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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 20:16:37 -
[1651] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
I look at reality not what people say it is, there is one Goon ratting carrier killed outside of Deklin in Cloud Ring during Feb.
You look at anything but reality. Come back when you learn what the CFC is not what you think it is.
You are just making yourself look silly now. In all the regions with all the pets you are claiming 42 ratting carriers at around what, 2-3bil a pop killed...
We just showed you that in ONE system in high-sec, a .7 none the less that almost the same number of BS class ships were ganked in the same time. That doesn't include Tengu's, Gilas, Command Ships, Ishtars or anything else used to mission.
You don't think that high-sec is more dangerous than CFC space? Hilarious. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6291
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 20:20:01 -
[1652] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
I look at reality not what people say it is, there is one Goon ratting carrier killed outside of Deklin in Cloud Ring during Feb.
You look at anything but reality. Come back when you learn what the CFC is not what you think it is.
The CFC is basically the highsec of nullsec and the large membership is due to having sold the same dream of carebearing and raking in the ISK that highsec offers. If nullsec was the bubbling cauldron of PVP that good mechanics would make it, provided such a thing existed, CFC would not be so big.
So Dracvlad's observation:
Quote:Ganking is effectively getting in fast killing something that is not able to fight back or avoid the attack and get out fast, the only difference between that in hisec and that in Deklin is that the players are doing the protection and are not as effective as Concord.
I went to Uedama and Niarja to look around and drew this conclusion: you can expect a war of attrition in nullsec and losec where you can get kills and die in a fire. But you can operate under the same presumption in highsec. The only difference in the outcome is that outside of highsec the fire is player-provided while in highsec the fire comes from NPCs.
From looking at local in these highsec regions and the adjacent systems, the levels of fear and knowledge of "who's who" going on is comparable to what I have experienced in NPC nullsec and Old Man Star. There is even an intel channel around what goes on in Uedama and Niarja, just like the kind you would find in nullsec.
It's very impressive to see that CODE. and comparable groups (or cohorts in crime) have established a highsec gank pipeline.
In the end, hyperdunking is just another "thing". An adaptation to game mechanics. Game mechanics that have put predator and prey in the same bottle for the same reasons.
Leading me to conclude on the matter that is we went full carebear in highsec and "blackboxed" all turrets and bays so that they cannot work in the confines of highsec, this would in fact be more of a pro-nullsec move than pro-highsec. The final choice would be "if you want PVP you have to leave highsec." But because nullsec, or the largest coalitions out there, "sell" carebearing and safe farming, grr blue donut and all that, the same people doing the ganking in highsec would not find a paradise of PVP "out there" either. And that's why they are in highsec in the first place. In nullsec you will hunt into an overwhelping force is dropped on you and you die in a fire and the key is to get kills as cheaply as possible (green the killboard) before that happens. In highsec you can hunt with the same ease as that of a mission or incursion runner under the protection of the space police, until you pick out the right target and get a kill exceeding the cost of the kill, and still die in a fire as superior force in the form of NPCs arrives for your actions.
Though with some irony we could then conclude that if the Church of HTFU were to get it's way, they too would find themselves in nullsec looking for targets (there would be far fewer in highsec) but having a much harder time of it, just like a mission runner, miner, or incursioner would if they were trying to do the same stuff in nullsec.
We can observe at this point where the dog is just chasing its tail when making these comparisons. And COHTFU and nullsec agendas trying to hold their breaths and pretend otherwise, as if that's going to change reality, is not going to change what people do. Even the gankers didn't bother to wait for permission any more than the nullbears seek an excuse (we can make fun of them as they swim in oceans of ISK they won't hear us).
After my observation runs I find myself in somewhat of an implied facepalm for not having noticed a highsec gank pipeline so active and full of lively content. Were CCP to have actually had a decent advertising campaign, there would be many white fedoras about. Unfortunately that banner add with the ISK counter climbing through a montage of activities has left us with hordes of people who, if you try to suggest anything other than "make ISK", will flatly say "you don't make ISK doing that", and then go back to their farming in highsec or nullsec (or nullsec mainly unless there's an AFK cloaker so they JC to highsec to run incursions).
