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Ortus Maleficus
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.01.28 04:32:14 -
[1] - Quote
First of all, this is most certainly not a whine thread -- this is something I've been thinking about for years now, and I'd love to have an actual discussion about the following: too much of Eve's PVP is "meaningless", which is driven by two things -- the existence of killmails/killboards, and the lack of consequences of criminal acts.
By meaningless, I mean that there are no in-game motivations for it. Oh, sure, often there are, don't get me wrong, but so much of it is just killboard stats padding. I think that judging things in such a manner warps the reality of the game world.
Running into some random piratey-type-of-guy in lowsec should be about him wanting the isk value of your stuff, not about more points on the killboard (and it seems to me these CODE guys that are ganking shuttles in hi-sec are the perfect example of killboard stat whoring).
Wars should be judged by the outcomes of movements and strategy, not about who has done more isk-damage.
I think back to Ultima Online, when being a "PK" (player-killer, for those of you who aren't old) was a fairly rare thing, the average player was not going to attack another player on sight, and then once in a while, if you were too aggressive at killing people outside of town, they would round up a band of "anti-PKs" and chase us down.
And don't get me wrong, Eve's PVP is fantastic. I would just somehow love to see one step towards in-game motivations.
Now, what I find very interesting about all this is that once I started thinking about this sort of thing, the more I see it in everything... once there were WoW mods like recount, raids became much less fun, or even in business with executives overly-focusing on monthly incomes and causing the rest of the business to get dragged down chasing that single goal.
So, of course I have NO idea how to fix this aside from removing all pvp stats from the game, but of course that is ridiculous, and there is certainly something to be said for having the ability to measure things as such. I'm not fundamentally against that, but things just... feel off, in this department.
Am I a crazy person, or does anyone else get what what I mean?
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6134
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Posted - 2015.01.28 04:44:48 -
[2] - Quote
But... but... muh stats!
I will now defend my PVP by hating everybody elses play style and push the notion that I am better than them for the personal decisions I made.
You make some good points, but you do know you are going to get trolled by the "This is not single player" religionists. Sure you are not even writing about that, but give it time, this thread will get there.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Interfectorem Tacet
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2
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Posted - 2015.01.28 04:57:29 -
[3] - Quote
I hear you as I too enjoyed the freedom in UO before they split the shards into pvp and non pvp.
However it only worked because of the playerbase...The mechanics of it were very simple but the players set out how your were going to play.
Another way of thinking is comparing High sec to towns where there were guards and players that would hunt down PK's and low/null is out in the wilderness where pretty much anything was game. Eve was very much like this in the beginning but slowly over the course of time it moved to more theme parky sandbox.
Eve now is way better balanced than before however I think they should start dropping some of the control out and let the players fight over it again. (Having said that though there is a much larger portion of idiots and morons in eve nowadays) |
DaReaper
Net 7
1725
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Posted - 2015.01.28 06:47:21 -
[4] - Quote
sigh...
All eve combat has meaning. The meaning is what you make of it. The ganker is either killing to get your loot and make money, or to pad his kill board, or cause its funny.
Alliance fight for territory, resources, glory, laughs, or cause they can,
Eve doesn't need any arbitrary reason to fight. Eve is as close to a real life simulator as you can get. Violence in real life has no meaning, and often no point. why should eve have a meaning? if you **** me off and i want to shove a missile up your tail pipe, then that's all the meaning i need.
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7668
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Posted - 2015.01.28 06:55:57 -
[5] - Quote
Ortus Maleficus wrote:So, of course I have NO idea how to fix this aside from removing all pvp stats from the game, but of course that is ridiculous,
Au contraire.
I think that would be a fine idea, personally.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Kim O'Blasy
Vapid Vacuums Inc. Scout's Armada
1
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Posted - 2015.01.28 07:26:44 -
[6] - Quote
There is nothing to fix. Loot and isk reward are only motivators for the small minded or new players. EVE lets those that are not motivated by the 'physical' labor of small time combat to acheive so much more...Simply for the fun and the glory while they give away the bounty and loot. Remember, EVE battles make international news when the battle deserves attention and EVE players in real life battles get remembered...Bengahzi. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29610
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Posted - 2015.01.28 07:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
A long time ago, in a conference room far, far away (in Vegas), mittens said sov is the one absolute victory in EVE.
Your sense that PVP is meaningless is more or less correct. What matters is Sov.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
32129
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Posted - 2015.01.28 07:34:35 -
[8] - Quote
In a game that is open ended, it's up to each individual/group to find the meaning, not for it to be dictated by CCP imo.
