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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
4904
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Posted - 2015.02.11 18:22:36 -
[271] - Quote
Solairen wrote: Maybe I misunderstand, but it seems like it might meet your needs if CCP just gave Chat Channels internal standings.
Right now anyone can make a channel, and invite or bump the people they want from it. So you can form all the fleets you want out of that and maintain standings internal to the channel, without all this social corp stuff. Just by adding standings to channels. (Possibly fleets too)
This would have a side effect / next step of allowing channel organizers to to set speaking priority or chat color based on standings. I.e. Blue = FC when FC talks, it's bold and blue and bumps others. FC could mute say anyone listed as red (squadie) or whatever you want. Just by adding temp modifiable standings to the already inpalce chat system.
Fleet adverts, mailing lists and bulletins are also useful for NPSI
Woo! CSM 9!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Solairen
Matsuko Holding
13
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Posted - 2015.02.11 18:29:18 -
[272] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote: How often have you heard of a group of newbies, being 'griefed out of the game', when all they wanted was a name of their own. Not at all, so never. Lots of whinging and whining in the forum of course about how this is such a common thing. But in game it actually happening? Never that I've seen. ** sniped for relevance to response**
I see this response a lot, and not just in this thread but in Crime and Punishment and other places.
Fact is it does happen and quite a bit. But these players just quietly leave and don't hop on these forums and rant, most probably don't even use the forums. So unless they are in your Corp you don't see it happening. I.e. people are still dying of starvation in other places. Just because you don't see it or they dont complain to you, doesn't mean they aren't. (Not comparing people quitting to starving people, just as a literary illustration).
The problem is the WarDec mechanism, and basically these players are risk averse, or to poor in their ISK (because they playing in free time and don't min/max to make isk or have the time to). They then spend all WarDec docked, then get bored, then quit. Lost Subs for CCP is lost employee pay-checks, thats hurts all of us that are still in the game.
I've seen two HS corp I had alts in effectively die this way. I watched the players leave in frustration, give their stuff away (yes i took some it) and walk away.
HOWEVER, despite all that I don't think non-decable corps, or social corps are the solution. CCP should just fix WarDecs. In the case of those two HS corps both were merc'd out of existence. I personally don't have an issue with Merc Corps, more power to them - make you some isk. But maybe CCP could adjust the system. I.e. Someone posts a corp bounty on something like the market, merc corps bid on it. The Corp getting WD by the Mercs, at least know WHO their enemy is. This then gives them options 1) Merc back (more explosions) 2) Diplo the hiring players/corp 3) Counter bid Merc corp to attack original hiring corp. All of this is more player options and more sandbox than we have now, and more explosion generally.
Don't remove Decs, don't screw merc corps, don't make social corps... just fix the flippen WarDec mechanic, give us more options to deal with decs (beyond surrender, which is kind of stupid imho). I think that will be more effective at reducing player loss from n00bs and HS than just creating new undecable corps.
TL:DR - 1) People really do quit EVE from HS wardec and corp griefs that don't meet CCP definition of grief, but still keep them locked up in station afraid. 2) While you don't care and are happy to see them leave. Lost revenue for CCP means less Devs and game content for those of us still playing. (I.e. we need their money) 3) Fixing WarDecs is a better answer than new undeacable corps. |
Shailagh
WTB Somalians
88
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Posted - 2015.02.11 21:32:54 -
[273] - Quote
Please fix wardecs. I am sure this is asked of you more than people asking for Eve-FB friendlist/twitter-corp-tweets |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
281
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Posted - 2015.02.11 21:44:27 -
[274] - Quote
Quote: TL:DR - 1) People really do quit EVE from HS wardec and corp griefs that don't meet CCP definition of grief, but still keep them locked up in station afraid. 2) While you don't care and are happy to see them leave. Lost revenue for CCP means less Devs and game content for those of us still playing. (I.e. we need their money) 3) Fixing WarDecs is a better answer than new undeacable corps.
Meh, we have had new people leave our corp because of wardecs. But the thing is that it was almost always one of these sit in a trade hub loser merc corps. So easy to avoid and not even notice. Yet the new bros just refused to learn, try or do anything. Why? Because they are use to games where it is practically *impossible* to lose anything ever. And that is what they want eve to be.
Sorry but we don't want eve to be just another MMO. There are more than enough of those out there.
And yet this suggestion, despite the fact that 90% of people in this thread have literary made up what they think it is or will be, and has nothing to do with changing wardec mechanisms.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3143
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Posted - 2015.02.11 22:06:41 -
[275] - Quote
Remember what a cross corp social group is:
A coalition.
We already have them in the game. The coalitions you hear about are the big null alliance groupings. But a few miners sharing a chat channel can be considered a coalition, and the AJ community could be too. We players have already created cross corp social groups. All CCP is talking about is making it easier to set them up, advertize them, and control membership.
I propose a Coalition be defined as:
A group of players, corps, and/or alliances that group together for a common purpose.
