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Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:06:45 -
[1] - Quote
Pod pilots like us have skills electronically pumped into our brains 24/7, for years at a time. What effect does this have on the pilot's personality and sanity? It would add some flair to the game if skill training gradually rendered the pilot's visible avatar less human-like, becoming more mechanical or ghoulish looking (like the Jovians?) or perhaps they occasionally mutter disturbing thoughts in corp/fleet chat involuntarily.
From a gameplay perspective, it would be interesting very old, high-SP characters might acquire some neurological disabilities that require boosters or other tradeable items to mitigate. This would open up new professions catering to the needs of advanced pod pilots, and perhaps give long time players a logical reason to reroll and start fresh. |
Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
118
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:18:13 -
[2] - Quote
Because eve needs more reasons to not bother keeping a 100+m sp character subbed
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1733
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:18:16 -
[3] - Quote
"oh hey, lets introduce a mechanic that arbitrarily nerfs characters that are older because they are older"
this isnt WoW, the whole point of being able to train everything is so you DONT ever have to "reroll", as for the "long term side effects", there arent any.
The jovians have there issues because they got happy with genetics and did some stupid things, capsuleers are cybernetic, the parts of the brain connected to the port for storing information have almost NOTHING to do with the parts of the brain that determine personality/morals/basic human behaviours/etc
and capsuleers ARE insane, but not from their tech, but because they have a LITERAL god complex, they are immortal, someone pisses them off, they kill them, their family, their neighborhood, their continent, and then their planet, art of not being seen on a scale you cant even imagine, and if they fail they just wake up tomorrow and try again.
so lore wise and mechanic wise this would be a silly idea. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8666
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:33:06 -
[4] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:the pilot's visible avatar less human-like, becoming more mechanical or ghoulish looking (like the Jovians?) or perhaps they occasionally mutter disturbing thoughts in corp/fleet chat involuntarily.
Any parent that plays eve already suffers all of these.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
928
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Posted - 2015.01.27 20:44:33 -
[5] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Drez Arthie wrote:the pilot's visible avatar less human-like, becoming more mechanical or ghoulish looking (like the Jovians?) or perhaps they occasionally mutter disturbing thoughts in corp/fleet chat involuntarily.
Any parent that plays eve already suffers all of these.
And most pilots already behave psychotically/neurotically :D |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
35
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:03:27 -
[6] - Quote
If I totted up all of the crews in all of the pirate ships I have killed in my career, I expect I'd have over 1 million souls to answer for.
Face it, capsuleers are a separate society with its own morals and values, different and apart from the normals. By the standards of that society, we're all fairly normal. |
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:08:44 -
[7] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:"oh hey, lets introduce a mechanic that arbitrarily nerfs characters that are older because they are older"
It's not meant to nerf old characters so much as tax them; something that allows wealth to flow from older characters to new ones, and symbolically challenges the EVE cultural notion that an older character is superior in all ways to a newbie. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3343
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:23:38 -
[8] - Quote
Why do older characters need this kind of nonsensical "tax"? How will this make any kind of so-called wealth "flow from older characters to new ones" as you put it?
Is it that players with older characters will become quite fed up with the ridiculousness that you have forced upon them, distribute all their assets to someone else and quit the game? Is that what you're hoping to achieve?
Or perhaps you envision a future where the wealth accumulated by old characters stays firmly locked in the hands of the player who has earned that wealth as it flows from an old character into a new alt.
As far as the "older characters are superior" silliness, that isn't a mentality EVE has created; it's a thing people bring with them from other games. That mentality doesn't need to be "challenged" - it's already patently false the minute you arrive in New Eden. It's the players who need to update their mindset in accordance with their new environment, not the environment that needs to update itself in accordance wit the mindset of the players.
So I ask my initial two questions again:
Why do older characters need this kind of nonsensical "tax"? How will this make any kind of so-called wealth "flow from older characters to new ones" as you put it?
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Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:31:28 -
[9] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Why do older characters need this kind of nonsensical "tax"? How will this make any kind of so-called wealth "flow from older characters to new ones" as you put it?
1) This is not for the benefit of older characters at all.
2) Wealth will flow to new characters if the activities to produce the "anti-aging" items are time consuming, require few skills, and earn less ISK/hr than an advanced character can earn in other activities. |
voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
335
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:39:27 -
[10] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Why do older characters need this kind of nonsensical "tax"? How will this make any kind of so-called wealth "flow from older characters to new ones" as you put it?
1) This is not for the benefit of older characters at all. 2) Wealth will flow to new characters if the activities to produce the "anti-aging" items are time consuming, require few skills, and earn less ISK/hr than an advanced character can earn in other activities.
Why should wealth be re-distributed from older players to newer players?
If you think that's a good idea, why shouldn't wealth be distributed from wealthier players to less wealthier players?
How do you evaluate "wealth"? ISK in wallet? (look up fiat currency)
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3344
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:39:53 -
[11] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Why do older characters need this kind of nonsensical "tax"? How will this make any kind of so-called wealth "flow from older characters to new ones" as you put it?