Sure some people fight to pad stats, others fight for sov, others for the FW mechanics, etc. Many just fight because that's what they find to be fun, irrespective of the stats.
There's no single, one meaning to pvp. Trying to force a meaning to pvp will end up failing. People will still fight for whatever reason they feel is important, not for a target/purpose set by CCP.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kim O'Blasy
Vapid Vacuums Inc. Scout's Armada
1
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Posted - 2015.01.28 07:39:41 -
[9] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:In a game that is open ended, it's up to each individual/group to find the meaning, not for it to be dictated by CCP imo.
Sure some people fight to pad stats, others fight for sov, others for the FW mechanics, etc. Many just fight because that's what they find to be fun, irrespective of the stats.
There's no single, one meaning to pvp. Trying to force a meaning to pvp will end up failing. People will still fight for whatever reason they feel is important, not for a target/purpose set by CCP.
This is correct and can be applied in real life applications. |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
675
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Posted - 2015.01.28 07:43:04 -
[10] - Quote
EVE the game of blow stuff up.
People have questioned the motivations of EVE for ten years though.
CCP Listen |
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Yarda Black
Militaris Industries Northern Coalition.
539
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Posted - 2015.01.28 09:17:19 -
[11] - Quote
You know when your targets' three bars go from white to red? You see that creeping and then.... finally... he flashes and disappears?
I dont care what anybody has to say about my motivation to get there; I love it! |
Vek Hareka
Fist Bumps All Around
0
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:11:38 -
[12] - Quote
In MMOs, people kill people "meaninglessly" because virtual murder is fun: it's pleasantly mild and consequence-free violence.
Want to promote outcomes and strategy over raw kill figures ? Make more blogs, stories, fictions, news articles, videos, gifs and pictures: they are what makes this galaxy of cold harsh numbers alive. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2607
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:14:27 -
[13] - Quote
Read up to "lack of consequences of criminal acts" and stopped.
I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
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Big Lynx
Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno.
878
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:16:24 -
[14] - Quote
What would eve become without nerdy epeen comparisons? |
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
239
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Posted - 2015.01.28 11:06:28 -
[15] - Quote
Making the resources more limited would create more incentives to fight for those resources. People fight for killmails when ISK making potential is essentially unlimited and does not need to be competed over.
The problem with PvP in eve is the lack of conflicts of interest in many areas.
Who would hate the suicide ganker, if he selectively killed your competition and gave you a bigger share of the scarce asteroids? |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2607
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Posted - 2015.01.28 11:32:19 -
[16] - Quote
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:Who would hate the suicide ganker, if he selectively killed your competition and gave you a bigger share of the scarce asteroids? People who are morally opposed to the existence of nonconsensual pvp in video games, and/or don't consider themselves competing with others despite resources being limited.
I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
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Hippinse
University of Caille Gallente Federation
46
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Posted - 2015.01.28 11:50:24 -
[17] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Godfrey Silvarna wrote:Who would hate the suicide ganker, if he selectively killed your competition and gave you a bigger share of the scarce asteroids? People who are morally opposed to the existence of nonconsensual pvp in video games, and/or don't consider themselves competing with others despite resources being limited.
It wouldn't make sense for someone who felt that way to play EVE and expect to enjoy themselves. Wouldn't that be like going to a restaurant that specializes in food that you're allergic to? |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
1687
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Posted - 2015.01.28 11:53:42 -
[18] - Quote
All of my PVP is an interaction with another person, and whoever loses a ship has to replace it. The more an entity needs to replace ships defensively, the less ISK they have available to deploy ships offensively. That makes all PVp relevant by my metrics. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2607
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Posted - 2015.01.28 12:02:25 -
[19] - Quote
Hippinse wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Godfrey Silvarna wrote:Who would hate the suicide ganker, if he selectively killed your competition and gave you a bigger share of the scarce asteroids? People who are morally opposed to the existence of nonconsensual pvp in video games, and/or don't consider themselves competing with others despite resources being limited. It wouldn't make sense for someone who felt that way to play EVE and expect to enjoy themselves. Wouldn't that be like going to a restaurant that specializes in food that you're allergic to? Let me put things in perspective for you:
I recently started playing H1Z1, which is a zombie survival MMO, as you're probably aware. There are pvp servers, and pve servers available, which are pretty self-explanatory.
The biggest complaint on the forums is by people getting the game, going on the pvp servers, getting killed, and then making hate-filled threads on the forums about how "sociopath griefer kids" are going around "KOSing everybody," and the most prominent community demand is that some kind of "pvp-flagging" or "insanity meter" system be added to pvp servers.