They are defined by: At least one chat channel, at least one mailing list, moderators, and the membership.
They would have a way to advertize and a way to add and remove members.
The game would have a way to set them up, and a way any player could search for one that might interest them. It is this last: A method for players to find a group, that may be the most important. Right now, how do you search for a chat channel full of players that share a common interest with you? There is no good way. Hence, new players don't find them, maybe don't find anyone to play with, and leave the game.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
32903
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Posted - 2015.02.11 22:21:57 -
[276] - Quote
Solairen wrote:Fact is it does happen and quite a bit. Can you show me those facts?
Are you really talking facts or just your beliefs? Either way can actually be fine because even a belief has to be formed on the basis of observation (unless faith based). So there must be some data to support this statement, either as a fact or as a belief.
As to the comparison with starvation. Aside from seeing it myself, there is a lot of global data I can look up to confirm the truth of the plight of many people in different regions of the World.
So since this comparison was made, where's the comparable data to support the fact that it happens quite a bit?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3143
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Posted - 2015.02.12 03:20:46 -
[277] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Solairen wrote:Fact is it does happen and quite a bit. Can you show me those facts? They are nit available, except to CCP. Now, why would CCP want to change the rules of the game if it was not happening?
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
22482
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Posted - 2015.02.12 04:03:34 -
[278] - Quote
I find it disturbing that we have not one, but two CSM members who find it their solemn duty to support what appears to be an unjustified and ridiculous marginalization of the core game mechanic designed to make people more social: Player Corporations.
We've elected you because we think.. at the very least that you understand the game mechanics and the sociopolitical landscape of the different regions of EVE. We elected you so you can drive intelligent changes into the game that are designed to address deficiencies in the game.
Steve Ronuken wrote:How often have you heard of a group of newbies, being 'griefed out of the game', when all they wanted was a name of their own. I'd like Corp lite to be able to be upgraded to full corporations, but not the opposite.
Listen to the safari/awox/wardec expert in this thread. She has been telling you something different over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.
The problem is not awoxing. It is wardecs.
The problem is wardecs.
Fix wardecs.
Neither you nor Mike have been able to speak directly to actual awoxing statistics, which show that is has no significant usage in hisec at all. The link below should be known to you, and it fails to support your unfounded claim.
https://zkillboard.com/kills/awox/
corebloodbrothers wrote:This is to facilitate for example bombersbar, spectre fleet, both sides of rvb, language channels, al sorts of social connections people have which tie them too eve. I think its epic ccp realises the social power that is hidden in the community and giving it more tools too make eve more thier own and deliver content for themsleves and others.
This isn't about Bomber's Bar or any other quasicorp social group (please do try and make a better effort in inventing rationales). EVE already has language channels and persistent chat channels. EVE has fleets. EVE has mailing lists. Players have jabber, IRC, Teamspeak, websites, Google Docs, a variety of methods to join people who may not all be in a corp. CAS Corporation (http://cascorporation.com) already does this with random people in other NPC corps and their CAStabouts alliance.
You are fixing a problem that does not exist, and by doing so you are breaking Player Corporations, which need a better redefinition of value.
People need reasons to join Player Corporations. You are avoiding the problem by introducing an unrelated and unimaginative mechanic.
Friendship is the best ship.
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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David Campbell
The Scope Gallente Federation
73
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Posted - 2015.02.12 04:36:11 -
[279] - Quote
A lot of tears and butthurt people in this thread and I have to admit, when I first heard of the concept, I was reluctant too. But the truth is, the social corp that CCP wants to create already exist. They're called RVB Ganked, Spectre Fleet, Agony PVP Roams etc... And as far as I hate saying it, I can't see any good reason for CCP not trying to accommodate these groups with in-game tools.
Anyway, I guess I'd be ok with it as long as these social corps are different enough from actual corps. For example, if these social corps are only mailing list with bulletin, chat channels and overview settings... I also think the acceptance into such a corp should not be submitted to an approval process. If you apply, you're in. No one can refuse you access or kick you. Another point that I think is critical for these social corp to find a place in the EVE universe is that you must be able to be a member of more than one social corp at any given time AND that you are still required to be part of a 'normal' corporation, be it NPC or Player Run. Any aggression mechanic must still be determined by your allegiance to this normal corp for the game to stay balanced in my mind. |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
22482
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Posted - 2015.02.12 04:38:53 -
[280] - Quote
David Campbell wrote:A lot of tears and butthurt people in this thread
This is a good thing to start with when one does not have a substantive argument.
Friendship is the best ship.
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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David Campbell
The Scope Gallente Federation
73
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Posted - 2015.02.12 04:48:09 -
[281] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:David Campbell wrote:A lot of tears and butthurt people in this thread This is a good thing to start with when one does not have a substantive argument.
