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Lugh Crow-Slave
612
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Posted - 2015.01.28 08:38:26 -
[31] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:Very simple...
1) Take Tempest 2) Double its speed 3) ???? 4) Profit
Ok double might be a bit much... but give it some of its racial traits back and then it becomes stonger in a different way... sure it doesnt have the raw damage or tank of other battleships... but it goes like stink and can keep up on a roam?
this could be an idea make it the only BS with a warp speed bonus (or just up its warp speed)
add a bit more base speed and agi (double is a bit much)
do this and you may have a decent small gang BS
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Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
0
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Posted - 2015.01.28 08:51:24 -
[32] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sh00ter McGavin wrote:
No. Lasers are not E-war. E-war is using energy to disable an opponent. Neuts do that. And if neuts aren't e-war, then why don't any of the other races get bonuses to them? No one gets bonuses to neuts except Amarr or Amarr-based pirates. Everyone knows that neuts are an Amarr thing, scrams are a Gallente thing, and webs are a Minmatar thing.
Poping a ship is not disabling it? and as far as the game is concerned nuets are not E-war if they were then under current mechanics the game would break. I'm not talking bout what race uses what just what is the primary E-war of minmatar and what would be more balanced. Now a web bonus is exceedingly powerful especially range bonuses. on a cheap ship it would be easy to spam these and put a wall up in front of your Logi in large fights. or in small fights/solo you can now stop your direct counter (frigs/cruisers) before many of them even get close to their optimal range. TP are still have a great effect for projectiles but aren't nearly as strong as webs
You don't see that happening currently, because not only is it difficult, but it's neither cost-effective, nor possible with anything but lokis or rapiers/huginns. Nobody would do this with bhaalghorns, even if they were the same price as a tempest. 20k web range is just not far enough to do what your talking about. It just doesn't work for that.
Frigates are not, nor should they be, a 'direct counter' to battleships. There should not be direct counters to anything in eve. That is what CCP has been trying to avoid, as they should.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14689
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Posted - 2015.01.28 08:57:20 -
[33] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:ChromeStriker wrote:Very simple...
1) Take Tempest 2) Double its speed 3) ???? 4) Profit
Ok double might be a bit much... but give it some of its racial traits back and then it becomes stonger in a different way... sure it doesnt have the raw damage or tank of other battleships... but it goes like stink and can keep up on a roam? this could be an idea make it the only BS with a warp speed bonus (or just up its warp speed) add a bit more base speed and agi (double is a bit much) do this and you may have a decent small gang BS
Mach gets a warp speed bonus. Pest also does not need more speed, it can already chase down a good few cruisers.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
612
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Posted - 2015.01.28 08:59:58 -
[34] - Quote
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sh00ter McGavin wrote:
No. Lasers are not E-war. E-war is using energy to disable an opponent. Neuts do that. And if neuts aren't e-war, then why don't any of the other races get bonuses to them? No one gets bonuses to neuts except Amarr or Amarr-based pirates. Everyone knows that neuts are an Amarr thing, scrams are a Gallente thing, and webs are a Minmatar thing.
Poping a ship is not disabling it? and as far as the game is concerned nuets are not E-war if they were then under current mechanics the game would break. I'm not talking bout what race uses what just what is the primary E-war of minmatar and what would be more balanced. Now a web bonus is exceedingly powerful especially range bonuses. on a cheap ship it would be easy to spam these and put a wall up in front of your Logi in large fights. or in small fights/solo you can now stop your direct counter (frigs/cruisers) before many of them even get close to their optimal range. TP are still have a great effect for projectiles but aren't nearly as strong as webs You don't see that happening currently, because not only is it difficult, but it's neither cost-effective, nor possible with anything but lokis or rapiers/huginns. Nobody would do this with bhaalghorns, even if they were the same price as a tempest. 20k web range is just not far enough to do what your talking about. It just doesn't work for that. Frigates are not, nor should they be, a 'direct counter' to battleships. There should not be direct counters to anything in eve. That is what CCP has been trying to avoid, as they should.
people do do this though and quite a lot even with bhaals
20km is a long range when you have your net 30-40k in front of your logi
or in a lot of cases its fencing sub caps off from blap dreads
and i'm sorry i used poor wording not direct counter just main counter
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Lugh Crow-Slave
612
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Posted - 2015.01.28 09:01:19 -
[35] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Mach gets a warp speed bonus. Pest also does not need more speed, it can already chase down a good few cruisers.
ah totally forgot about the pirate rebalance
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Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
0
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Posted - 2015.01.28 09:07:08 -
[36] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sh00ter McGavin wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Sh00ter McGavin wrote:
No. Lasers are not E-war. E-war is using energy to disable an opponent. Neuts do that. And if neuts aren't e-war, then why don't any of the other races get bonuses to them? No one gets bonuses to neuts except Amarr or Amarr-based pirates. Everyone knows that neuts are an Amarr thing, scrams are a Gallente thing, and webs are a Minmatar thing.
