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Nakovi Kitsune
Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly Events
5
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Posted - 2015.01.27 23:24:20 -
[1] - Quote
Guns have tracking computers and tracking modules to help them out. Have the devs ever given thought to modules that would help with missile velocity and explosion radius? As it stands, you are limited to rigs for this.
Or did they decide that missiles are already too easy and we should live with it, which would be totally reasonable. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
930
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Posted - 2015.01.27 23:28:58 -
[2] - Quote
nice idea but then the base stats would have to be nerfed significantly. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
882
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Posted - 2015.01.27 23:42:14 -
[3] - Quote
The only thing missiles really need is a general buff to flight speed and a cosponsoring nerf to flight time. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
203
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Posted - 2015.01.28 00:43:56 -
[4] - Quote
Seems they thought about having tracking dirupters affect them first and then people pointed out the concern you raised. Soon after they left the issue for lower hanging fruit.
I expect they will revisit missiles (esp heavy missiles) and missile application ,ods in the next ten years
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words.
Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions.
Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character.
And character is everything. - author unknown
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
914
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Posted - 2015.01.28 00:59:34 -
[5] - Quote
There is an implant that helps negate the targets speed, as it affects explosion radius. Target Painters also help to bloom the target.
Missiles are very good at hitting 'like sized' targets. And selectable damage is a plus.
I do think that Heavies are a bit under-whelming at this time. No matter what size your target is, they do less DPS than most other weapon systems. |
Nalia White
Tencus
65
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Posted - 2015.01.28 14:34:45 -
[6] - Quote
they do indeed have boosting modules (to be fair they work for other weapon platforms too).
Target painters and webs. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
1836
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Posted - 2015.01.28 14:55:30 -
[7] - Quote
Target painters. Rigor rigs. Flare rigs. Fuel cache rigs. Hydraulic bay thruster rigs. Missile implants. Crash Boosters. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
931
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Posted - 2015.01.28 19:39:03 -
[8] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Target painters. Rigor rigs. Flare rigs. Fuel cache rigs. Hydraulic bay thruster rigs. Missile implants. Crash Boosters.
while this is all true, turrets benefit from all those as well AND direct module upgrades. |
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
101
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Posted - 2015.01.28 21:23:35 -
[9] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Target painters. Rigor rigs. Flare rigs. Fuel cache rigs. Hydraulic bay thruster rigs. Missile implants. Crash Boosters. while this is all true, turrets benefit from all those as well AND direct module upgrades.
All the items in that list help missiles, the only one in that list that helps turrets is the target painter.
I know you know, I think you misspoke.
-Kirst
Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
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Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
566
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Posted - 2015.01.28 22:24:15 -
[10] - Quote
Nakovi Kitsune wrote:Guns have tracking computers and tracking modules to help them out. Have the devs ever given thought to modules that would help with missile velocity and explosion radius? As it stands, you are limited to rigs for this.
Or did they decide that missiles are already too easy and we should live with it, which would be totally reasonable. Rigs and implants. Did you forget the implants?
Life is short and dinner time is chancy
Eat dessert first!
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Nakovi Kitsune
Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly Events
5
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Posted - 2015.01.28 22:55:28 -
[11] - Quote
Forgot to mention implants. My point is that every gun system has implants and rigs as well, in addition to specific modules.
Long story short, I'm disappointed with the tengu and nighthawk's ability to apply damage to fast cruisers outside web range. Heavy missiles suffer badly from explosion velocity.
And yes, I'm aware that the answer i'll generally get here is "well just use another ship." I can, and have, but wondered about the lack of missile modules in the process. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
249
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Posted - 2015.01.29 01:42:46 -
[12] - Quote
Nakovi Kitsune wrote:Forgot to mention implants. My point is that every gun system has implants and rigs as well, in addition to specific modules.
Long story short, I'm disappointed with the tengu and nighthawk's ability to apply damage to fast cruisers outside web range. Heavy missiles suffer badly from explosion velocity.
And yes, I'm aware that the answer i'll generally get here is "well just use another ship." I can, and have, but wondered about the lack of missile modules in the process.
I wouldn't worry too much, it's probably on the (distant) horizon. I made a thread on the F&I forum about a year ago that got a dev response that essentially said it's something they're looking at. Even with the faster dev cycle, things are slow to happen and we've just got to be patient. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
913
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Posted - 2015.01.29 05:42:21 -
[13] - Quote
heavy missiles got "hyperdunked" and then everything else got boosted. tbh I don't really ever remember heavies being all that good, it was just something people could fly and not need to think so it got used quite a bit.
I'll join the chorus asking CCP, don't take my fancy names away from me!
In the name of the Limos, the Malkuth, and the Arbalest, so help me pod
- Mara Rinn
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Soldarius
Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent
1063
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Posted - 2015.01.29 16:00:44 -
[14] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:nice idea but then the base stats would have to be nerfed significantly.
