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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24854
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Posted - 2015.01.28 17:21:16 -
[391] - Quote
Annette Nolen wrote:I don't really want to pollute this thread with the responses; read the linked thread if you have suggestions, but I promise all of your points have been covered. Including the one that you're asking for something that's already in the game?
Quote:The only thing I wanted to address here is the assertion that you are home safe if you get into warp. Not even close... good bumpers will follow you and pin you again. And then pop you. Bumpers don't pop you, so no. Your idea also breaks the physics engine for no real reason. The fact of the matter is that your suggestion tries to fix something that is problem solely because you make it one by adding something with the potential to completely unbalance the game. Your unwillingness to use the multiple counters that exist is not a good reason to break things willy-nilly.
Quote:There is no perfect avoidance technique This is a good thing. You want one to exist. That is a bad thing. That's as simple as it gets.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
47
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Posted - 2015.01.28 17:33:19 -
[392] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:But using Cats, or one guy using Cats that will at most cost him 50mil and able to take down anything in the game that can't fight back is insane. There is no risk, because the character is already -10 and throw away and the isk is minuscule. Everything in the game can fight back against one guy in a Catalyst. Zendon Taredi wrote:That is up for CCP to decide. So it's not needed, then, since that's what they just decided.
Well, i do believe they will regret that. |
Alli Ginthur
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
26
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Posted - 2015.01.28 17:33:49 -
[393] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zendon Taredi wrote:I'm okay with this if it comes with a dessie nerf so strong that gankers will be forced to use tier 3. That way they are risking something too, and not just reaping a guaranteed profit. See thats the thing. I give mad props to ganker fleets who can organize 10 Tornados or Talos and can pop a hauler the right way. Those guys have to set up, scan out and determine the risk/reward of the gank. But using Cats, or one guy using Cats that will at most cost him 50mil and able to take down anything in the game that can't fight back is insane. There is no risk, because the character is already -10 and throw away and the isk is minuscule.
And the difference between one guy using the 50mil of catalysts and the fleet using 50mil of catalysts is... what? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14704
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 17:33:54 -
[394] - Quote
Zendon Taredi wrote: Well, i do believe they will regret that.
Why?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
33
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Posted - 2015.01.28 17:34:42 -
[395] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:But using Cats, or one guy using Cats that will at most cost him 50mil and able to take down anything in the game that can't fight back is insane. There is no risk, because the character is already -10 and throw away and the isk is minuscule. Everything in the game can fight back against one guy in a Catalyst. Zendon Taredi wrote:That is up for CCP to decide. So it's not needed, then, since that's what they just decided.
How does a freighter fight back? How many locked targets can it have? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24854
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 17:35:05 -
[396] - Quote
Zendon Taredi wrote:Well, i do believe they will regret that. There's no reason to believe they will. After all, changing nothing is not a sufficient reason to suddenly nerf the hell out of an entire play style.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:How does a freighter fight back? How many locked targets can it have? By flying forwards and having more HP than the Catalyst can deliver before it dies. No target locks required.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
33
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Posted - 2015.01.28 17:35:56 -
[397] - Quote
Alli Ginthur wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zendon Taredi wrote:I'm okay with this if it comes with a dessie nerf so strong that gankers will be forced to use tier 3. That way they are risking something too, and not just reaping a guaranteed profit. See thats the thing. I give mad props to ganker fleets who can organize 10 Tornados or Talos and can pop a hauler the right way. Those guys have to set up, scan out and determine the risk/reward of the gank. But using Cats, or one guy using Cats that will at most cost him 50mil and able to take down anything in the game that can't fight back is insane. There is no risk, because the character is already -10 and throw away and the isk is minuscule. And the difference between one guy using the 50mil of catalysts and the fleet using 50mil of catalysts is... what?
Nothing, that is why I said I respect the 10x Tornados....
I never said there was a difference, just more salt in the wound that one guy can do it. But comprehension for the barbaric seems low in this thread. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24862
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Posted - 2015.01.28 17:39:11 -
[398] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Nothing, that is why I said I respect the 10x Tornados....
