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Eliza StarBender
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.01.26 21:20:17 -
[1] - Quote
In general, is there a noticeable difference in the ability to gank someone in a shield tanked fit over an armor tanked one?
I know skills and hull bonus and such will play a factor, but let's assume for the sake of argument that all things are roughly equal; Hull A vs. Hull B, both have the same number of hitpoints and equal resists for their appropriate tank. Will there be a speed difference? |
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
235
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Posted - 2015.01.26 21:41:11 -
[2] - Quote
There is no practical difference for most kinds of ganks, but armor tanked ships tend to have much lower signature radiuses than shield tanked ships, so if your ship is moving and being shot at by larger weapons than its size category, the armor tanked ship is likely to take less damage. This is usually not relevant in ganks, but it does come up often in fleet fights where signature and speed tanking is extremely relevant. |
Marsan
266
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Posted - 2015.01.26 21:52:38 -
[3] - Quote
In theory shields are less gankable.
- Shields will regen over time. - When fighting NPC a shield tank will still have an armor buffer, while the armor tanker's shields will already be down.
That said shield vs armor is a non issue in 99% of ganks. The experienced ganker is going to bring enough dps to blow through your shields, armor, and structure using your weakest damage type in a very short amount of time. The thing to do is make your ship require more isk to blow up than the attacker will get if they gank you. It differs from ship to ship. A drake like all Cal ships should fit for omni-resists, and buffer for their shields. Ammar ship should fit omni-resists, and buffer for their armor. An Orca on the other hand should always structure tank, and possibly shield tank as well.
Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4460
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Posted - 2015.01.27 00:16:36 -
[4] - Quote
Ganker chiming in here.
Buffer/resist tanks are harder to gank than capacitor using tanks, except on Marauders (where the active tanks are so big that they can turn a fight when overheated). However, there's little difference between armor and shield tanks and you should always fit to your ship's strengths rather than try to force one type of tank.
Usually, however, you will be more able to survive if you have advance warning that we are coming. There's lots of ways to detect trouble before it's too late. Directional scan will save you more times than a tank ever will.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Eliza StarBender
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.01.27 01:16:49 -
[5] - Quote
Thanks for the helpful info everyone. It's much appreciated. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
909
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Posted - 2015.01.27 02:17:42 -
[6] - Quote
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:armor tanked ships tend to have much lower signature radiuses than shield tanked ships,
I'm not so sure that is completely accurate. If you add shield extenders and/or shield rigs it is more likely to be accurate, but imo none of those mods really make sense on a mission boat. I grabbed most of the battleship hulls I would consider runing missions with and sorted by sig radius: http://i.imgur.com/nzXPlrm.png
ah well they are all pretty much big enough I doubt you will be sig tanking a whole lot vs gankers.
I would also add note resist holes. a kin/therm tanked kronos for example is very vulnerable to explosive damage. without bastion mode it is possible to solo gank a kronos. I'm not sure how well that would go with bastion though.
I'll join the chorus asking CCP, don't take my fancy names away from me!
In the name of the Limos, the Malkuth, and the Arbalest, so help me pod
- Mara Rinn
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Nevil Oscillator
167
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Posted - 2015.01.27 04:29:38 -
[7] - Quote
Eliza StarBender wrote:In general, is there a noticeable difference in the ability to gank someone in a shield tanked fit over an armor tanked one?
I know skills and hull bonus and such will play a factor, but let's assume for the sake of argument that all things are roughly equal; Hull A vs. Hull B, both have the same number of hitpoints and equal resists for their appropriate tank. Will there be a speed difference?
Some Armour Mods/Rigs have Speed penalty, Some shield Mods/Rigs have Sig Radius penalty.
Armour tends to be naturally resistant to EM/Therm
Shields tend to be naturally resistant to Kin/Explosive
Some ships don't follow this pattern
The number of different scenarios under which a combat can take place is quite varied, which ones constitute a gank ? |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4551
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Posted - 2015.01.27 10:59:47 -
[8] - Quote
Tanking: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3844723#post3844723 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4233022#post4233022
Armor: Large HP buffer, slow active repair (end of cycle), more capacitor efficient, low slots at the expense of damage mods.