Completely untrue. You cannot get more than the paper dps out of missiles. Ever. The damage formula hard-limits it to 100% of potential damage. If, on the other hand, you were to say missiles would have to be rebalanced again, that I would agree with.
The closest CCP has ever come to OP's idea was to try turning Tracking Disruptors into Weapon Disruptors by adding missile application penalties to the items on sisi. For some reason the effects did not apply. It flat out didn't work. I'd be very curious to know what about the attempt failed. I honestly don't know why. But if I had to guess, I would imagine it has to do with the way the turret modifiers are applied versus how the missile modifiers are applied. Missiles are physical objects in space with their own stats. But they get those stats from base stats * skill modifiers * hull modifiers just like turrets. So... idk.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Agent Unknown
Night Theifs DamnedNation
9
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Posted - 2015.01.29 16:04:27 -
[15] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:nice idea but then the base stats would have to be nerfed significantly. Completely untrue. You cannot get more than the paper dps out of missiles. Ever. The damage formula hard-limits it to 100% of potential damage. If, on the other hand, you were to say missiles would have to be rebalanced again, that I would agree with. The closest CCP has ever come to OP's idea was to try turning Tracking Disruptors into Weapon Disruptors by adding missile application penalties to the items on sisi. For some reason the effects did not apply. It flat out didn't work. I'd be very curious to know what about the attempt failed. I honestly don't know why. But if I had to guess, I would imagine it has to do with the way the turret modifiers are applied versus how the missile modifiers are applied. Missiles are physical objects in space with their own stats. But they get those stats from base stats * skill modifiers * hull modifiers just like turrets. So... idk.
This is likely because of a bug that currently affects Marauders (the Golem, specifically) with Bastion. Bastion improves missile stats, but if it stops/starts while missiles are on grid they disappear. I'd imagine this would be rampantly abused if Weapon Disruptors were around. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1420
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Posted - 2015.01.29 16:43:49 -
[16] - Quote
Ion Kirst wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Target painters. Rigor rigs. Flare rigs. Fuel cache rigs. Hydraulic bay thruster rigs. Missile implants. Crash Boosters. while this is all true, turrets benefit from all those as well AND direct module upgrades. All the items in that list help missiles, the only one in that list that helps turrets is the target painter. I know you know, I think you misspoke. -Kirst
All items in that list have a direct counterpart in the TURRETRIG section All the missile affecting implants have a direct counterpart in the TURRETIMPLANT section
The Target Painter is an e-war module
part of the problem is that whilst weapon base properties can be loosely correlated turrets and missiles are similar in the same way cheese and granite are those differences have been gone over ad nauseum until most people are tired of rereading them
al I want for my missile boat is a module that affects either explosion velocity or explosion radius 1 of each would be sweet a module that modifies the attributes of MY ship, not the target ship
why does everyone and his dog make this sound like too big of an ask |
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
1838
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Posted - 2015.01.29 17:50:24 -
[17] - Quote
Target painters quite simply trump the need for any kind of missile tracking computers. Unheated they boost damage application by 38%. They help everyone in the fleet. They only cost 16 CPU to fit. A tracking computer with tracking script only boosts by 30% and costs 35 CPU to fit.
Missile formula:
Speed a target must exceed to begin to mitigate missile damage = (explosion velocity * target signature radius) / explosion radius.
A Caracal with perfect skills and armed with Heavies - 122 m/s explosion velocity and 105m explosion radius. Shooting at a normal sized cruiser (125m) using a MWD (*6)
750 * 122 / 105 = 871m/s. A joke.
Add two overheated TP and you essentially double the targets signature. 750 * 1.45 * 1.3825= 1503.
Punch that into the formula and the target cruiser now needs to exceed 1746 m/s. Add two rigor and one flare rig - 2763 m/s. Add standard crash booster - 3442 m/s.
Target painters are the best thing since sliced bread for missile boats. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1420
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Posted - 2015.01.29 19:16:52 -
[18] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Target painters quite simply trump the need for any kind of missile tracking computers. Unheated they boost damage application by 38%. They help everyone in the fleet. They only cost 16 CPU to fit. A tracking computer with tracking script only boosts by 30% and costs 35 CPU to fit.
Missile formula:
Speed a target must exceed to begin to mitigate missile damage = (explosion velocity * target signature radius) / explosion radius.
A Caracal with perfect skills and armed with Heavies - 122 m/s explosion velocity and 105m explosion radius. Shooting at a normal sized cruiser (125m) using a MWD (*6)
750 * 122 / 105 = 871m/s. A joke.
Add two overheated TP and you essentially double the targets signature. 750 * 1.45 * 1.3825= 1503.
Punch that into the formula and the target cruiser now needs to exceed 1746 m/s. Add two rigor and one flare rig - 2763 m/s. Add standard crash booster - 3442 m/s.
Target painters are the best thing since sliced bread for missile boats.
So because TP's CCP can safely remove targeting computers and tracking enhancers. I'm glad you suggested this brilliant idea.
