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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15991
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:09:23 -
[121] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Malcanis wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Tippia wrote:They are. Chucking as many Catalysts at a target as needed to kill it is vastly more effort than is required of the target. This is the worrying trend in ganking: gankers are forced to put more and more and more effort in, and the feebleminded whiners are never satisfied and refuse to put even the slightest bit of effort in themselves. That is frankly pathetic, as is any claim that ganking takes no effort.
The gankers are working their asses off to think up new strategies and perfecting them. The hapless victims just cry. Why can't the victims put even an ounce of effort GÇö bloody or not GÇö in towards preventing these trivially avoidable events? You have a warped sense of what constitutes effort. You seem to be under the impression that a freighter should need to fly with an armada to defend it while a bumper, and orca and a handful of catalysts is enough to gank almost any ship regardless of how much tank is fit. Honestly I'm done with listening to layer like you crying to no end about how nothing should ever be changed to make your lives harder while everyone else should need to put in more effort, then more effort, then even more effort, just to not die. Gankers are by far the most carebear types of players in the whole game. They don't want effort, they don't want risk, and they demand the game is always changing in favour of their playstyle. What was the last thing that CCP changed to make Freighter piloting harder? I would have thought as an EX-CSM member you'd have an eye for detail. Maybe that's why it's EX-. I didn't claim they made freighter piloting harder, though the warp changes made it as entertaining as playing pong without a paddle to fly a freighter any significant distances.
You did say "and they [gankers] demand the game is always changing in favour of their playstyle"
What was the last such change?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
163
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:12:00 -
[122] - Quote
I think it's still a thing we'll be monitoring. People are completely correct when they mention this is a game where suicide ganking and non-consentual PvP has been given the thumbs up by developers. That being said, we would still like to see a nice balance between effort and intelligence required on both sides of the coin. Making ganking too easy is not our goal, nor is it the other way around. Where that balance lies, and if hyperdunking has crossed some line, we'll have to see. There are things we can change if needed. |
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Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
361
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:12:13 -
[123] - Quote
To clarify- the only way this works is if someone is not at all paying attention or has logged off.
If they have such a skilled bumper that you are unable to make it to the gate nor another celestial, then you would have died no matter the method used against you.
If you want to move billions worth of cargo around without any type of support (one webber?), then you are completely at fault for taking the risk.
High-sec already has the advantage that you can hide in NPC corps that cannot be war-decced. To be fair, they should remove NPC corps (or put a ship size limit on them), and fix the "War" mechanic, and then they could nerf highsec ganking.
Crying that one out of a thousand freighters gets ganked is a joke, everyone already abuses NPC alts to move cargo around in space. |
TheMeanPerson
War Decs Inc Space Warriors
10
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:12:13 -
[124] - Quote
I'm going to have some fun with this hyperdunking. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
9530
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:14:10 -
[125] - Quote
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:Quote:You only care about making the game as tilted towards your playstyle regardless of the effect on other players. You do realise that Tippia is about as far from being a ganker as you can get without being a carebear? His/her playstyle is one that is affected by things like ganking.
Well said.
People like that psoter need to believe that though, they need to believe that the only reason someone would disagree with them is because they benefit in some way from the situation. As you already know, this is because acknowledging the truth destroys the lies they tell themselves in order to keep believing the stuff that they post.
It happens to me al day every day, I'ma pve player that doesn't gank or scam or whatever because I don't see those things as fun and (as much as I hate to admit it), doing so would probably make me feel a bit of shame (for lack of a better word) lol. But i support the existence of gankers because this is a game and true balance means different people doing different thing , not everyone being bound by the Lucas Kell moral code.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24780
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:14:26 -
[126] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:I think it's still a thing we'll be monitoring. People are completely correct when they mention this is a game where suicide ganking and non-consentual PvP has been given the thumbs up by developers. That being said, we would still like to see a nice balance between effort and intelligence required on both sides of the coin. Making ganking too easy is not our goal, nor is it the other way around. Where that balance lies, and if hyperdunking has crossed some line, we'll have to see. There are things we can change if needed. So you'll be adding some requirement for us freighter pilots to put in at least some token effort and intelligenceGǪ when? Soon? Please?!
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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TheInternet TweepsOnline TheInternet
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:15:13 -
[127] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:I think it's still a thing we'll be monitoring. People are completely correct when they mention this is a game where suicide ganking and non-consentual PvP has been given the thumbs up by developers. That being said, we would still like to see a nice balance between effort and intelligence required on both sides of the coin. Making ganking too easy is not our goal, nor is it the other way around. Where that balance lies, and if hyperdunking has crossed some line, we'll have to see. There are things we can change if needed.