I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24843
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Posted - 2015.01.28 12:58:03 -
[20] - Quote
Hippinse wrote:It wouldn't make sense for someone who felt that way to play EVE and expect to enjoy themselves. Wouldn't that be like going to a restaurant that specializes in food that you're allergic to? Unfortunately, you'll soon discover that making sense is not one of the strong points of the PvP-adverse.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Keno Skir
734
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Posted - 2015.01.28 13:01:35 -
[21] - Quote
Right i'm gonna go out on a limb here, and hopefully most of you know i'm not exactly PvP averse. I think removal of killmails would "to a certain extent" improve imersion.
Just sayin.. I like my killmails too but still...
Gùï> 3 Week Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 21 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2609
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Posted - 2015.01.28 13:22:09 -
[22] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Right i'm gonna go out on a limb here, and hopefully most of you know i'm not exactly PvP averse. I think removal of killmails would "to a certain extent" improve imersion.
Just sayin.. I like my killmails too but still... Not really. We already live in an age of data today, in which every little bit of our lives is somehow recorded. Imagine how it would be like 20,000 years from now. It's highly unlikely that no one would make detailed combat records.
Also, if kill mails were removed, I guarantee that players would fine their own way around it (screenshots, etc).
I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
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Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
472
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Posted - 2015.01.28 13:26:33 -
[23] - Quote
Ortus Maleficus wrote:... I'm not fundamentally against that, but things just... feel off, in this department. Am I a crazy person, or does anyone else get what what I mean? I've been ranting about this for years. People respond like it's a crying carebear who got ganked. Fact is, I'm a rabid competitor who lives for the kill - against someone I could quite easily lose against if I don't watch myself and do it right. This CODE group (for instance) has a philosophical reason why they won't pick a fair fight with a worthy opponent - it's the basis of the CODE - "we have a good excuse for ganking." Ganking IS attacking helpless players with overwhelming force for yucks. It's a term devised in WOW, and (unfortunately for us) has found its way HERE. *shudders in disgust*
The game mechanics have a lot to do with this, and the price to be paid for being an outlaw has a lot to do with that. The mechanics are close, don't get me wrong. They just aren't severe. Pirates were hung summarily on capture. They were never allowed to just walk into town. The navys involved wouldn't see a pirate in a bar, let him get on his ship with a head start to the open sea, then call the alarm. So, this highly infantile, (romanticized) idea of being a pirate is wildly inaccurate.
Races with so-called "sovereignty" in a so-called "advanced society" with pure unpunished lawlessness cannot happen. You can't rollerskate in a buffalo herd. You can't have spaceships in a world with no law and order - severe enforcement of sovereign authority. It's RIDICULOUS. But, CCP doesn't mind being the object of ridicule, and have no intention of doing anything about this, so I ridicule them with regularity and don't take them seriously - like men. I see them as children who shave.
Thanks for bringing this up once more. Don't worry about the children and their responses. They have to write on a wall with their crayons. Let it be this one.
Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to.
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Bruce Kemp
IMORTALS The Klingon Empire
130
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Posted - 2015.01.28 13:32:07 -
[24] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:sigh...
All eve combat has meaning. The meaning is what you make of it. The ganker is either killing to get your loot and make money, or to pad his kill board, or cause its funny.
Alliance fight for territory, resources, glory, laughs, or cause they can,
Eve doesn't need any arbitrary reason to fight. Eve is as close to a real life simulator as you can get. Violence in real life has no meaning, and often no point. why should eve have a meaning? if you **** me off and i want to shove a missile up your tail pipe, then that's all the meaning i need.
This, now ship up and fight.
-áIf people played EVE as much as they posted rubbish on these forums, they might enjoy the game.
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Serene Repose
2140
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Posted - 2015.01.28 13:38:56 -
[25] - Quote
And, remember, those ships make themselves. So FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1938
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Posted - 2015.01.28 13:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ortus Maleficus wrote:Running into some random piratey-type-of-guy in lowsec should be about him wanting the isk value of your stuff, not about more points on the killboard (and it seems to me these CODE guys that are ganking shuttles in hi-sec are the perfect example of killboard stat whoring). Removing what stats we have won't make people any more creative in coming up with their motivations. And CODE is about selling permits, something which was invented despite the existence of killboards etc.
Destiny Corrupted wrote:I recently started playing H1Z1, which is a zombie survival MMO, as you're probably aware. There are pvp servers, and pve servers available, which are pretty self-explanatory.