I never said there was a difference, just more salt in the wound that one guy can do it. But comprehension for the barbaric seems low in this thread. Yes. For instance, your comprehension of basic ganking is so low that you fail to understand that more set-up and skill in playing the game is required from the single guy than from the 10 Tornadoes. F1 monkeying requires very little; multiboxing all the roles required for a jollyjab requires many times more.
So your respect for that much lower amount of effort is kind of curious. It explains a lot, thoughGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Alli Ginthur
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
26
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Posted - 2015.01.28 17:39:19 -
[399] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Alli Ginthur wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zendon Taredi wrote:I'm okay with this if it comes with a dessie nerf so strong that gankers will be forced to use tier 3. That way they are risking something too, and not just reaping a guaranteed profit. See thats the thing. I give mad props to ganker fleets who can organize 10 Tornados or Talos and can pop a hauler the right way. Those guys have to set up, scan out and determine the risk/reward of the gank. But using Cats, or one guy using Cats that will at most cost him 50mil and able to take down anything in the game that can't fight back is insane. There is no risk, because the character is already -10 and throw away and the isk is minuscule. And the difference between one guy using the 50mil of catalysts and the fleet using 50mil of catalysts is... what? Nothing, that is why I said I respect the 10x Tornados.... I never said there was a difference, just more salt in the wound that one guy can do it. But comprehension for the barbaric seems low in this thread.
So you respect the 10 tornado fleet for planning and executing a gank, however dont respect the catalyst guy/fleet planning and executing a gank... because :reasons:? |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
765
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 17:40:31 -
[400] - Quote
To all the carebear whiners who think this is somehow "easy", "free kills", "without consequences" or whatever. Go on and try it yourself before you come to this thread and talk about something you have no idea about. I bet not a single one of you will be able to kill an Orca, Bowhead or Freighter with this tactic.
I even think you will not even try because this will totally ruin your precious sec status. But I am sure it will not prevent you from coming back to the forums and cry about how little consequences ganking has.
This is a very fragile tactic, there are hundreds of ways to stop such a gank with almost zero effort. But that's not enough for you right? All you want is 100% safety in highsec and nothing else, don't even try to pretend something else.
cheers
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
33
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Posted - 2015.01.28 17:41:19 -
[401] - Quote
Alli Ginthur wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Alli Ginthur wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zendon Taredi wrote:I'm okay with this if it comes with a dessie nerf so strong that gankers will be forced to use tier 3. That way they are risking something too, and not just reaping a guaranteed profit. See thats the thing. I give mad props to ganker fleets who can organize 10 Tornados or Talos and can pop a hauler the right way. Those guys have to set up, scan out and determine the risk/reward of the gank. But using Cats, or one guy using Cats that will at most cost him 50mil and able to take down anything in the game that can't fight back is insane. There is no risk, because the character is already -10 and throw away and the isk is minuscule. And the difference between one guy using the 50mil of catalysts and the fleet using 50mil of catalysts is... what? Nothing, that is why I said I respect the 10x Tornados.... I never said there was a difference, just more salt in the wound that one guy can do it. But comprehension for the barbaric seems low in this thread. So you respect the 10 tornado fleet for planning and executing a gank, however dont respect the catalyst guy/fleet planning and executing a gank... because :reasons:?
Because the Cat fleet has nothing to lose. They can gank just for tears, where the Tornados have to gank to cover their costs.
And no Tippia, 5mil for a Cat is not "cost" its pennies. |
Captain Jazzmag
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
15
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Posted - 2015.01.28 17:42:52 -
[402] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: To be honest it's pointless arguing with someone like you because you're not interested in what's fair and balanced gameplay.
Next you'll be telling us about eHonour.
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Alli Ginthur
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
29
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Posted - 2015.01.28 17:46:28 -
[403] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Alli Ginthur wrote:
So you respect the 10 tornado fleet for planning and executing a gank, however dont respect the catalyst guy/fleet planning and executing a gank... because :reasons:?
