugged-in would be a nice outcome, but it's not really the core reason for the proposal.
Quote:- Learning implants doesn't give players a choice. Yes they do and they give lots of choices you could get plus 5 train faster ,but if u lose u lose a lot. You could get plus 4 train slower than +5 but don't lose as much , etc
The problem isn't that attributes don't provide choice, the problem is that the choices do not have meaning. Let's say you have a desire to do a thing in game, like fly Logistics. As it turns out, training those skills optimally requires going deep into int/mem, training out ALL your support skills, then remapping to per/will and training out ALL your ship skills.
Without attributes, you would probably be training a little support and a little from ship skill categories so that you could get started quickly and improve as you play, but attributes provide what amounts to a large skill point reward for training things in a nonsensical order that makes you wait to play the game.
The current concept represented in the game today might be better if attributes mapped more cleanly to functional roles in EVE, but remember that even taking attributes out entirely and having a flat skill training speed wouldn't remove that choice of how to specialize. You still would have to train skills in an order that gets you somewhere you want to be, and the most efficient way to do that would be to train for the thing you'd like to do.
Quote:- Newbies doesnt know how to save their pod / the importance of implants well they ******* should read or ask other to find out why implants are important we are were newbies and we all did our research to find out what implants are for .
As my last post pointed out, if anything players would be more likely to risk a valuable pod without learning implants, because the alternatives (both currently existing hardwiring implants and maybe something new too) would reward not just using the implants, but flying ships while using them.
Quote:- CCP I wanna train faster but i want to pvp you have two choices ******* pvp in your training implants you risk a lot, but you keep training and there is no cool down timer or jump clone your implants gonna be safe , but you don't train as fast and u have a jump clone timer
It's also worth being clear that the idea behind removing attributes is about simplifying a current system that provides muddy and counterproductive incentives, where you spend a lot of money to speed up your training and after that skill training choices feel bad, because every path in the game requires training numerous skills for which you have the wrong remap and possibly wrong implants too.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Memphis Baas
151
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Posted - 2015.02.12 20:38:55 -
[657] - Quote
Perhaps one way to buy the cake and eat it too would be to:
- get rid of attributes and simplify the skill training system with a flat training rate regardless of what skill is trained
- introduce implants that give a generic "Faster Skill Training" 2%, 3%, whatever the equivalent is when you take the current +1, +3, and +5 implants and recalculate their actual SP/hr bonus.
That way CCP gets the simpler server-side code, and everyone who wants "choice" gets to make the decision whether to plug in "Faster Skill Training".
Of course we will still have the "I'm not going to undock because I have these 5% implants plugged in" issue. |
Tiffany 'Tiffs' Succeed
Republic University Minmatar Republic
48
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Posted - 2015.02.12 20:41:22 -
[658] - Quote
Thank you for this post. It shows that people at CCP, which includes you, are really putting a lot of thought behind what they are doing.
I just read your other post as well. I hope you share your thoughts with the colleages as well ... ... because you made a very smart, insightfull post up there, you know? |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
863
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Posted - 2015.02.12 20:43:44 -
[659] - Quote
Celgar Thurn wrote:Apparently CCP/ the CSM are debating removing attribute points and the learning implants from the game. I would like to raise the following issues with this possible action:
I would argue that too many revenue ideas have been removed or made uneconomic already.
CCP has been on continual crusade to eliminate income. Why stop them now?
CCP .. always first with the wrong stuff
CSM .. CCP Shills with a vacation plan
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
944
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Posted - 2015.02.12 21:00:19 -
[660] - Quote
Celgar Thurn wrote:Apparently CCP/ the CSM are debating removing attribute points and the learning implants from the game. I would like to raise the following issues with this possible action:
I would argue that too many revenue ideas have been removed or made uneconomic already.
The game designers working on this have made clear that economic considerations related to this proposal are a significant concern and need a good solution.
(Once again, I'm not one of them.)
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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