Hyperdunking requires more skill and coordination than most players are not capable of. Or as you put it, 'effort and intelligence'. |
Herpp Derpp
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
21
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:16:25 -
[128] - Quote
Bring a Nestor along to web/logi your freighter. You know you have one. |
TheMeanPerson
War Decs Inc Space Warriors
11
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:19:31 -
[129] - Quote
The real tragedy here is the billions of isk I gank every day from tier 1 industrials not knowing how to put a buffer tank on their haulers. This is what needs to be addressed, haulers need super buff ungankable, because ganking is bad and wrong. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15994
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:20:23 -
[130] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:I think it's still a thing we'll be monitoring. People are completely correct when they mention this is a game where suicide ganking and non-consentual PvP has been given the thumbs up by developers. That being said, we would still like to see a nice balance between effort and intelligence required on both sides of the coin. Making ganking too easy is not our goal, nor is it the other way around. Where that balance lies, and if hyperdunking has crossed some line, we'll have to see. There are things we can change if needed.
"Hyperdunking" is almost trivially easy to disrupt compared to the standard method.
The issue here is the same as it has always been: the AFK or near-AFK hauling demographic furiously defending its right to haul AFK/solo unmolested
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
164
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:22:22 -
[131] - Quote
Tippia wrote: So you'll be adding some requirement for us freighter pilots to put in at least some token effort and intelligenceGǪ when? Soon? Please?!
I'd like to make hauling more interesting in general. No time frame on that :P
TheInternet TweepsOnline TheInternet wrote: Hyperdunking requires more skill and coordination than most players are capable of. Or as you put it, more 'effort and intelligence'.
And we've made clear our current stance on it because of this and other factors. |
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Concord Guy's Cousin
State War Academy Caldari State
443
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:22:28 -
[132] - Quote
TheMeanPerson wrote:The real tragedy here is the billions of isk I gank every day from tier 1 industrials not knowing how to put a buffer tank on their haulers. This is what needs to be addressed, haulers need super buff ungankable, because ganking is bad and wrong. This is why we need a sarcasm tag
Some people might take it seriously
ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"
NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
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Annette Nolen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
64
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:23:21 -
[133] - Quote
Tippia wrote:This explains a lot. The warp changes sped up freighter runs by a fair margin. The introduction of slots increased it to the point where it can't really be called a margin any more.
... what?
The warp speed changes slowed down freighter runs considerably, at least for pretty much any average high sec route. The introduction of slots and the hyperspatial mods allowed you to tweak back to roughly what it had been pre-Rubicon, assuming you are willing to forgo some cargo and tank.
Freighter pilots in extremely large systems (so those in some null and low sec systems) would have definitely seen improvements, but the average gate-to-gate distances in high sec are on the wrong side of the fulcrum for the change and high sec freighters see considerably slower times overall.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the results of the warp speed changes and the slot additions. But you are just flat out incorrect if you are trying to argue that the warp speed changes were in any way beneficial to high sec freighter run times.
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
3695
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:24:17 -
[134] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:I think it's still a thing we'll be monitoring. People are completely correct when they mention this is a game where suicide ganking and non-consentual PvP has been given the thumbs up by developers. That being said, we would still like to see a nice balance between effort and intelligence required on both sides of the coin. Making ganking too easy is not our goal, nor is it the other way around. Where that balance lies, and if hyperdunking has crossed some line, we'll have to see. There are things we can change if needed.
Just a suggestion: add MJD for Bowheads. That's about the only civil thing I can say about what your company considers worth paying for.
The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
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Janeos
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
58
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:25:54 -
[135] - Quote
Thank you, CCP Falcon, for this rich harvest of tears.
Hulls for the Hull Throne, pod goo for the Pod Goo God! |
Annette Nolen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
64
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:26:36 -
[136] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Just a suggestion: add MJD for Bowheads. That's about the only civil thing I can say about what your company considers worth paying for.
My vote is for the warp assist module as I suggested over in the F&I forum. Requires alt/fleet assistance (so is not a solo escape), applies to more than just freighters and high-sec, and isn't even close to a 100% effective bumping counter, just balances the table a bit. Also does not require the incredibly tricky task of adding mid-slots to freighters without opening up ridiculous fitting options that probably should not exist :) |
TheMeanPerson
War Decs Inc Space Warriors
11
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:29:46 -
[137] - Quote
Lets be serious here guys, I hate to be the debbie downer for freighter and industrial pilots, but no matter what happens.