Because the Cat fleet has nothing to lose. They can gank just for tears, where the Tornados have to gank to cover their costs. And no Tippia, 5mil for a Cat is not "cost" its pennies.
So the cost of the ship is your primary sticking point. You think the cost of a ship is how to balance ship strength. Its a good thing you arent in charge of balancing. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14705
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 17:46:43 -
[404] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Because the Cat fleet has nothing to lose. They can gank just for tears, where the Tornados have to gank to cover their costs.
And no Tippia, 5mil for a Cat is not "cost" its pennies.
Show me a t2 cat for 5 mil.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Varrgas Arthurus
Pain Jambon Beurre et Salade
0
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Posted - 2015.01.28 17:48:04 -
[405] - Quote
Ridiculus ....
This decision make me Disappointed !
Some player find a way to exploit the rules and game mecanics to cross the rules for kill people "alone" and that the most important point for me ! And you let them do it ?
That fuckin stupid !
I didn't want to have an High sc without kill and in an eternal peace, but concord is just usless if you let this happen, remove it.
Sonn this Game will be the "Sucide Gank Game" , nothing else.
Please don't break your game after all your hard work... |
Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
47
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 17:49:21 -
[406] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Zendon Taredi wrote: Well, i do believe they will regret that.
Why?
Whine & petition spam. |
Annette Nolen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
70
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 17:49:55 -
[407] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Annette Nolen wrote:I don't really want to pollute this thread with the responses; read the linked thread if you have suggestions, but I promise all of your points have been covered. Including the one that you're asking for something that's already in the game?
Webbing is not a counter, just another avoidance. Inty warpouts are a bad counter dependent on something the game engine simply can't handle.
Tippia wrote:Bumpers don't pop you, so no.
Bumpers can chase me and lock me down again just as easily. Or rather, DID. If you leave out the part where I got blown up, nothing has changed with the OP nature of bumping in that scenario.
Tippia wrote:Quote:There is no perfect avoidance technique This is a good thing. You want one to exist. That is a bad thing. That's as simple as it gets.
What I'm actually asking for is a non-perfect counter to active bumping. Not a new technique to avoid ever being bumped, and certainly nothing that is a 100% certain hard counter against active bumping that somehow guarantees escape.
But I'm pretty much just repeating every point/counter-point made in the other thread. You haven't come up with anything original that hasn't already been addressed soundly over there.
There are only two valid positions for the con side to hold. 1) you don't believe active bumping needs a mechanical counter; that's fine, I respect that position (even though it's totally wrong). 2) you believe the module as-described is too certain to guarantee escape; that's fine, tweak the suggested values until it is better balanced in your opinion. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
35
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 17:52:47 -
[408] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Because the Cat fleet has nothing to lose. They can gank just for tears, where the Tornados have to gank to cover their costs.
And no Tippia, 5mil for a Cat is not "cost" its pennies.
Show me a t2 cat for 5 mil.
Why the heck would you need to use T2? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24868
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 17:53:21 -
[409] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Because the Cat fleet has nothing to lose. They can gank just for tears, where the Tornados have to gank to cover their costs.
And no Tippia, 5mil for a Cat is not "cost" its pennies. The cat fleet has everything to lose. The entire cat fleet, for instance. In many cases with nothing to show for it, unless they plan and pick their target properly.
And your personal definitions are irrelevant, 5M for a cat is a cost. You can claim otherwise until you're blue in the face, but reality simply will not budge on this matter. Oh, and don't think that ganknados can't be used just for tears GÇö suggesting otherwise also suggests a fundamental lack of understanding of ganking.
AlsoGǪAlli Ginthur wrote:So the cost of the ship is your primary sticking point. You think the cost of a ship is how to balance ship strength. Its a good thing you arent in charge of balancing. GǪthis. Cost is not a factor in balance, and certainly not in being worthy of respect. That seems like the most nonsensical and irrelevant detail to attach anything to.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24873
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 18:00:42 -
[410] - Quote
Annette Nolen wrote:Webbing is not a counter, just another avoidance. Inty warpouts are a bad counter dependent on something the game engine simply can't handle. In other words, webbing is a counter, as is warping in your new direction. Neither is dependent on something the game can't handle GÇö in fact, they both work exactly because the game can handle them.