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
617
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Posted - 2015.02.21 20:20:44 -
[1653] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
I look at reality not what people say it is, there is one Goon ratting carrier killed outside of Deklin in Cloud Ring during Feb.
You look at anything but reality. Come back when you learn what the CFC is not what you think it is.
Why would I care what you think, you have already proved to me that your posts are full of distortions and propaganda, if you told me it was dark outside I would go check.
Ella's Snack bar
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15069
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 20:53:06 -
[1654] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
You are just making yourself look silly now. In all the regions with all the pets you are claiming 42 ratting carriers at around what, 2-3bil a pop killed...
We just showed you that in ONE system in high-sec, a .7 none the less that almost the same number of BS class ships were ganked in the same time. That doesn't include Tengu's, Gilas, Command Ships, Ishtars or anything else used to mission.
You don't think that high-sec is more dangerous than CFC space? Hilarious.
And as I said, a highsec mission system has the same population as our entire region. We cant stuff 300 ratters in a system, most cant even handle 10. So when we look at our population vs a high sec mission system we see huge losses in null for damn near none in the highsec mission hub. Remember, ganking is the only way you can get most of these mission runners. A handful of idiots undocking into a wardec does not make highsec more dangerous than null.
216 things were killed in your mission hub over the last month. Goonwaffe alone has killed 111 more targets in dek in that time, more has died in dek today than in the last 4 days in your mission hub even when we add in all of mobile structures and concorded ships. So, a similar population in both areas and we see a huge difference in kills. High sec being more dangerous is nothing but a lie.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2689
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 21:54:08 -
[1655] - Quote
One has to wonder why we rarely get people from low-sec complaining about risk vs reward , since we are talking about the most utterly **** risk vs reward in that part of space....
Ow sorry nevermind that , sorry i'm actually making sense , let's keep the high-sec vs null-sec income going ...
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
618
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 22:17:35 -
[1656] - Quote
flakeys wrote:One has to wonder why we rarely get people from low-sec complaining about risk vs reward , since we are talking about the most utterly **** risk vs reward in that part of space.... Ow sorry nevermind that , sorry i'm actually making sense , let's keep the high-sec vs null-sec income going ...
That is simple its where the real PvP'rs are, people who shoot each other and don't pretend that they do and go all HTFU on the forums.
Ella's Snack bar
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 23:02:59 -
[1657] - Quote
flakeys wrote:One has to wonder why we rarely get people from low-sec complaining about risk vs reward , since we are talking about the most utterly **** risk vs reward in that part of space.... Ow sorry nevermind that , sorry i'm actually making sense , let's keep the high-sec vs null-sec income going ...
I spent a long time living in Hophib and Fob before moving to a wormhole... I wholeheartedly agree. low sec needs help. it has nothing to offer that high sec has to offer and is second in riskiness only to WH space.
In this thread you have a collection of panzi-candi-a$$ gankers who cant make it pvping so they shoot things with no highslots, and null-sec dwellers that want to pretend they don't live in the blue donut of wealth... sad really, now that we are on the topic they are saying somethings that completely contradict their argument for hyperdunking and ganking in the first place. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 23:26:32 -
[1658] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
You are just making yourself look silly now. In all the regions with all the pets you are claiming 42 ratting carriers at around what, 2-3bil a pop killed...
We just showed you that in ONE system in high-sec, a .7 none the less that almost the same number of BS class ships were ganked in the same time. That doesn't include Tengu's, Gilas, Command Ships, Ishtars or anything else used to mission.
You don't think that high-sec is more dangerous than CFC space? Hilarious.