If you fly with something worth ganking, your going to get ganked. Just be smart, dont go afk, use a webber. OTHERWISE, you will end up like the people inside of the player hugh forehead's biography EVERY TIME. WE will FIND you. Hyperdunking or not. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4970
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:31:52 -
[138] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:No, this is simply your standard prejudice (against ganking, and CODE and the like, it's nothing more than 'grr goons' wrapped up in words) rearing it's head again, as it does most of the time when you post. You can try to hide it behind some fake altruistic 'balance' idea, but everyone here has your number on these kinds of discussions. And you know it. It's got nothing to do with prejudice. It's not my fault if every time any change of any kind is discussed CODE come filing in insulting everyone and screaming about the carebears. At the end of the day ganking IMO is already unbalanced and this ruling makes it more so.
I understand you don't agree, I understand you don't feel I should be allowed to voice my opinion. I simply don't care whether you like it or not, I'll post whatever I want wherever I want. If the response to that is going to be random people launching personal attacks at me, then that's fine. I'll still continue to hold my opinions.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4970
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:33:09 -
[139] - Quote
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:You're a troll, you've always been a troll and you'll always be a troll. Have you just looked in a mirror, because you just described yourself perfectly? Lol, "I know you are so what am I?", classic!
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1931
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:34:41 -
[140] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:At the end of the day ganking IMO is already unbalanced and this ruling makes it more so. Actually this ruling just maintains the current status quo... but lets not let little details like the subject of the discussion get in the way of things.
Witty Image - Stream
Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4970
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:38:42 -
[141] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:I think it's still a thing we'll be monitoring. People are completely correct when they mention this is a game where suicide ganking and non-consentual PvP has been given the thumbs up by developers. That being said, we would still like to see a nice balance between effort and intelligence required on both sides of the coin. Making ganking too easy is not our goal, nor is it the other way around. Where that balance lies, and if hyperdunking has crossed some line, we'll have to see. There are things we can change if needed. One thing that worries me is that ganking is cheap, like really cheap. An empty freighter is killboard green by a huge margin, no matter how tanked.
The old argument against this used to be "but to gank a freighter you need a lot of players and you can't always get a lot of players organised in time". Now it doesn't. Now a gank of any size requires 3 characters.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4213
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:40:48 -
[142] - Quote
Locked for a quick cleaning.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
3696
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:55:21 -
[143] - Quote
Annette Nolen wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Just a suggestion: add MJD for Bowheads. That's about the only civil thing I can say about what your company considers worth paying for. My vote is for the warp assist module as I suggested over in the F&I forum. Requires alt/fleet assistance (so is not a solo escape), applies to more than just freighters and high-sec, and isn't even close to a 100% effective bumping counter, just balances the table a bit. Also does not require the incredibly tricky task of adding mid-slots to freighters without opening up ridiculous fitting options that probably should not exist :)
The Bowhead already uses propulsion mods in the middle slots it already haves. But Large MJD are class restricted so can't be mounted on anything else than Battleships.
A solo escape to a solo mean of ganking is not wrong. It's called balance. It's something different than "If you do PvP, you're good to go; If you dare to PvE, you're ****** and pay for it".
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24782
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:56:34 -
[144] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:It's got nothing to do with prejudice. So how do you explain your apparently prejudiced assumptions about other peopleGÇÖs play styles and what helps and hinders them?
Quote:At the end of the day ganking IMO is already unbalanced and this ruling makes it more so. Yes, ganking is hideously unbalanced. Ganking imposes far too many restrictions and costs on the gankers, and far too few on everyone else unless they go out of their way to make themselves into victims. This ruling does not change the balance in any way GÇö it explicitly maintains the status quo. There simply cannot be any GÇ£moreGÇ¥ (or GÇ£lessGÇ¥) about it.
The fact that you believe that things remaining the same means a change in balance just demonstrates how wrong your entire idea of balance is.
Quote:One thing that worries me is that ganking is cheap, like really cheap. An empty freighter is killboard green by a huge margin, no matter how tanked. So what? ThatGÇÖs what proper balance looks like: a more expensive ship does not grant any kind of special immunity just because itGÇÖs expensive. If it can be killed cheaply, then thatGÇÖs a good thing because it means the designers havenGÇÖt fallen into the trap of thinking that cost relates to balance.
