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Dread Delgarth
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
56
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Posted - 2015.01.26 11:35:23 -
[1] - Quote
After the Caldari's heroic defence of Hasmijaala a few weeks ago I must admit I expected to see a lot more resistance in Kinakka to try and hold the system. What happened to their resolve? Full credit to the brave Caldari capsuleers who did try to hold out but it seems that without the hordes of Concordiat behind them the CaldarI are powerless. I have it on good authority that these null bears find it funny that Calmil can't hold systems without their help.
Will the likes of Mira Devorsha put up with alliance bro's whose only real interest in FW is as a cash cow to fund misplaced null sec aspirations? One bright spot to appear from the Kinakka campaign for the Caldari is the emergence of a newfound propaganda spokesman currently operating under the banner of I-Red. His audio report on the campaign is well worth a listen. :)) |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
715
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Posted - 2015.01.26 12:50:33 -
[2] - Quote
I generally saw more HECON, Bloc and TEMPLIS than I did HONOR pilots. I get the feeling that the HONOR folks are just following in the TEST tradition - come in, use CalMil like an LP ATM, then bugger off to null to do whatever it is they're doing. It's sad that they won't sack up and live in the warzone proper.
I really don't understand why GHIOT decided to join them, though I guess there's a lot of CalMil corps that traditionally have had strong ties to null.
Hate to say it, but the fact that FW is so lucrative for folks who can safely base out of high sec really attracts the wrong crowd sometimes.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
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Arla Sarain
258
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Posted - 2015.01.26 13:36:26 -
[3] - Quote
Dread Delgarth wrote:without the hordes As opposed to the gallente mass which in no way can have parallels drawn to a zerg? |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1323
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Posted - 2015.01.26 13:49:28 -
[4] - Quote
Caldari Militia's Official Announcement. |
Dread Delgarth
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
56
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Posted - 2015.01.26 14:33:09 -
[5] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Dread Delgarth wrote:without the hordes As opposed to the gallente mass which in no way can have parallels drawn to a zerg?
Although numbers don't count for everything I would argue that they're the biggest influence on a successful offense or defence of a system. Instead of helping their Caldari bretherin Spaceship Samurai (excluding Mira and Great Harmon) would rather float around in null sec shooting sov blockade units for hours on end in Talwars then have anice actual fight in FW! |
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Hoplite Brigade
58
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Posted - 2015.01.26 15:14:10 -
[6] - Quote
If any of the Gallente corps are looking for a more evenly matched contest the Minmatar Militia would appreciate anyone wanting to do a stint with the TLF. The Amarr are pretty active and not scared of a fight whilst the Minnie's only have 3 or 4 entities able to or actively putting significant numbers on field. |
Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
136
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Posted - 2015.01.26 15:43:07 -
[7] - Quote
omg, Valentine Dyall is in cal mil.
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
715
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Posted - 2015.01.26 16:23:44 -
[8] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Dread Delgarth wrote:without the hordes As opposed to the gallente mass which in no way can have parallels drawn to a zerg? We prefer the term "Voltron."
In generally, GalMil as a whole seems to have better EUTZ dominance, where CalMil really gets rolling in late USTZ. We've both got to deal with being outnumbered in various TZs...
... even though GalMil tends to keep slugging it out when outnumbered on more occassions than we see CalMil step up
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2768
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Posted - 2015.01.26 18:03:46 -
[9] - Quote
I propose all warzone updates be done like this one from here on out.
JUSTK is recruiting.
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Christine Peeveepeeski
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
702
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Posted - 2015.01.26 21:50:20 -
[10] - Quote
Poor kinakka.
Rooting for you Caldari bro's! |
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
715
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Posted - 2015.01.26 21:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:If any of the Gallente corps are looking for a more evenly matched contest the Minmatar Militia would appreciate anyone wanting to do a stint with the TLF. The Amarr are pretty active and not scared of a fight whilst the Minnie's only have 3 or 4 entities able to or actively putting significant numbers on field. Take back Huola so we can access our massive stores of Derptrons and we'll talk.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
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Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
66
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Posted - 2015.01.27 00:31:29 -
[12] - Quote
Kinakka was only a notional 'home' system so comparisons with Hasmijala are unwarranted. When the guys who 'live' there aren't deployed in the warzone and don't get involved in defending the system you can hardly expect everyone else to put up a full-scale defence. I don't think any defence fleets were formed until it hit 80% contested, which should give you an idea of how serious the militia as a whole were about defending this system. That's not to say we didn't want it , though. We want all the systems but in the absence of a group actually living there this one wasn't a great priority.