Poping a ship is not disabling it? and as far as the game is concerned nuets are not E-war if they were then under current mechanics the game would break. I'm not talking bout what race uses what just what is the primary E-war of minmatar and what would be more balanced. Now a web bonus is exceedingly powerful especially range bonuses. on a cheap ship it would be easy to spam these and put a wall up in front of your Logi in large fights. or in small fights/solo you can now stop your direct counter (frigs/cruisers) before many of them even get close to their optimal range. TP are still have a great effect for projectiles but aren't nearly as strong as webs You don't see that happening currently, because not only is it difficult, but it's neither cost-effective, nor possible with anything but lokis or rapiers/huginns. Nobody would do this with bhaalghorns, even if they were the same price as a tempest. 20k web range is just not far enough to do what your talking about. It just doesn't work for that. Frigates are not, nor should they be, a 'direct counter' to battleships. There should not be direct counters to anything in eve. That is what CCP has been trying to avoid, as they should. people do do this though and quite a lot even with bhaals 20km is a long range when you have your net 30-40k in front of your logi and i'm sorry i used poor wording not direct counter just main counter
I've never seen it once, in quite a few large-scale battles, and countless low-sec engagements, but I'll concede that it might happen. Why not 15% per level then? At 17.5k, it would be useful for that, but barely, and the skill would have to by high to make it work, but it would still be extremely useful for small gang.
Plus, last I heard, wasn't everyone crying that battleships don't have a place in eve any longer?
Edit: When I say skill, I mean actual human pilot skill, not SP. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
613
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Posted - 2015.01.28 09:10:02 -
[37] - Quote
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:
I've never seen it once, in quite a few large-scale battles, and countless low-sec engagements, but I'll concede that it might happen. Why not 15% per level then? At 17.5k, it would be useful for that, but barely, and the skill would have to by high to make it work, but it would still be extremely useful for small gang.
Plus, last I heard, wasn't everyone crying that battleships don't have a place in eve any longer?
It would be better to go with a 5% to effectiveness than any range at all
and its not that BS don't have a place its just that in small gangs they are two slow and in large fights cruisers can do anything a BS can plus more.
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Sigras
Conglomo
1000
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Posted - 2015.01.28 09:28:45 -
[38] - Quote
Here's the thing, I dont have too many problems with a 17.5 km webbing battleship. The problem is that quickly becomes 36 km with a faction web and gang links, and it becomes 45 km with heat.
The only other ships that can do that (and not explode when someone looks at them wrong) are 500 million ISK+ |
Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
0
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:02:26 -
[39] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Here's the thing, I dont have too many problems with a 17.5 km webbing battleship. The problem is that quickly becomes 36 km with a faction web and gang links, and it becomes 45 km with heat.
The only other ships that can do that (and not explode when someone looks at them wrong) are 500 million ISK+
This is true, but we all know what happens to someone who actually does that. They get primaried and everyone fights over who gets that lovely killmail. Only an idiot puts faction modules on a t1 battleship. And we should encourage those people. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
613
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:12:48 -
[40] - Quote
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:Sigras wrote:Here's the thing, I dont have too many problems with a 17.5 km webbing battleship. The problem is that quickly becomes 36 km with a faction web and gang links, and it becomes 45 km with heat.
The only other ships that can do that (and not explode when someone looks at them wrong) are 500 million ISK+ This is true, but we all know what happens to someone who actually does that. They get primaried and everyone fights over who gets that lovely killmail. Only an idiot puts faction modules on a t1 battleship. And we should encourage those people.
a faction web is what 36-56 mill that's not and not what i would lovely KM worthy
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14690
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:28:45 -
[41] - Quote
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:Sigras wrote:Here's the thing, I dont have too many problems with a 17.5 km webbing battleship. The problem is that quickly becomes 36 km with a faction web and gang links, and it becomes 45 km with heat.
The only other ships that can do that (and not explode when someone looks at them wrong) are 500 million ISK+ This is true, but we all know what happens to someone who actually does that. They get primaried and everyone fights over who gets that lovely killmail. Only an idiot puts faction modules on a t1 battleship. And we should encourage those people.