Quote:The old argument against this used to be "but to gank a freighter you need a lot of players and you can't always get a lot of players organised in time". Now it doesn't. Now a gank of any size requires 3 characters. No. A gank of one particular subset of one particular type of targets requires 3 characters. Anything outside of that tiny niche will require far more, same as always. ThatGÇÖs at least 1 more than is required to be completely safe from the same gank. So the same old argument holds as true as it ever did.
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:A solo escape to a solo mean of ganking is not wrong. It's called balance. It's something different than "If you do PvP, you're good to go; If you dare to PvE, you're ****** and pay for it". Solo ganks already have solo means of escape, so we're all set. vOv
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4970
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:58:59 -
[145] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Actually this ruling just maintains the current status quo... Yes and no. It maintainsthe current status quo as in it's not introducing a change, but most gankers either weren't aware or weren't willing to risk doing this. Now that it's officially allowed it's going to become a popular way of ganking, especially for the groups who often struggle to get enough pilots to pull off a freighter gank. It's publicly changed the entry fleet size for a freighter gank down to 3.
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:Please enlighten us with your thoughts on how it is unbalanced
I'd like to see the logic, if any, behind your claim. It's incredibly cheap compared to what you can get out of it. A Solo miner ganker can happily gank at a profit from a very young character. Killing a freighter is always killboard green, which used to be constrained by fleet size requirements but now will not.
The repercussions for ganking are shockingly underwhelming. Bounties are irrelevant as the ships they fly are so cheap. Shooting a ganker is pointelss because both his ship and his pod are usually expendable (even more so now that there's no clone grades). Kill rights are insanely pointelss as gankers can usually be shot anyway, and as previously stated shooting them is pointelss. Sec status and is also irrelevant as you can happily fly everywhere in a pod almost unstoppable as there's no bubbles in highsec and insta-docks/insta-undocks exist. Even if you do want your sec status back it costs less than 400m to go from -10 to 0, not that you'll ever need to as a ganker is more often than not an alt and so isn;t needed for anythign other than ganking.
I'd be more inclined to support ganking if it wasn't for things like hauling being so incredibly boring. A freighter pilot to maintain safety needs to fly actively, tanked (irrelevant now) with at least a couple of other pilots, a scout and a webber. The trip is incredibly slow and painful, which is why jump freighters were introduced to reduce the need freighter esorts (of which I have taken part in many) from killing people slowly.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24782
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:04:12 -
[146] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Killing a freighter is always killboard green, which used to be constrained by fleet size requirements but now will not. No, the green kill board was never constrained by fleet size. What you're talking about is the minimum requirement to kill a maximum unaware target. That minimum was shockingly high before this tactic evolved GÇö now it is in a far better place.
Quote:The repercussions for ganking are shockingly underwhelming. If they are underwhelming, it's because players choose to make them so. That is not a game design problem, but a people problem, and the people creating the problem are the ones who keep crying that someone design the problem away. The thing is, the problem is already designed away GÇö they just refuse to effect that the design.
Quote:I'd be more inclined to support ganking if it wasn't for things like hauling being so incredibly boring. You know, it's not quite as boring if you try to put some effort into outsmarting the dumb ganksGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Janeos
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
59
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:04:44 -
[147] - Quote
So we're not counting all the Cats blasted by Concord into the cost of the gank? Just the one that gets the kill? Constraining them to one character and distributing the lost Catalysts over a span of 10 minutes doesn't make them any cheaper.
Also: Kick SMA. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4970
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:10:54 -
[148] - Quote
Janeos wrote:So we're not counting all the Cats blasted by Concord into the cost of the gank? Just the one that gets the kill? Constraining them to one character and distributing the lost Catalysts over a span of 10 minutes doesn't make them any cheaper. Who was not counting those? A max tank Obelisk takes what? 60m in T1 cats or 210m in T2 cats in a 0.5? That was less of a problem when a large fleet was required to control them. Now that they can be controlled by 1 player, I don;t see how this is any different to the argument about ISBoxer gank fleets being able to be controlled by 1 players requiring no coordination with other players.
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Ned Thomas
Hellbound Turkeys Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects
688
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:13:58 -
[149] - Quote
This thread gon' be long, ain't it?
Vote Sabriz!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24782
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:14:53 -
[150] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Who was not counting those? A max tank Obelisk takes what? 60m in T1 cats or 210m in T2 cats in a 0.5? That was less of a problem when a large fleet was required to control them. Now that they can be controlled by 1 player, I don't see how this is any different to the argument about ISBoxer gank fleets being able to be controlled by 1 players requiring no coordination with other players. How is the size of the problem determined by the size of the fleet?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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