On another note, you may have noticed there was no CalMil brag thread after you got pounded for three weeks in Hasmijala. Just sayin' ... |
Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
66
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Posted - 2015.01.27 00:41:15 -
[13] - Quote
Dread Delgarth wrote:After the Caldari's heroic defence of Hasmijaala a few weeks ago I must admit I expected to see a lot more resistance in Kinakka to try and hold the system. What happened to their resolve? Full credit to the brave Caldari capsuleers who did try to hold out but it seems that without the hordes of Concordiat behind them the CaldarI are powerless. I have it on good authority that these null bears find it funny that Calmil can't hold systems without their help.
As you know, 'the hordes of Concordiat' didn't have much to do with the defence of Hasmijala. Kinakka, on the other hand, was Concordiat's system, so congratulations, I guess, on taking a system who's residents weren't there. I can understand why you need to shout about it after your recent pummelling |
Yuri Antollare
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
108
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Posted - 2015.01.27 03:37:08 -
[14] - Quote
Epikurus wrote: On another note, you may have noticed there was no CalMil brag thread after you got pounded for three weeks in Hasmijala. Just sayin' ...
Probably because too many squids have access to a killboard of some descript.
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Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
66
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Posted - 2015.01.27 09:35:36 -
[15] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:Epikurus wrote: On another note, you may have noticed there was no CalMil brag thread after you got pounded for three weeks in Hasmijala. Just sayin' ...
Probably because too many squids have access to a killboard of some descript.
GalMil vs CalMil efficiency in Hasmijala was 55%. That's hardly earthshaking. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1330
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Posted - 2015.01.27 09:41:23 -
[16] - Quote
Epikurus wrote:Yuri Antollare wrote:Epikurus wrote: On another note, you may have noticed there was no CalMil brag thread after you got pounded for three weeks in Hasmijala. Just sayin' ...
Probably because too many squids have access to a killboard of some descript. GalMil vs CalMil efficiency in Hasmijala was 55%. That's hardly earthshaking.
You fail to consider that caldari progress in the occupancy war has been almost completely stalled.
We take Kinakka, you take... ahem... akidagi lol. |
Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
66
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Posted - 2015.01.27 09:52:04 -
[17] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: You fail to consider that caldari progress in the occupancy war has been almost completely stalled.
We take Kinakka, you take... ahem... akidagi lol.
Ooh - we took akidagi? Nice! |
Silverbackyererse
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
122
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Posted - 2015.01.27 11:52:03 -
[18] - Quote
We is officially adding Galmil to Uncle Chop Chops's list.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sry7JYV1U24
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Trey Kutoi
The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Spaceship Samurai
44
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Posted - 2015.01.27 13:20:05 -
[19] - Quote
Epikurus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: You fail to consider that caldari progress in the occupancy war has been almost completely stalled.
We take Kinakka, you take... ahem... akidagi lol.
Ooh - we took akidagi? Nice!
then suddenly sansha |
Yuri Antollare
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
108
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Posted - 2015.01.27 15:22:24 -
[20] - Quote
Epikurus wrote:Yuri Antollare wrote:Epikurus wrote: On another note, you may have noticed there was no CalMil brag thread after you got pounded for three weeks in Hasmijala. Just sayin' ...
Probably because too many squids have access to a killboard of some descript. GalMil vs CalMil efficiency in Hasmijala was 55%. That's hardly earthshaking.
http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=2806,2806,2806,2806,2806,2806,2806,2806&b=6311520,6314400,6317280,6320160,6323040,6325920,6328800,6331680&e=2879,2879,2879,2879,2879,2879,2879,1439&t=bOwzGOkAHgHPybaiaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaq&r=1
I'll show you mine if you show me yours?