And as I said, a highsec mission system has the same population as our entire region. We cant stuff 300 ratters in a system, most cant even handle 10. So when we look at our population vs a high sec mission system we see huge losses in null for damn near none in the highsec mission hub. Remember, ganking is the only way you can get most of these mission runners. A handful of idiots undocking into a wardec does not make highsec more dangerous than null. 216 things were killed in your mission hub over the last month. Goonwaffe alone has killed 111 more targets in dek in that time, more has died in dek today than in the last 4 days in your mission hub even when we add in all of mobile structures and concorded ships. So, a similar population in both areas and we see a huge difference in kills. High sec being more dangerous is nothing but a lie.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44763183/
For the record you can stop counting carriers killed by NPCs only lol. Being bad at PVE has nothing to do with PVP lol |
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11870
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 23:41:26 -
[1659] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: High sec being more dangerous is nothing but a lie.
And that's the crux of the matter, right there.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 23:54:29 -
[1660] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:baltec1 wrote: High sec being more dangerous is nothing but a lie. And that's the crux of the matter, right there.
What that you guys are lying to us and yourselves?
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2015-02
You can stop talking out your bums now. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11870
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 23:57:31 -
[1661] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:baltec1 wrote: High sec being more dangerous is nothing but a lie. And that's the crux of the matter, right there. What that you guys are lying to us and yourselves?
No, that you people think that if you lie often enough about highsec supposedly being dangerous, that eventually CCP will believe it, despite having the literal stats that show it for the lie that it is.
Why do carebears lie so much, anyway?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:00:32 -
[1662] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:baltec1 wrote: High sec being more dangerous is nothing but a lie. And that's the crux of the matter, right there. What that you guys are lying to us and yourselves? No, that you people think that if you lie often enough about highsec supposedly being dangerous, that eventually CCP will believe it, despite having the literal stats that show it for the lie that it is. Why do carebears lie so much, anyway?
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2015-02
You can check it for the entirety of last year too: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2014
There are more ship kills in High than anywhere, Low next, Null last. Null also had almost as many faction npc kills as highsec. Most dangerous region of space: Forge, followed by Black Rise and Citadel.
You wanted stats, now put your money where your mouth is and admit you were wrong. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23054
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:01:16 -
[1663] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:baltec1 wrote: High sec being more dangerous is nothing but a lie. And that's the crux of the matter, right there. What that you guys are lying to us and yourselves? http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2015-02 You can stop talking out your bums now. You're failing to take population density into account, on a per capita basis highsec is extremely safe when compared to elsewhere.
"Remember, as a non-combatant, your best tank is being elsewhere." ~ Abrazzar
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11870
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:04:06 -
[1664] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: You wanted stats, now put your money where your mouth is and admit you were wrong.
Congrats, you're using 2 months of the year and making an error that a 3 week Statistics 101 student would laugh at.
Here's the real story, from CCP themselves no less.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65749/1/productionVsDestruction_2013.png
Now put your money where your mouth is, and admit that you lied.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:05:32 -
[1665] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:baltec1 wrote: High sec being more dangerous is nothing but a lie. And that's the crux of the matter, right there. What that you guys are lying to us and yourselves? http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2015-02 You can stop talking out your bums now. You're failing to take population density into account, on a per capita basis highsec is extremely safe when compared to elsewhere.
You are forgetting to take context into account. You have no idea how many people do or do not undock in Highsec. And you have no idea how many people do or do not travel to and from each security area. So in context to what we are discussing it doesn't matter.
What does matter is, on a NPC kill / Ship kill ratio, Null is safest as there are a lot of NPC kills and little ship kills.
Also interesting to note that going back to 2010,2011, 2012, 2013 we see an ever increase in Null NPC kill rates while Highsec has been decreasing every year... which contradicts the statements that Highsec income is too great when people are preferring to kill npcs in null over Highsec. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:06:44 -
[1666] - Quote
That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Production does not equal anything into this discussion. Besides most of that production was for Null sec anyways... You don't even know what you are looking at in that picture do you |
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11870
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:09:31 -
[1667] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Production does not equal anything into this discussion.
Try reading the right side of the graph.
Quote: Besides most of that production was for Null sec anyways...