Quote:Bumpers can chase me and lock me down again just as easily. GǪand you can escape them again, just as easily.
Quote:What I'm actually asking for is a non-perfect counter to active bumping. Uh-huh. You are dismissing all the existing, perfectly working counters because they are not 100% effective. To fix this oversight, you suggest that a module is made that breaks the physics engine. So yeah, no. That's pretty much exactly what you're asking for.
Oh, and your entire reasoning for needing this is fundamentally flawed since you incorrectly assume that bumping is 100% effective. The only reason you think it's that effective is because you choose GÇ£noneGÇ¥ when you are picking which of the existing counters to use.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
770
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Posted - 2015.01.28 18:11:25 -
[411] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:baltec1 wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Because the Cat fleet has nothing to lose. They can gank just for tears, where the Tornados have to gank to cover their costs.
And no Tippia, 5mil for a Cat is not "cost" its pennies.
Show me a t2 cat for 5 mil. Why the heck would you need to use T2? Because of the shield recharge and because the Orca bay is limited. Did you actually try the tactic yourself?
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Mag's
the united
18908
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Posted - 2015.01.28 18:13:16 -
[412] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:baltec1 wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Because the Cat fleet has nothing to lose. They can gank just for tears, where the Tornados have to gank to cover their costs.
And no Tippia, 5mil for a Cat is not "cost" its pennies.
Show me a t2 cat for 5 mil. Why the heck would you need to use T2? Because of the shield recharge and because the Orca bay is limited. Did you actually try the tactic yourself? Shhh, he's supplying comedy gold. We don't need him to learn the facts just yet.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
39
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Posted - 2015.01.28 18:28:28 -
[413] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:baltec1 wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Because the Cat fleet has nothing to lose. They can gank just for tears, where the Tornados have to gank to cover their costs.
And no Tippia, 5mil for a Cat is not "cost" its pennies.
Show me a t2 cat for 5 mil. Why the heck would you need to use T2? Because of the shield recharge and because the Orca bay is limited. Did you actually try the tactic yourself?
Have you? You know the Orca can go back to the station and get more...
And a T2 fit Cat costs 4x as much as a T1... but only does 20% more damage. So it doesn't take an economics major to figure out the Maths here. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24875
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 18:30:20 -
[414] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Have you? You know the Orca can go back to the station and get more... Want to guess what happens while it does?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
39
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Posted - 2015.01.28 18:31:51 -
[415] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Have you? You know the Orca can go back to the station and get more... Want to guess what happens while it does?
Nothing because my freighter is still being bumped by anything in the game that can fit a MWD
Recharge is chump... seriously even eft can tell you that. |
Annette Nolen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
72
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 18:32:39 -
[416] - Quote
Alli Ginthur wrote:And the difference between one guy using the 50mil of catalysts and the fleet using 50mil of catalysts is... what?
Yeah can we stop dancing around this please?
We all know what the difference is; the final cut per actual person involved (e.g. the human at the keyboard).
One person using three accounts only has to gank targets with sufficient value to get a cut large enough to warrant ONE PERSON involved. A fleet has to gank targets with sufficient value to get a cut large enough for EACH PERSON involved.
But let's boil it down even further so we can approach this simplistically. Let's assume ALL ganks are done by one perfectly rational multiboxing human.
Traditional freighter gank: 1 bumper + (14 or more gank pilots, depending) = 15 accounts to PLEX from the profit
Hyperdunk: 1 bumper + 1 bowhead/orca pilot + 1 gank pilot = 3 accounts to PLEX from the profit
Provided the hyperdunker is able to gank at least once for every five ganks done the traditional way, they will come out even or on top in terms of profit per account. The primary limitation on traditional ganking is not the time to gank, it's the GCC, so while a hyperdunker is not going to gank as frequently as a traditional ganker, they are still very likely going to gank at better than a 1 to 5 rate.
Net effect? Value of a ship worth ganking just got lower.