I faction fit my new generation of megathrons, there is nothing daft about it.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
471
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Posted - 2015.01.28 11:22:57 -
[42] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:TP is minms primary E-war thats the one that is most helpful to fighting in falloff as well as the one on all of their e-war ships.
as well what do the vindi and bhaal have in common that may warrant such a strong E-war bonus Saying TP is minnie primary ewar is a bogus point since TE is amarr primary and the geddon gets a neut range bonus. neuts are not e-war Let me put it this way...drones are still a weapon system even though they're not a turret, or even use the same slots. Likewise, neuts are still a type of electronic warfare even though they don't fill a mid because they 'disrupt' the ship. It's very different, but it certainly falls under the same category as the others, especially when you consider the bonuses of the ships that use them in the amarr lineup. |
Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
471
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Posted - 2015.01.28 11:27:54 -
[43] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:Sh00ter McGavin wrote:Tusker Crazinski wrote:10 damage 7.5 tracking or fall off.
that or 5 damage with a 7th gun, making it a mini mach
web range on one of the fastest battleships, a T1 non faction one at that, would be a bit absurd.
granted this would make the maelstrom completely useless, the only thing the mael dose better than the pest right now is alpha....... and slow boating with dual XL-ASB no neuts or hard tackle if you're in to that kinda thing,,,,, good undock clear I guess? The Maelstrom is a very nasty ship with solid tank, amazing alpha, and great reach. This version of the Tempest would not tread on those toes, very specifically by keeping only 6 turrets, and only 6 lows. As I was talking about in my above post, a tracking bonus with the 50% damage modifier would be excellent for its function as a flexible multi-purpose battleship. A 7/6/6 slot layout would allow it to be used interchangeably in a shield OR armor fleet to great effect. A tracking bonus coupled with 425s, sabot, and the room to fit TE is just too much. Too much compared drone battleships and missile battleships that can field rapid heavies? Or are you thinking specifically turret ships, excluding the megathron which already gets around the same tracking speed (not counting the tracking bonus from sabot as you noted which is a fair point). |
Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
471
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Posted - 2015.01.28 11:31:12 -
[44] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:A simple 10% damage bonus and drop the RoF bonus for a tracking bonus (which is a normal thing for attack BS - Damage + Application) and the Typhoon would become super groovy sexy.
It would be the best Alpha boat in the game
It would be good at Solo work having huge versatility and damage application
It would actually work.
It would be differentiated from the Mael as the Mael is a shield tanker and the 'Pest is much more suited to armour tanking. if you're talking an 8 gun setup with a tracking bonus and a smaller web bonus, I could get behind that since it sees the best of both worlds, and people would have to faction-fit to get out to disruptor range. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
339
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Posted - 2015.01.28 11:37:27 -
[45] - Quote
Web bonuses don't go on basic ships. Faction at least or T2/T3. 7th turret
The Law is a point of View
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Lugh Crow-Slave
614
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Posted - 2015.01.28 11:37:43 -
[46] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote: Let me put it this way...drones are still a weapon system even though they're not a turret, or even use the same slots. Likewise, neuts are still a type of electronic warfare even though they don't fill a mid because they 'disrupt' the ship. It's very different, but it certainly falls under the same category as the others, especially when you consider the bonuses of the ships that use them in the amarr lineup.
that has nothing to do with why they aren't e-war were talking game defined E-war not player defined if neuts were considered E-war by the game archons would be near unstoppable in small to mid gang fights
if you want player defined then yes of course they are. I explained this and at this point it has nothing to do with a tempest re-balance
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Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
380
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Posted - 2015.01.28 12:03:06 -
[47] - Quote
Rebalancing the Tempest to make it less shite than the other T1 battleships is like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
Battleships are very rarely flown anymore outside of PvE because bombers are so OP. Making the Tempest a bit better isn't going to help, although the Tempest does need to be a bit better.
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
614
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Posted - 2015.01.28 12:47:52 -
[48] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:Rebalancing the Tempest to make it less shite than the other T1 battleships is like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
Battleships are very rarely seen anymore outside of PvE any more because bombers are so OP. Making the Tempest a bit better isn't going to help, although the Tempest does need to be a bit better.