Shield: Smaller HP buffer, fast active repair (start of cycle), less capacitor efficient (active), predominantly mid-slots at the expense of EWAR mods. |
Trey Kutoi
The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Spaceship Samurai
44
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Posted - 2015.01.27 12:51:49 -
[9] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Tanking: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3844723#post3844723 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4233022#post4233022 Armor: Large HP buffer, lower resists, slow active repair (end of cycle), more capacitor efficient, low slots at the expense of damage mods. Shield: Smaller HP buffer, higher resists, fast active repair (start of cycle), less capacitor efficient (active), predominantly mid-slots at the expense of EWAR mods. I think the current champion of EFT-warrior tanking (excluding Caldari supercaps) is the Bustard, a shield tank Deep Space Transport, in a shield tanking enhancing w-space system [plus the usual EFT-warrior supplies: implants, boosters, officer modules, max link bonuses]. The EFT-warrior fit has no practical use, though a usable sensible T2 fit has a hisec EHP on par with a freighter.
I heard some crazy things about 400k EHP Amarr DST with slaves |
Nevil Oscillator
167
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Posted - 2015.01.27 13:03:04 -
[10] - Quote
There are several options if someone attacks you,
Fight back
Warp away
Wait for help
There might be others but in high sec help comes quite rapidly in the form of Concord so long as you were not the initial aggressor. No tank is entirely unbreakable but I think it is mostly an equation of [ is your ship worth the time and ship loses required from that number of players to destroy it ? ]
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Memphis Baas
94
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Posted - 2015.01.27 13:40:27 -
[11] - Quote
You're asking about "gank," which implies that the damage is so overwhelming that you won't stand a chance anyway. So, in that case, no, it doesn't make a difference.
For a close fight between your theoretical two identical ships, it will likely come down to pilot flying skills, and if that is also hypothetically equal, it may come down to the difference in side-effects (shields' increased signature radius vs. armor's slower speeds). |
Nevil Oscillator
167
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Posted - 2015.01.27 13:47:24 -
[12] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:You're asking about "gank," which implies that the damage is so overwhelming that you won't stand a chance anyway. So, in that case, no, it doesn't make a difference. .
In high sec you only have to survive for x number of seconds, be aware that small ganking guns are often only effective within 3 km. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4551
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Posted - 2015.01.27 18:16:40 -
[13] - Quote
Trey Kutoi wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:I think the current champion of EFT-warrior tanking (excluding Caldari supercaps) is the Bustard, a shield tank Deep Space Transport, in a shield tanking enhancing w-space system [plus the usual EFT-warrior supplies: implants, boosters, officer modules, max link bonuses]. The EFT-warrior fit has no practical use, though a usable sensible T2 fit has a hisec EHP on par with a freighter. I heard some crazy things about 400k EHP Amarr DST with slaves The Bustard is the only ship to reach negative resists. I think that's been patched now though. |
Nevil Oscillator
167
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:43:17 -
[14] - Quote
Trey Kutoi wrote:
I heard some crazy things about 400k EHP Amarr DST with slaves
Actually from what I have seen , A lot of armour mods are less effective than their Shield equivalent but it never seems that way when I am shooting one. I think one bonus of Armour is that you get shield damage as a warning of incoming fire so you don't have to react so fast to switch on your mods. If you get ambushed and your shield tank isn't activated , it can be gone before you realize. plus the point about cap, shield tanks can't usually be left on indefinitely because of the cap drain. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8668
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Posted - 2015.01.27 23:15:27 -
[15] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:You're asking about "gank," which implies that the damage is so overwhelming that you won't stand a chance anyway. So, in that case, no, it doesn't make a difference. . In high sec you only have to survive for x number of seconds, be aware that small ganking guns are often only effective within 3 km. True for destroyers but not for vexors, brutix , tornado or talos fleets. If you're going to be ganked, the chances are they've scanned your ship beforehand an know how much they need to bring.
Best way to avoid a gank is to be an awarebear and each for local spikes, dscan , and most effectively,
Don't put so much bling on your ship that it's the most isk/hour efficient activity in the region.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4471
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Posted - 2015.01.28 01:06:55 -
[16] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:You're asking about "gank," which implies that the damage is so overwhelming that you won't stand a chance anyway. So, in that case, no, it doesn't make a difference.