Scrolling through the class summary page there's a fairly heavy pattern of some very unfavourable head to head loss matchups, a few fun facts.
200+ Galmill sniper corms were lost, in exchange over 400 Calmill sniper corms were destroyed.
For the loss of 49 of our proud Vexors, and 14 T1 logi that bravely followed them, Calmill lost in excess of 140 T1 cruisers.
In total, Galmill put 2280 ships on to the field, 1650 of those never came home. In comparison Calmill managed an impressive 2942 ships, 2365 of which were destroyed (holy jump freighter!)
The numbers alone are impressive, then you have to consider you were on the defensive, with a two jump buffer, and with slightly more people than the attackers
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Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
67
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Posted - 2015.01.27 16:15:30 -
[21] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=2806,2806,2806,2806,2806,2806,2806,2806&b=6311520,6314400,6317280,6320160,6323040,6325920,6328800,6331680&e=2879,2879,2879,2879,2879,2879,2879,1439&t=bOwzGOkAHgHPybaiaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaq&r=1 I'll show you mine if you show me yours? Scrolling through the class summary page there's a fairly heavy pattern of some very unfavourable head to head loss matchups, a few fun facts. 200+ Galmill sniper corms were lost, in exchange over 400 Calmill sniper corms were destroyed. For the loss of 49 of our proud Vexors, and 14 T1 logi that bravely followed them, Calmill lost in excess of 140 T1 cruisers. In total, Galmill put 2280 ships on to the field, 1650 of those never came home. In comparison Calmill managed an impressive 2942 ships, 2365 of which were destroyed (holy jump freighter!) The numbers alone are impressive, then you have to consider you were on the defensive, with a two jump buffer, and with slightly more people than the attackers
Edit - the BR I'm using is the one provided by Andre Vauban in the comments here: http://www.factionwarfare.com/the-battle-for-hasmijaala-rages-on/#comment-781. It seems to be the same as the one you link.
First step is to correct the report by removing RAZOR, Doomguards, State War Academy and UCF from the Caldari column and Vikings of Valhalla from the Gallente column.
Next step is to ignore the inaccurate headline figures and look in the class summary. There we see that Gallente losses were 27.25 bil to Caldari losses of 34.66, which amounts to roughly 44% of the losses on the Gallente side and 56% on the Caldari side. So, yes, you can (cherry-) pick out individual ship classes and talk about the number of ships if you like, but that ignores the value of the ships and their comparative power. While that level of efficiency shows a definite qualitative advantage, it is a small one and hardly sufficient to make up for the loss of the strategic objective.
Quote:slightly more people than the attackers
The numbers were pretty much perfectly even once the BR is corrected: 423 vs 437 |
Christine Peeveepeeski
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
702
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Posted - 2015.01.27 17:48:55 -
[22] - Quote
/Munches popcorn
From up here on my unassailable logic perch it looks like caldari win because they aren't gallente. Furthermore those stats clearly back up the view that if caldari were so bad, why are the gals so average in defeating them?
I can only assume its in the spirit of fw love amiright?
Ps. Loving the warzone right now btw guys (both sides are being awesome) and only 2 awox attempts! Ludicrous. i will say though that the constant stream of defensive stabbed plexers is INSANE. I honestly dont get how you guys stay chill about it If its been like this for months.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2769
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Posted - 2015.01.27 17:57:05 -
[23] - Quote
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote: Ps. Loving the warzone right now btw guys (both sides are being awesome) and only 2 awox attempts! Ludicrous. i will say though that the constant stream of defensive stabbed plexers is INSANE. I honestly dont get how you guys stay chill about it If its been like this for months.
The trick is to remember that, win or lose, you're in it for the pvp. Front lines are fun, and everybody knows where to go to get fights. That's all that matters.
JUSTK is recruiting.
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Degnar Oskold
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
145
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Posted - 2015.01.27 18:00:01 -
[24] - Quote
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote: i will say though that the constant stream of defensive stabbed plexers is INSANE.