And you're confirmed in your dedication to your lie.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:16:53 -
[1668] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Production does not equal anything into this discussion.
Try reading the right side of the graph. Quote: Besides most of that production was for Null sec anyways...
And you're confirmed in your dedication to your lie.
Protip... the biggest bubbles are the places with the most destruction in that image... and those are in HIGHSEC
While the left side is completely irrelevant, the right side proves my point. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11870
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:20:12 -
[1669] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: Protip... the biggest bubbles are the places with the most destruction in that image... and those are in HIGHSEC
Specifically, Jita, Amarr, a couple of their outlying systems, and not much else.
If weren't for a handful of systems, literally less than a dozen, highsec would have functionally zero loss compared to everywhere else in the game.
Please, cry more.
Quote: While the left side is completely irrelevant
Then why were you blathering on about it, while lying about how the left side shows more production in null than in high, when that is obviously and observably another lie?
Stop lying.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:23:33 -
[1670] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: Protip... the biggest bubbles are the places with the most destruction in that image... and those are in HIGHSEC
Specifically, Jita, Amarr, a couple of their outlying systems, and not much else. If weren't for a handful of systems, literally less than a dozen, highsec would have functionally zero loss compared to everywhere else in the game. Please, cry more. Quote: While the left side is completely irrelevant
Then why were you blathering on about it, while lying about how the left side shows more production in null than in high, when that is obviously and observably another lie? Stop lying.
The biggest bubbles for destruction include Uedema, Niarja, Osmon, Josameto and then we start to get down to numbers for places like M-O and HED-GP... Regardless, I have the actual stats for the whole security area and they are far higher than Null too.
I never said production was done IN null, I said it was done FOR null... learn2read |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23055
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:23:43 -
[1671] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:You are forgetting to take context into account. You have no idea how many people do or do not undock in Highsec. And you have no idea how many people do or do not travel to and from each security area. So in context to what we are discussing it doesn't matter. Your point is what? Population density is a valid metric that you appear to have disregarded because it doesn't suit your argument.
IIRC 75% of characters reside in highsec, regardless of whether or not they undock or travel to other security areas that figure has to be taken into account when judging how safe highsec is. Not doing so is disingenuous at best.
I stand by my point, on a per capita basis the chances of having your space canoe violenced is extremely low in highsec.
Quote:What does matter is, on a NPC kill / Ship kill ratio, Null is safest as there are a lot of NPC kills and little ship kills.
Also interesting to note that going back to 2010,2011, 2012, 2013 we see an ever increase in Null NPC kill rates while Highsec has been decreasing every year... which contradicts the statements that Highsec income is too great when people are preferring to kill npcs in null over Highsec. I mission in highsec, amongst other things; highsec bounties and mission rewards aren't where the money is. Most of my mission income comes from the LP stores, as such I don't kill every rat, just the ones I need to; in short, like many others I go for maximum returns in the shortest time period.
Nullsec rats tend to pay better than highsec ones too.
"Remember, as a non-combatant, your best tank is being elsewhere." ~ Abrazzar
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:29:46 -
[1672] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:You are forgetting to take context into account. You have no idea how many people do or do not undock in Highsec. And you have no idea how many people do or do not travel to and from each security area. So in context to what we are discussing it doesn't matter. Your point is what? Population density is a valid metric that you appear to have disregarded because it doesn't suit your argument. IIRC 75% of characters reside in highsec, regardless of whether or not they undock or travel to other security areas that figure has to be taken into account when judging how safe highsec is. Not doing so is disingenuous at best. I stand by my point, on a per capita basis the chances of having your space canoe violenced is extremely low in highsec. Quote:What does matter is, on a NPC kill / Ship kill ratio, Null is safest as there are a lot of NPC kills and little ship kills.
Also interesting to note that going back to 2010,2011, 2012, 2013 we see an ever increase in Null NPC kill rates while Highsec has been decreasing every year... which contradicts the statements that Highsec income is too great when people are preferring to kill npcs in null over Highsec. I mission in highsec, amongst other things; highsec bounties and mission rewards aren't where the money is. Most of my mission income comes from the LP stores, as such I don't kill every rat, just the ones I need to; in short, like many others I go for maximum returns in the shortest time period. Nullsec rats tend to pay better than highsec ones too.