There are so many more problems than just bombs seeing as battle ships are also just about gone from low sec as well
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14694
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Posted - 2015.01.28 13:07:58 -
[49] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:Rebalancing the Tempest to make it less shite than the other T1 battleships is like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
Battleships are very rarely seen anymore outside of PvE any more because bombers are so OP. Making the Tempest a bit better isn't going to help, although the Tempest does need to be a bit better. There are so many more problems than just bombs seeing as battle ships are also just about gone from low sec as well
BS have never been popular for solo and small gangs. The vast bulk of the playerbase hold the myths about BS being poor to be true and thus never try.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Hairpins Blueprint
CBC Interstellar Fidelas Constans
124
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Posted - 2015.01.28 14:18:51 -
[50] - Quote
Sigras wrote:web range on something as cheap and durable as a tempest would be a disaster...
TBH if the matari get an ewar battleship it should be the typhoon and it should get target painter bonuses
If it were up to me, i'd give the tempest another turret, change the damage bonus to 7.5% per level, drop the ROF bonus for a range bonus and give it extra agility.
That would make the maelstrom the brawler and the tempest would be an alpha strike hit and run sniping machine.
Na na na Thats Mach foru mate |
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Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
1
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Posted - 2015.01.28 19:50:35 -
[51] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Web bonuses don't go on basic ships. Faction at least or T2/T3. 7th turret
Why not? What stops that? A 7th turret does not change the fact that the ship is then still just a crappy Maelstrom. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
619
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Posted - 2015.01.28 20:01:18 -
[52] - Quote
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Web bonuses don't go on basic ships. Faction at least or T2/T3. 7th turret Why not? What stops that?
as many of us have tried to explain web bonuses are extremely powerful
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Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
147
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Posted - 2015.01.28 20:55:17 -
[53] - Quote
I would be in favor of a target painter bonus for the Tempest, but I think a web bonus might be too strong. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
217
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Posted - 2015.01.28 23:14:57 -
[54] - Quote
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:
Minmatar Battleship bonuses: 10% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 200
Are you out of your mind?
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Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
24
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Posted - 2015.01.29 00:34:02 -
[55] - Quote
Honestly the Pest, Mael, and hype really need new hull buffs, slot, and weapon layouts.
first of all I don't think a battle ship save for some silly faction or T2 BS should ever have an active tanking buff period.
Pest (7/6/6) 6 guns 10 damage 5 falloff, tracking, or even TP strength. good for ACs and arty both
mael just get rid of the active tanking buff for tracking, falloff, damage or literally anything else.
Hype 8 guns like the rest of the Tier 3 BSes 5 damage and 7.5 tracking.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
622
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Posted - 2015.01.29 00:41:45 -
[56] - Quote
Tusker Crazinski wrote:Honestly the Pest, Mael, and hype really need new hull buffs, slot, and weapon layouts.
first of all I don't think a battle ship save for some silly faction or T2 BS should ever have an active tanking buff period.
Pest (7/6/6) 6 guns 10 damage 5 falloff, tracking, or even TP strength. good for ACs and arty both
mael just get rid of the active tanking buff for tracking, falloff, damage or literally anything else.
Hype 8 guns like the rest of the Tier 3 BSes 5 damage and 7.5 tracking.
nothing wrong with active tanking BS
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1087
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Posted - 2015.01.29 00:47:07 -
[57] - Quote
i think what would be a natural fit would be falloff bonus, basically a T1 mach at a lower power level
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
24
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Posted - 2015.01.29 01:31:32 -
[58] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: nothing wrong with active tanking BS
Nothing wrong with active tanking a BS, it's just active tanking bonuses. the majority of the time it's a wasted bonus on battleships.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2298
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Posted - 2015.01.29 03:34:31 -
[59] - Quote
A lot of people really like the Tempest. It is one of the most popular battleships. I'd fly one into combat any day.
CSM X: Sabriz Adoudel, Mike Azariah, Sugar Kyle, Corbexx, Jenshae Chiroptera
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
340
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Posted - 2015.01.29 04:31:59 -
[60] - Quote
Tusker Crazinski wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: nothing wrong with active tanking BS
Nothing wrong with active tanking a BS, it's just active tanking bonuses. the majority of the time it's a wasted bonus on battleships.
^this is actually more symptomatic of the 'logi all the things,' 'blob all the things,' or 'ishtar all the things' mentalities pervading Eve right now, not necessarily a problem with active tanking. This problem was made much worse by the T1 logi cruisers, even though they did quite a bit for getting people back into low sec for a while, and promoting GF's for a time.
That random active tanked maelstrom using a proper fit, blue pill, tengu boosty alt, etc, is still a monster to take down, or triple rep myrm, and so forth. The fix here isn't just remove the local rep bonuses because logi are OP and the current game environment promotes the larger blob, it's finding ways to make the smaller guy able to fight the blob, directly or indirectly, or giving the blob good enough reasons to not be the blob.
The Law is a point of View
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