For the record, I have no problem with this. I wish every gank was a hyperdunk, it's really easy to defend against (1 remote repper and you're 100% safe). But that doesn't invalidate the concerns raised by the above math. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24875
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 18:34:55 -
[417] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Nothing because my freighter is still being bumped by anything in the game that can fit a MWD No, what happens is that the ganker gets ganked, the target is repped up, the vultures start showing up, and/or the target just gets away. If you need the fetch more ships, you have long since failed.
You keep stupidly assuming that you have unlimited time, and that drawing things out is somehow a good thing. It is the exact opposite of the truth.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
41
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Posted - 2015.01.28 18:37:38 -
[418] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Don't you even dare suggest such a thing, because it would be a lie. Real EVE PVE players aren't powerless victimhood pansies that complain about "oh whoa is me CCP don't like my play style". We are right there in the arena with the PVP jocks doing our thing, THINKING, acting, winning (wining for us is stacking wealth while "pvp players" shake their fists in the air because they can't hold us long enough to kill us).
So again, don't you dare pretend to speak for the (real) EVE PVE community. We aren't in the surrender business like the fake pve forum whine crowd likes to claim we are.
You, mate, have won the internet for today.
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: It's called balance. It's something different than "If you do PvP, you're good to go; If you dare to PvE, you're ****** and pay for it". This is a perfect example of the victim mentality at work - "I don't want to PvP, so I shouldn't be forced to, CCP protect me." Guess what? It's up to YOU to protect your assets from loss, regardless of the source of that loss. You don't want to get ganked? Then change your priorities from "Maximum Yield" or "AFK Isk/Hour" to "Protecting my Assets". The advice on how to do so has not changed, and is freely available. Hell, even the gankers will tell you how to better protcet yourself, if you ask without being a whiny ***** about it.
Out mining? Get someone to watch local, and someone else in fleet to watch dscan. When the usual suspects appear, dock up. Don't give them easy targets. Moving freight? Use a scout or a webber (preferably both). Check zkill to see if ganking crews are active in the bottleneck systems. GO A DIFFERENT WAY if one is available. Sure it may take longer, but once you focus on the right priority, it matters less.
Protecting yourself is not hard, nor is it some magical skill that only a select few possess. Anyone can do it. Does it mean you will never get ganked? No, but your chances go down significantly, if you're the harder of the available targets.
Remember - if we are being chased by a bear in the woods, I don't have to be faster than the bear. I just have to faster than you. The same thinking process applies here. You don't have to be impossible to gank. Just harder to gank than the guy next to you. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
43
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Posted - 2015.01.28 18:37:45 -
[419] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Nothing because my freighter is still being bumped by anything in the game that can fit a MWD No, what happens is that the ganker gets ganked, the target is repped up, the vultures start showing up, and/or the target just gets away. If you need the fetch more ships, you have long since failed. You keep stupidly assuming that you have unlimited time, and that drawing things out is somehow a good thing. It is the exact opposite of the truth.
What are you talking about. The ganker and the orca pilot are not the same. The ganker can keep pulling concord with shuttles while the Orca gets a fresh load of cats. The bumper keeps bumping. No vultures come because you are 5 or 6k off grid by now.
What are you even talking about now. Your points are unraveling and becoming desperate. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24878
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 18:43:31 -
[420] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:What are you talking about. The ganker and the orca pilot are not the same. The ganker can keep pulling concord with shuttles while the Orca gets a fresh load of cats. The bumper keeps bumping. No vultures come because you are 5 or 6k off grid by now. No, that's not how the tactic works, largely because you're using catalysts of all thingsGǪ Your answer makes no sense and doesn't really correspond to anything of what I said.
Quote:What are you even talking about now. Your points are unraveling and becoming desperate. You're confusing me with you.
Again, you keep assuming that you have unlimited time and that drawing things out is a good thing. This is the exact opposite of the truth. T1 catalysts might work if you have a big fleet, since it'll be over in 20GÇô30 seconds. For jollyjabbing, the slowness of T1 massively increases the risks involved.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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