Do me a favor, open your in game map... zoom out. Go to statistics and click average number of players... take note
Now do the same, but this time click docked and active... watch the red blobs appear.
You can't lose a ship in a station. Regardless, more ships die per NPC kill in highsec. You want to talk about Kills per Jump, you might have an argument to make, but even then, the numbers aren't gonna help you much. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11871
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:37:09 -
[1673] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: I never said production was done IN null, I said it was done FOR null.
How is production done for null if your lie claims that they lose so much less ships?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:42:00 -
[1674] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: I never said production was done IN null, I said it was done FOR null.
How is production done for null if your lie claims that they lose so much less ships?
Because the only thing made in this game is ships right? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11871
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:45:57 -
[1675] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: I never said production was done IN null, I said it was done FOR null.
How is production done for null if your lie claims that they lose so much less ships? Because the only thing made in this game is ships right?
Nice try. You can't even keep your lies straight anymore. Just give up dude.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23059
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 00:53:46 -
[1676] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Do me a favor, open your in game map... zoom out. Go to statistics and click average number of players... take note
Now do the same, but this time click docked and active... watch the red blobs appear. The average number of players in space is taken over 30 minutes whereas the number docked and active is a current figure, as such the data is inherently skewed.
Point of fact I dock up multiple times an hour, normally to get a new mission, imagine how much that skews the data when you apply it to everybody that also runs missions.
Quote:You can't lose a ship in a station. State the obvious why don't you.
Quote: Regardless, more ships die per NPC kill in highsec. You want to talk about Kills per Jump, you might have an argument to make, but even then, the numbers aren't gonna help you much. If you play the statistics game in terms of highsec safety specifically relating to player on player violence you should disregard all kills by NPCs.
Newbie systems will have quite a high number of players dying to NPCs, due to the 2 tutorial missions that require your ship to explode for completion.
I would wager that the majority of kills in the highsec chokepoints are courtesy of Concord, suicide gankers are forced to use numbers to succeed, as such they lose multiple ships for every kill they make.
Do me a favour, when you choose to use statistics to make your point, don't disregard any relevant data or choose to ignore that the data is skewed due to game mechanics and collection methods.
"Remember, as a non-combatant, your best tank is being elsewhere." ~ Abrazzar
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Valterra Craven
491
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Posted - 2015.02.22 01:05:28 -
[1677] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:admit that you lied.
You and baltec really need to come up with better ways to talk to people. Or, at the very least find more apt words. Or maybe even more varied ones. I bet if I counted how many times you guys have used the word lie or lied in this thread it would equal or surpass the number of code's ganks during their primary tz. Seriously though, about the only credible word you could use is maybe "delusional", or "miss-informed", oh oh what about "self-deceived"... |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 01:17:27 -
[1678] - Quote
http://evelostfound.blogspot.com/2015/01/is-pve-safer-in-high-sec-or-null-sec.html
This was a very nice and recent analysis using not only ship death/npc ratios but also ship death value.
Their conclusion? Null PVE is completely broken because of how safe it is. Even the worst people at defending their ratters (CFC) were more than 3x safer in terms of real isk value than comparable highsec systems. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15075
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 01:32:21 -
[1679] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:admit that you lied. You and baltec really need to come up with better ways to talk to people. Or, at the very least find more apt words. Or maybe even more varied ones. I bet if I counted how many times you guys have used the word lie or lied in this thread it would equal or surpass the number of code's ganks during their primary tz. Seriously though, about the only credible word you could use is maybe "delusional", or "miss-informed", oh oh what about "self-deceived"...
Why call a lie anything other than what it is?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11871
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 01:33:40 -
[1680] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Why call a lie anything other than what it is?
Because it hurts their feelings when they called out on their bullshit.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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