1) This is not for the benefit of older characters at all. 2) Wealth will flow to new characters if the activities to produce the "anti-aging" items are time consuming, require few skills, and earn less ISK/hr than an advanced character can earn in other activities. So basically you just want to punish people for being long-time EVE players.
How exactly does that seem like a good idea to you? |
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1734
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:43:07 -
[12] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Why do older characters need this kind of nonsensical "tax"? How will this make any kind of so-called wealth "flow from older characters to new ones" as you put it?
1) This is not for the benefit of older characters at all. 2) Wealth will flow to new characters if the activities to produce the "anti-aging" items are time consuming, require few skills, and earn less ISK/hr than an advanced character can earn in other activities. except it wont earn less ISK/hr, if it was cheap every new player would be getting out of it as fast as possible, which means no one would be producing, which means the price goes up, which makes it higher isk/hr, which means even older players will do it.
besides, clone costs were removed explicitly BECAUSE CCP considered them "a tax on older players", so i dotn see how this is any different
(and again, why should an older character be FORCED to buy these drugs just to stay at the same performance level of a newer character with the same skills in a given field, for no reason other than "theyre older so they must be punished"?) |
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:43:36 -
[13] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:...
The jovians have there issues because they got happy with genetics and did some stupid things, capsuleers are cybernetic, the parts of the brain connected to the port for storing information have almost NOTHING to do with the parts of the brain that determine personality/morals/basic human behaviours/etc
and capsuleers ARE insane, but not from their tech, but because they have a LITERAL god complex, they are immortal, someone pisses them off, they kill them, their family, their neighborhood, their continent, and then their planet, art of not being seen on a scale you cant even imagine, and if they fail they just wake up tomorrow and try again.
....
Good point, that capsuleers' god complex has a background in lore, whereas skill-induced insanity does not. An alternative then:
As skill points increase beyond a certain level, the pilot is increasingly unwelcome in empire space, as the NPC empire leaders feel their own power threatened. In time, advanced pilots must leave high sec for low sec, and then for null. EVE is based on the risk vs. reward formula, thus the inherent capacity for rewards with high SP should be balanced by an inherent risk.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2235
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:45:16 -
[14] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:, and perhaps give long time players a logical reason to reroll and start fresh.
First, why? Please tell me why, in the name of satans ball-bag, do long time players need a logical reason to reroll and start fresh?
Second, this will not work like you think it will. In fact i think its likely you've no idea how a free market works. Why wouldnt an older player just take it upon themselves to create these items? it wont take long for him to train the necessary skills, and it will be simple to do if not completely passive. Doesnt matter if it doesnt make much isk, he'll save isk by doing it himself rather than importing from noobs.
If its complex, intensive AND time consuming, this is the hell you want to put new players through? you want people to play this game right?
Third, what ungodly MMO have you come from?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3344
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:46:58 -
[15] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:Nariya Kentaya wrote:...
The jovians have there issues because they got happy with genetics and did some stupid things, capsuleers are cybernetic, the parts of the brain connected to the port for storing information have almost NOTHING to do with the parts of the brain that determine personality/morals/basic human behaviours/etc
and capsuleers ARE insane, but not from their tech, but because they have a LITERAL god complex, they are immortal, someone pisses them off, they kill them, their family, their neighborhood, their continent, and then their planet, art of not being seen on a scale you cant even imagine, and if they fail they just wake up tomorrow and try again.
.... Good point, that capsuleers' god complex has a background in lore, whereas skill-induced insanity does not. An alternative then: As skill points increase beyond a certain level, the pilot is increasingly unwelcome in empire space, as the NPC empire leaders feel their own power threatened. In time, advanced pilots must leave high sec for low sec, and then for null. EVE is based on the risk vs. reward formula, thus the inherent capacity for rewards with high SP should be balanced by an inherent risk.
Here's where your new approach falls flat: CCP Seagull herself has stated that as part of the current development arc, the capsuleers are now threatening the powers of highsec and will begin to take over what the NPC governments once controlled. It's mentioned in the "Origins" trailer. Highsec POCOs were a starting point of this arc and as far as I understand player-owned stargates (so far, stargate technology has been firmly held by the empires) will be the culmination of it. What other parts of highsec we take over along the way are beyond my willingness to speculate.
In the end it won't be us who fly in Empire at their mercy - it will be they who fly in highsec because we allow them to. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2235
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:53:07 -
[16] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:thus the inherent capacity for rewards with high SP should be balanced by an inherent risk.
Come again?
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
you think having high SP automatically makes you richer. Good thing you are now playing an MMO where high wealth is not a result of high SP.
edit- you can blitz SoE level 4's long before 100mil SP.
you can run incursions long before 100mil SP.
you can rat in WH's long before 100mil SP.
you can rat in null long before you have 100mil SP.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:53:40 -
[17] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: why? Please tell me why [... ] do long time players need a logical reason to reroll and start fresh?
(customary ad hominem attacks and sexual/violent imagery omitted)
More new characters developing at any given time gives genuinely new players someone to play with, and gives long-time players something to do besides preying on newbies. Both could improve new player retention. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3344
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Posted - 2015.01.27 21:53:52 -
[18] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Drez Arthie wrote:thus the inherent capacity for rewards with high SP should be balanced by an inherent risk.