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Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
1839
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Posted - 2015.01.29 19:41:17 -
[19] - Quote
Missile formula and turret tracking formula are not the same thing. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1320
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Posted - 2015.01.29 20:05:18 -
[20] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:So because TP's CCP can safely remove targeting computers and tracking enhancers. I'm glad you suggested this brilliant idea. Tracking Computers and Tracking Enhancers also have the benefit of increasing the range of the ship's turrets, something that target painters cannot do. There is some overlap in utility, but neither one makes the other obsolete.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
104
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Posted - 2015.01.29 21:40:55 -
[21] - Quote
One thing that may help us thinking about turrets and launchers . . .
I haven't seen it mentioned (maybe because it's obvious).
When a turret fires, after the computers and modules compensate for distance, your speed and the target's speed, their path is a straight line.
When a launcher fires, the missile "chases" it's target.
Two different dynamics and physics involved for each.
But, yes, I would like to see new modules that helps missiles in any way.
We have implants and rigs that can effect the explosion radius of a missile, and some compensate for the target's speed, and some for the missile speed too. I know like in a turret module, there's a trade off.
For turrets, IE, there's the Tracking Computer for the mids, and there's the tracking enhancer for the lows. Both help in range and tracking for turrets. Lets say on a Ferox then, a tracking enhancer can be used, but then a mid slot is used up that could be used for shields, or ?. If the enhancer is used then in a low slot, then a damage module could be eliminated.
So, for launchers, what do we want? We want damage, we want range, we want missile velocity, we want explosive radius, and we want something that will help negate the target's velocity.
There could be specific modules that cover different things. Something in the mids, something in the lows.
Again, yes, I would like to see some missile modules.
-Kirst
Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
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Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
104
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Posted - 2015.01.29 23:34:17 -
[22] - Quote
Nakovi Kitsune wrote:Forgot to mention implants. My point is that every gun system has implants and rigs as well, in addition to specific modules.
Long story short, I'm disappointed with the tengu and nighthawk's ability to apply damage to fast cruisers outside web range. Heavy missiles suffer badly from explosion velocity.
And yes, I'm aware that the answer i'll generally get here is "well just use another ship." I can, and have, but wondered about the lack of missile modules in the process.
The answer is not to get another ship!
Some ships do have special traits, the over all problem is with the heavy missile nerf itself.
Heavies presently get these ship bonuses:
Caracal gets a 10% velocity bonus. Navy Caracal - 5% exp. rad. Navy Osprey - 10% velocity Navy Drake - 10% velocity, 5% exp. rad. Cerberus get 10% flight time Rook - 10% velocity Nighthawk - 5% exp. rad. Raven - 10% velocity CNR - 10% velocity, 5% exp. rad. Golem - 10% velocity, 5% exp. velocity
(-stats may not be 100%)
A lot of the turret ships also get ship bonuses, but they can use turret modules.
It would be nice to have some new launcher modules, as I mentioned before. They could even have special scripts for certain circumstances.
-Kirst
Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
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Cephelange du'Krevviq
Senex Legio The Old Contemptibles
270
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Posted - 2015.01.29 23:46:43 -
[23] - Quote
Something else that I didn't see mentioned is that missiles have the benefit of applying the same amount of damage to their target whether at max flight range or close up. That's a trade-off between turrets and missiles.
"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"
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Lloyd Roses
818
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Posted - 2015.01.30 12:03:52 -
[24] - Quote
Honestly, if you see a 5 low missile ship, that's 3 BCS, a nano/sensor backup and a DCU. If you see 5 lows on a gun ship, you feel skrewed.
I GÖÑ Sleipnir
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
985
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Posted - 2015.01.30 13:27:48 -
[25] - Quote
OP forgets two things:
- if they would be introduced the missile base stats would have to be lowered to compensate. So as with other support modules like that you don't really get a massive increase in stats, but you get 2 nerfed stats of which you can get one back to slightly above old base level.
- they would also introduce an EWAR against missiles, similar to the tracking disruptor.
Be careful what you wish for. |
Nakovi Kitsune
Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly Events
5
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Posted - 2015.01.30 17:02:52 -
[26] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:OP forgets two things:
- if they would be introduced the missile base stats would have to be lowered to compensate. So as with other support modules like that you don't really get a massive increase in stats, but you get 2 nerfed stats of which you can get one back to slightly above old base level.
- they would also introduce an EWAR against missiles, similar to the tracking disruptor.
Be careful what you wish for.
I would welcome EWAR on missiles. Frankly, I think how missiles work in general is absurd in the first place, and would love an overhaul. I would like to see an Eve Dev sit down with the USAF and explain how, by their very nature, missiles can never miss |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
934
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Posted - 2015.01.30 17:23:55 -
[27] - Quote
well they never miss because it's an explosion rather than a projectile or laser hitting the target.
That's why explosion radius and velocity are a factor, they might hit but only a small portion of the explosion is actually effective. |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4057
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Posted - 2015.02.01 05:45:52 -
[28] - Quote
An across-the-board 25% bump to explosion velocity on all missiles would probably suffice.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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