For a close fight between your theoretical two identical ships, it will likely come down to pilot flying skills, and if that is also hypothetically equal, it may come down to the difference in side-effects (shields' increased signature radius vs. armor's slower speeds).
Gank has a quite different meaning in EVE.
In (say) World of Warcraft, 'ganking' is finding a player with stats so much lower than yours that they do not stand a chance against you.
In EVE, ganking means killing someone before the police arrive and neutralize your attacker. The term only makes sense in highsec or (less often) in lowsec in range of gate/station guns.
Small improvements to your ship can indeed save you - if police response time is 22 seconds (0.5 security systems it is about this), the difference between being able to withstand 20 seconds of fire, and 25 seconds is considerable.
Your best defense, however, is to be diligent *before* you are attacked. A tank is a last resort.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Nevil Oscillator
167
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Posted - 2015.01.28 01:15:56 -
[17] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
watch for local spikes,
dscan ,
and most effectively,
Don't put so much bling on your ship that it's the most isk/hour efficient activity in the region.
I will take your word for it that cruiser ganking is possible , double the DPS for 4 times the price possibly
They seem to me a bit slow for that kind of interception game.
I think you just get a buzz out of giving care bears a nervous disposition.. lol |
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
239
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Posted - 2015.01.28 01:21:33 -
[18] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Gank has a quite different meaning in EVE.
In (say) World of Warcraft, 'ganking' is finding a player with stats so much lower than yours that they do not stand a chance against you.
In EVE, ganking means killing someone before the police arrive and neutralize your attacker. The term only makes sense in highsec or (less often) in lowsec in range of gate/station guns.
Small improvements to your ship can indeed save you - if police response time is 22 seconds (0.5 security systems it is about this), the difference between being able to withstand 20 seconds of fire, and 25 seconds is considerable.
Your best defense, however, is to be diligent *before* you are attacked. A tank is a last resort. The word gank as a noun is also used for sufficiently gangrapey one-sided fights outside of highsec. For example, when I find someone doing PvE in a wormhole and bring a 5 man gang to violate him, I call it a gank. Going up the food chain, when No Holes Barred sees my 5 man gang ganking the PvE Tengu, their 20 man fleet has an opportunity to come and gank my fleet in turn.
Hells, just about all real fights in eve can be described as ganks, since if the fight is not one-sided, your scouts have not done their job properly and you should probably give them a good whipping so the next fight will be a gank in your favour. Fair fights are sure signs of failed intel or pointless come-fight-us-at-the-sun ''fights''.
Not all ganks are suicide ganks. |
Nevil Oscillator
167
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Posted - 2015.01.28 01:26:07 -
[19] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
In EVE, ganking means killing someone before the police arrive and neutralize your attacker. The term only makes sense in highsec or (less often) in lowsec in range of gate/station guns.
.
I think different groups use the term ganked in different ways, as a figure of speech you might say "I got ganked" meaning a load of ships kicked your ass but in reality you were in low sec and you would have done the same to them if your crew had arrived on time.
Ganked = Shafted
Some people literally got shafted |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8670
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Posted - 2015.01.28 01:46:59 -
[20] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
watch for local spikes,
dscan ,
and most effectively,
Don't put so much bling on your ship that it's the most isk/hour efficient activity in the region.
I will take your word for it that cruiser ganking is possible , double the DPS for 4 times the price possibly They seem to me a bit slow for that kind of interception game. I think you just get a buzz out of giving care bears a nervous disposition.. lol If it's cost effective, anything will be used, you can be held in place by bumping till the squad arives here's something my CEO wrote a while ago on someone using a talos fleet http://evedarklord.blogspot.ca/2014/01/unauthorized-player-profile-aedric.html?view=sidebar
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Nevil Oscillator
167
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Posted - 2015.01.28 06:39:04 -
[21] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Sure though of that 9 Bil most of it would have fit in a shuttle.
And probably be safer
I'm not going to tell every mission runner to watch DScan in high sec just because there is a remote chance that pirates can organize themselves enough to hit a freighter. You are going to stop the mission if you see combat probes ? |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8671
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:31:01 -
[22] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Sure though of that 9 Bil most of it would have fit in a shuttle. And probably be safer I'm not going to tell every mission runner to watch DScan in high sec just because there is a remote chance that pirates can organize themselves enough to hit a freighter. You are going to stop the mission if you see combat probes ? No, clearly not, but it's not a bad idea if you're ship has enough bling hanging off it, no one will gank a t2 fit battle ship with a damage control (plenty would flip it but no one will gank it), put enough purple on your ship and they will.