Come again? ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you think having high SP automatically makes you richer. Good thing you are now playing an MMO where wealth is not a result of SP.
Posting to confirm that my wealth is the result of selling PLEX for almost a billion ISK each, not of having years' worth of SP. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2237
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:03:20 -
[19] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: why? Please tell me why [... ] do long time players need a logical reason to reroll and start fresh?
(customary ad hominem attacks and sexual/violent imagery omitted) More new characters developing at any given time gives genuinely new players someone to play with, and gives long-time players something to do besides preying on newbies. Both could improve new player retention.
words cannot describe how much youve misunderstood this game.
In eve, new players prey on older pilots.
Get a frig, get yourself into a PvP corp, whelp some 8 yr old player.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8668
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:03:25 -
[20] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote: why? Please tell me why [... ] do long time players need a logical reason to reroll and start fresh?
(customary ad hominem attacks and sexual/violent imagery omitted) More new characters developing at any given time gives genuinely new players someone to play with, and gives long-time players something to do besides preying on newbies. Both could improve new player retention. we make a point of playing with the new players, whether they enjoy the experience is of little concern, this is exactly how i treat my peers and how i treated them when i started.
lowering the sp average will not effect anything other than to **** off the vets who have kept this game healthy till you and i found it.
Bad nubie, get back in your box!
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Lugh Crow-Slave
608
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:12:28 -
[21] - Quote
so how would my new clone be pre-deteriorated?
Fuel block colors
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Emperor Norton
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:14:35 -
[22] - Quote
I find your idea repulsive OP. Go back to your filthy Gallente hovel. |
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:15:15 -
[23] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: we make a point of playing with the new players, whether they enjoy the experience is of little concern, this is exactly how i treat my peers and how i treated them when i started.
lowering the sp average will not effect anything other than to **** off the vets who have kept this game healthy till you and i found it.
Bad nubie, get back in your box!
A newbie years ago didn't face as wide an experience gap as today. If one has been playing EVE for 10 years, there was no character 10 years their senior in the game when they first started. The reason to introduce new mechanics to compensate for veteran vs. newbie imbalance is because the imbalance is greater now than it has ever been. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3348
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:20:52 -
[24] - Quote
Please. Try. To understand.
There is no "imbalance" except the one you have created in your mind. This perceived problem exists solely within your head - and the heads of all others like you who have come to EVE from games where these imbalances do exist.
I have 70 million skillpoints, but how many of those do you suppose benefit me when I'm flying a Rifter or cloaked in my Cheetah scanning down wormholes? A mere fraction of my skillpoints are ever useful at any given time. A fraction small enough that a new player could easily pick one of the things I do and train to the same level I'm currently at in a fraction of the time I've spent playing.
Your notions of "older players are better and new players are forever behind them" don't work here. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2237
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:22:35 -
[25] - Quote
how does your idea solve that imbalance? you said its low isk/h. so its not going to solve the economic crisis of the noob.
what DOES help noobs however, is older players with their wealth. handing out free ships, skills and guidance.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:33:26 -
[26] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:how does your idea solve that imbalance? you said its low isk/h. so its not going to solve the economic crisis of the noob.
what DOES help noobs however, is older players with their wealth. handing out free ships, skills and guidance.
On consideration, your first point is correct. Market mechanics would either raise the price and induce old characters to make their own treatments, or leave prices low and noobs get little income from it. The idea is flawed.
Your point two is also agreed; that's common sense.
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Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:40:23 -
[27] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Please. Try. To understand.
There is no "imbalance" except the one you have created in your mind. This perceived problem exists solely within your head - and the heads of all others like you who have come to EVE from games where these imbalances do exist.
I have 70 million skillpoints, but how many of those do you suppose benefit me when I'm flying a Rifter or cloaked in my Cheetah scanning down wormholes? A mere fraction of my skillpoints are ever useful at any given time. A fraction small enough that a new player could easily pick one of the things I do and train to the same level I'm currently at in a fraction of the time I've spent playing.
Your notions of "older players are better and new players are forever behind them" don't work here.
You are right, there is an effective plateau to skill points' value in any one area. On further thought, it is not really skill points at all that cause the imbalance I'm thinking of. It's the combination of social contacts and player knowledge that really give vets the edge, neither of which can be re-balanced by any change to game mechanics.
Back to the drawing board.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
608
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:41:17 -
[28] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:reroll and start fresh.
Eve is about living whith the consequences of your choices some even years after you make that choice nothing should ever promote starting fresh
Fuel block colors
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3349
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Posted - 2015.01.27 22:43:29 -
[29] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote: On further thought, it is not really skill points at all that cause the imbalance I'm thinking of. It's the combination of social contacts and player knowledge that really give vets the edge, neither of which can be re-balanced by any change to game mechanics.
Back to the drawing board.
You will find that this exists in every multiplayer game as well as outside in real life. |
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2015.01.27 23:14:11 -
[30] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
You will find that this exists in every multiplayer game as well as outside in real life.
Real life does has its own "rebalancing" mechanism though, and mine gets closer every year.
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