The biggest complaint on the forums is by people getting the game, going on the pvp servers, getting killed, and then making hate-filled threads on the forums about how "sociopath griefer kids" are going around "KOSing everybody," and the most prominent community demand is that some kind of "pvp-flagging" or "insanity meter" system be added to pvp servers. I started played Elite:Dangerous a while back, it has a solo mode where you are the only player, a group mode where people you elect to play with are the only players, and finally an open mode anyone can join. Similar to your example, the most common complaints are of 'griefers' in open mode, and how there should be a PvP flag or similar in that mode.
Pok Nibin wrote:This CODE group (for instance) has a philosophical reason why they won't pick a fair fight with a worthy opponent - it's the basis of the CODE - "we have a good excuse for ganking." Ganking IS attacking helpless players with overwhelming force for yucks. Ganking is the most elite form of PvP in EVE. The fact that you don't realise this, and think miners are actually helpless (due to mechanical limitation rather than intellectual limitation), demonstrates how little you know of the game. Still, thanks for the rant.
Witty Image - Stream
Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2610
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Posted - 2015.01.28 14:13:01 -
[27] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:I recently started playing H1Z1, which is a zombie survival MMO, as you're probably aware. There are pvp servers, and pve servers available, which are pretty self-explanatory.
The biggest complaint on the forums is by people getting the game, going on the pvp servers, getting killed, and then making hate-filled threads on the forums about how "sociopath griefer kids" are going around "KOSing everybody," and the most prominent community demand is that some kind of "pvp-flagging" or "insanity meter" system be added to pvp servers. I started played Elite:Dangerous a while back, it has a solo mode where you are the only player, a group mode where people you elect to play with are the only players, and finally an open mode anyone can join. Similar to your example, the most common complaints are of 'griefers' in open mode, and how there should be a PvP flag or similar in that mode. I truly do wonder what was the point in time at which the gaming world became so pussified.
I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
78
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Posted - 2015.01.28 14:20:59 -
[28] - Quote
I fight for the glory of the federation!!!
Just Add Water
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Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.01.28 14:48:25 -
[29] - Quote
I have been playing MMO for over a decade, have played many PVP MMOs (no, not EVER wow... ugh) and decided that I like the following in PVP:
- PVP must be a challenge of your skills... not of your wallet, not of your years-in-game (whether this is expressed in an SP difference, the legendary weapon of whatsit / armor of divinity or something else), but of what you, the player, actually bring to the board. Quite a few games allow a system where veterans will ALWAYS stomp newbs into the ground, and that's just unhealthy. The newbs tend to go to greener pastures, leaving the veterans to complain there's no PVP to be had. Well doh...
- PVP against non-PVPers (aka carebears) is boring and stupid. They don't want to fight, most of them don't know how to even react, and I'd much rather not bother. It's more fun if the traders/missioners/whatever can stay neutral and you only get to seek out the ones who WANT a fight.
- The exception being, of course, hunting down merchants/PVE people who are trying to sneak through PVP enabled high-loot areas to get max profit. There, it's tally-ho, and you knew the risk going in. In the games I did this in, though (POTBS especially), the intended victims could actually get away by knowing what to do with the available escape skills and they could actually DEFEND themselves. Way more of a challenge. (Side note: the unarmed EVE freighters are a bit silly... historically, there were always plenty of armed sea traders, so why not here?)
- Killboards lead to boring and stupid gameplay. I've been in MMO that had wargames, where the killboard junkies would ALWAYS focus on getting the max kills, while I and a few others snuck behind them, completed the objectives, and won the actual game - and hence the loot and PVP points. PVP servers, ironically, tend to be the most boring servers to be on for wargames, because EVERYONE is DPS and no one seems to comprehend that a balance of classes and skills wins more matches than 'Chaaaaaarge' and bragging about your DPS gear.
- I like in-game bounty systems that actually work. Meaning the bounty is there for a reason (e.g. bounty on an effective player killer, or an owner of special skills, like SWG jedi), the bounty is rewarding, and the risk is there for both hunter and hunted.
- I like MMO with game wide objectives and actual factions
- I like it when an MMO makes it possible to win by using strategy, even when heavily outnumbered
- Oh yeah, and I REALLY like hunting down gankers, griefers and bots.
I can't really find anything that fits the bill lately, so I'm playing EVE. Life's a **** and then you die...
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Icarus Able
Revenant Tactical
536
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Posted - 2015.01.28 15:04:22 -
[30] - Quote
Personally i always loot my kills if i can. But sometimes i just wanna murder someone. Is being psychotic not a valid roleplay style? |
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