I love those guys. They give honourable solo duels without calling in a blob once you use an Astero with multiple points to catch them. They help me to get my L337 solo PVP on. |
Moglarr
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
41
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Posted - 2015.01.27 19:40:45 -
[25] - Quote
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:/Munches popcorn
From up here on my unassailable logic perch it looks like caldari win because they aren't gallente. Furthermore those stats clearly back up the view that if caldari were so bad, why are the gals so average in defeating them?
I can only assume its in the spirit of fw love amiright?
Ps. Loving the warzone right now btw guys (both sides are being awesome) and only 2 awox attempts! Ludicrous. i will say though that the constant stream of defensive stabbed plexers is INSANE. I honestly dont get how you guys stay chill about it If its been like this for months.
Real dplexers don't use stabs. Those cost ISK. Why bother fitting a ship of it is dplexing?
Frankly, I don't encounter stabbed dplexers often. Usually just Gallente either looking for a fight or looking for LP. Either way I try and chase them out of their plex and run their timer. Spite is a powerful motivational tool, and then they know where to find me if they want to be shot at. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
715
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Posted - 2015.01.27 23:31:41 -
[26] - Quote
Epikurus wrote:Next step is to ignore the inaccurate headline figures and look in the class summary. There we see that Gallente losses were 27.25 bil to Caldari losses of 34.66, which amounts to roughly 44% of the losses on the Gallente side and 56% on the Caldari side. So, yes, you can (cherry-) pick out individual ship classes and talk about the number of ships if you like, but that ignores the value of the ships and their comparative power. While that level of efficiency shows a definite qualitative advantage, it is a small one and hardly sufficient to make up for the loss of the strategic objective. Your numbers are more accurate, and you're right that you need to correct the reports that get linked. It's the annoying part of doing this analysis, and a lot of people screw that up.
Thing is, both you and Yuri are correct in your analysis.
1. GalMil failed to take Hasmijaala. We didn't expect you to stick it out as long as you did, and weren't properly set up for our initial pushes. That gave you all time to restock and reinforce, which you took great advantage of. Well done, and noone on the Gallente side should say otherwise.
2. That said, GalMil continued to inflict much higher losses than we sustained when engaging in plex warfare to achieve the strategic objective. We clearly murdered more of your frigates, destroyers, and cruisers than we lost in return, both in absolute numbers and percentage of hulls fielded.
3. It's very difficult to parse out the impact of neutrals on the main push for plex control. Both CalMil and GalMil total isk killed was inflated by mobbing the neutrals, and several pricey GalMil boats would never have been on field were it not for that kind of bait. There was nothing that CalMil fielded that required GalMil BS and Carriers to come on field. Similarly, not entirely sure why that Caldari carrier was derped...
4. It's also hard to discount the impact of having major neutral crews nearby - Snuff in Sujarento, for example - had on the campaign as a whole. Not only did they impact plex turnover, but they also significantly impacted reshipping - which hampered us more than you, for obvious reasons.
So... the traditional 65/35 or even 70/30 split in isk efficiency we've seen in past campaigns wasn't in evidence here. And yet, our traditional efficiency in numbers killed vs. numbers lost was pretty much in line with past experience. This campaign was more poorly planned and executed than our past endeavors, and you all absolutely capitalized on that. This campaign also had a number of other factors that were in play that weren't in previous campaigns, and I think you don't give those enough credit in your own analysis. Various GalMil groups were more comfortable fielding expensive ships, which were the natural prey of the very capable neutral third parties that lived nearby.
We look at the numbers we killed and lost, and the total price you paid to hold the system, and are content enough with our performance while acknowledging the mistakes we made from a planning perspective. You see the narrowed isk efficiency and the fact that you held against a major assault, and are pleased with your performance - as well you should. But to look at having held the system and then crowing that we somehow now suck is... disingenuous at best.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
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Yuri Antollare
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
109
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Posted - 2015.01.28 02:08:50 -
[27] - Quote
It helps to remember that the main issue is the weblink the page provides struggles to update after you fiddle with the teams. The corrections you helpfully suggested had already been done with the page I pulled those stats from. But thank you for the presumptions.