How much is enough?
Use the table above to work out how much firepower it would take to kill your ship, then check evecentral to see how much that would cost , then compare that to the cost of your ship.
If your ship cost at or under the required amount, you should be fine, if it's over by any substantial amount then you should probably have the known gankers added to your contacts, you should wach dscan ect ect....
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Nevil Oscillator
167
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Posted - 2015.01.28 12:19:33 -
[23] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: clearly not, but it's not a bad idea if you're ship has enough bling hanging off it, no one will gank a t2 fit battle ship with a damage control (plenty would flip it but no one will gank it), put enough purple on your ship and they will.
...
Lol,.. I'm not in the habit of giving advice to people with purple ships but from the way the OP phrased the question, my stab in the dark guess would be that her ship isn't. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
980
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Posted - 2015.01.28 12:40:26 -
[24] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
That gank target's worth is based on the BPC being BPO which is probably not the case.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8672
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Posted - 2015.01.28 12:59:40 -
[25] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: That gank target's worth is based on the BPC being BPO which is probably not the case. True, I was simply citing it as an instance of something other than destroyers being used.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Nevil Oscillator
167
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Posted - 2015.01.28 13:12:06 -
[26] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: That gank target's worth is based on the BPC being BPO which is probably not the case. True, I was simply citing it as an instance of something other than destroyers being used.
Thanks for that Ralph, it is interesting, now all we need is a kill mail from a mission runner that was ganked and it will no longer be hearsay :) |
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
239
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Posted - 2015.01.28 13:17:20 -
[27] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote: Thanks for that Ralph, it is interesting, now all we need is a kill mail from a mission runner that was ganked and it will no longer be hearsay :)
Back in the day a certain group ran a campaign of suicide ganking officer-fit mission runners to fund their Titan purchase. It was very much doable and produced plenty of killmails, but it required pretty extreme effort in tracking down viable targets and keeping record of their schedules and habits to find the right time and place to strike.
Ganking mission runners is hard work, so most people find easier avenues of making isk, even if it can be extremely profitable when done right. |
Nevil Oscillator
167
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Posted - 2015.01.28 13:33:20 -
[28] - Quote
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:
Ganking mission runners is hard work, so most people find easier avenues of making isk, even if it can be extremely profitable when done right.
That is similar to my synopsis
It would take a lot of organizing and the targets that you would really be looking for are not so green behind the ears.
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Nevil Oscillator
167
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Posted - 2015.01.29 21:34:35 -
[29] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: True, I was simply citing it as an instance of something other than destroyers being used.
It is a nice story and I am glad someone somewhere does do operations that involved. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Quantum Distributions
1409
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Posted - 2015.01.31 07:18:38 -
[30] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Trey Kutoi wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:I think the current champion of EFT-warrior tanking (excluding Caldari supercaps) is the Bustard, a shield tank Deep Space Transport, in a shield tanking enhancing w-space system [plus the usual EFT-warrior supplies: implants, boosters, officer modules, max link bonuses]. The EFT-warrior fit has no practical use, though a usable sensible T2 fit has a hisec EHP on par with a freighter. I heard some crazy things about 400k EHP Amarr DST with slaves The Bustard is the only ship to reach negative resists. I think that's been patched now though. I thought they determined that it was a corner case that didn't actually matter?
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
watch for local spikes,
dscan ,
and most effectively,
Don't put so much bling on your ship that it's the most isk/hour efficient activity in the region.
I will take your word for it that cruiser ganking is possible , double the DPS for 4 times the price possibly They seem to me a bit slow for that kind of interception game. I think you just get a buzz out of giving care bears a nervous disposition.. lol The blaster/mixed drone vexor outputs about 1.5 times the dps for twice the price. The Rail/Sentry vexor outputs about 5/6ths of the dps of a blaster cat at 15km with enough tank to survive gate guns until concord arrives. Both are mostly used by solo gankers, the blaster version for hitting tanked mackinaws, and rail version as an upgrade to the gate gank thrasher for industrial ganking.
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