The final numbers once you thoroughly check every entity and put them on the right team is 449 calmill v 423 galmill. 27.2b v 37.1b, and if we're analysing plex warfare, the largest contributor to our losses was an out of plex warfare capital derp to mixed squid/snuff by a gall corp not pushing Hasmij, but feel free to keep those in there when judging the efficiency of your plexing doctrines :)
^ Thats why its interesting to ignore some of the headline numbers (even though the headlines imply an extremely rough time for the defenders.)
Cruisers tend to fight cruisers, sniper corms tend to fight sniper corms, as such these stats can be very illuminating. Its not 'cherry picking', feel free to scour the pages and show me the ship class that Calmill dominated in, either in raw number of ships killed or isk lost, you can have your pick of metric. I mean 400 corms lost to kill 200 might be okay if you're flying derp corms, but then you see that you lost 4b in corms versus our 1.93b, thats pretty astounding given the stand and deliver tit for tat trading style of combat corm v corm leads to. In the end though, if you want to see the stats as a positive, I should really get out of the way and let you continue doing that
The percentage difference may be 'smaller,' but the absolute numbers are also higher, for instance it may be cold comfort to JF pilots that the percentage difference was so "small" when it reality it results in them having to bring in a thousand more ships than the Gallente to remain competitive.
In terms of was it worth the "loss" of a strategic objective. Well first off, you are on defense, so us not taking your home is not a 'loss' for us aside from the material losses in ships. Secondly, but perhaps more importantly, is that I hope you know what our objective was before trying to determine if we failed to achieve it
Perhaps the objective for corps/alliances that live nowhere near Hasmijala (cause you know, ass end of the map and all that,) and have no interaction with Templis day to day, was to kick Templis out of the WZ. It could also be the case that at a time where the farmers (Amarr) were on your side and our systems being plexed heavily, we decided to attack a Calmill center of gravity in the hopes of concentrating their forces (say 37b worth?) and obliterating them. This could leave Calmill unable to strike a Gall home system during their time with the pendulum and leaving them in a poor state to deploy quickly to somewhere say Kinakka.
Seeing as I won't repost alliance forums for you, you may just have to be stuck with never knowing |
Silverbackyererse
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
123
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Posted - 2015.01.28 07:04:22 -
[28] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote: Seeing as I won't repost alliance forums for you, you may just have to be stuck with never knowing
Muhahahahahahaha. Hahahahahahaha. Muhahahahahahah.
/me slaps myself..........
Muhahahahahahaha. Hahahahahahaha. Muhahahahahahaha.
Slapping didn't appear to work. |
Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
68
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:10:52 -
[29] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote: But to look at having held the system and then crowing that we somehow now suck is... disingenuous at best.
You've got it slightly backwards here. My point was that no-one in the Caldari Militia felt the need to post a brag thread about holding Hasmijala, to which Yuri replied that this was because CalMil sucks and got slaughtered in Hasmijala. My post was meant to refute that claim, not to crow (I have the utmost respect for the Gallente militia). By contrast, this thread is clearly meant to crow about something far less significant - taking an unoccupied system.
Yuri wrote: It could also be the case that at a time where the farmers (Amarr) were on your side and our systems being plexed heavily, we decided to attack a Calmill center of gravity in the hopes of concentrating their forces (say 37b worth?) and obliterating them. This could leave Calmill unable to strike a Gall home system during their time with the pendulum and leaving them in a poor state to deploy quickly to somewhere say Kinakka.
I'd like to think that our opponents have more brains than this. There was no 'being in a poor state to deploy quickly to ... Kinakka'. There was just no-one actively living in that system so you were never going to get the kind of fight you would over somewhere significant. |
Arla Sarain
261
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:20:39 -
[30] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote: It could also be the case that at a time where the farmers (Amarr) were on your side and our systems being plexed heavily, we decided to attack a Calmill center of gravity in the hopes of concentrating their forces (say 37b worth?) and obliterating them. This could leave Calmill unable to strike a Gall home system during their time with the pendulum and leaving them in a poor state to deploy quickly to somewhere say Kinakka.
Its like tinfoil-hatting yourself. |
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