Sure, had it been the only thing I wrote along side 'TroLoLol' But the fact is most of the comments I read in this thread are from people who are stuck at the 'non war deckable' social corp concept. Almost no one as tried to understand why CCP thinks its a good thing for the game and what need these structure can fulfill. And I haven't read a single one that went ok, how to best address those needs...
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
22483
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Posted - 2015.02.12 04:52:15 -
[282] - Quote
David Campbell wrote:Sure, had it been the only thing I wrote along side 'TroLoLol' But the fact is most of the comments I read in this thread are from people who are stuck at the 'non war deckable' social corp concept. Almost no one as tried to understand why CCP thinks its a good thing for the game and what need these structure can fulfill. And I haven't read a single one that went ok, how to best address those needs...
What do you think is the problem CCP is trying to fix?
Do you think wardecs need fixing?
Do you think the way to fix wardecs is by introducing a completely new mechanic while simultaneously avoiding any work to fix wardec mechanics?
Friendship is the best ship.
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
607
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Posted - 2015.02.12 04:54:15 -
[283] - Quote
It isn't very clear what this social corp thing is going to be exactly. From what has been said so far, it sounds like "club" might be a better word for it.
Anyway. If this happens, I look forward to the Center of Advanced Studies social corpamajiggadoo. I've got a few characters in NPC corps and CAS is the only one that is kinda cool. My other NPC characters are totally jelly. |
David Campbell
The Scope Gallente Federation
73
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Posted - 2015.02.12 04:59:24 -
[284] - Quote
I don't think they are trying to fix any problem. I *think* they recognize the influence some informal groups such as RVB Ganked and Spectre fleet, or even some Incursion groups for that matter, have had on the game these past few years and they want to accommodate them with in game mechanics akin of what they did with alliance back in the day.
Is a 'non war deckable corp' the solution? If it's the only criteria and definition of what they want to create, then to me the answer is: absolutely not. But if done right and if these social corporations are different enough from normal corporations, then I think they can have a role to play in the eve universe. And being a member of both the RVB Ganked and the Agony Public PVP roam mailing lists, I wouldn't mind these groups being more supported in game as long as I can retain my corp affiliation. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
32910
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Posted - 2015.02.12 05:06:08 -
[285] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:They are not available, except to CCP. Now, why would CCP want to change the rules of the game if it was not happening? There could be many reasons, a lot probably tied in to providing players who would otherwise stay in NPC Corps, mechanisms for social interaction.
That's my understanding of what detail (very little) has been provided.
Not a single thing about the "group of newbies, being 'griefed out of the game'" that apparently happens "quite a bit".
If that is so common, why isn't there data to support it? There must be someone available to players.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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UberFly
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2015.02.12 14:49:38 -
[286] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:You must be new here. Those were actually specific Ads/trailers/posters made by ccp to advertise EvE. They spent years trying to attract the Villian crows with "Be the Villian" trailer and banners dude.
Kind of like the This is Eve fleet stuff. So yeah youre really wrong and dont know your eve history and look like an ignorant fool now.
Shailagh wrote:be the villan bannerhttps://spinksville.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/eve_ad.jpg Also specific trailers for expansions about being the badguy (ie trying to attract those types of new players) I know this is hard to grasp cuz ccp has catered and advertised to miners and wow players in the past few years, yet this game is 10yrs old. It used to advertise to attact those aasholes you hate. You must have reading comprehension issues. You see, my post pointed out, as do those trailers and ads, that you have a choice to play that way. They don't, in any way shape or form say "this is the only way to play the game". As you've also pointed out, you are looking at history, and like everything else Eve has evolved (as you have pointed out and yet miraculously failed to grasp). The current advertising and recruitment efforts are different from the past, they are looking for more cooperative players, for they make a more sustainable environment. Things change, suck-it-up buttercup. |
UberFly
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2015.02.12 15:05:30 -
[287] - Quote
David Campbell wrote:... I also think the acceptance into such a corp should not be submitted to an approval process. If you apply, you're in. No one can refuse you access or kick you. While I'm in agreement with the rest of your post, this simply wouldn't work. As with user-created channels, you need some type of moderator that can remove the occasional jack-wagon from chat. Having folks in chat that can spew whatever ignorance or vitriol they like would make these entities just as useless as NPC corp chat, and be counter-productive to the stated mission. |
Miomeifeng Alduin
Lithonauts Inc.
64
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Posted - 2015.02.12 15:05:31 -
[288] - Quote
Solairen wrote: I see this response a lot, and not just in this thread but in Crime and Punishment and other places.
Fact is it does happen and quite a bit. But these players just quietly leave and don't hop on these forums and rant, most probably don't even use the forums. So unless they are in your Corp you don't see it happening. I.e. people are still dying of starvation in other places. Just because you don't see it or they dont complain to you, doesn't mean they aren't. (Not comparing people quitting to starving people, just as a literary illustration).
The problem is the WarDec mechanism, and basically these players are risk averse, or to poor in their ISK (because they playing in free time and don't min/max to make isk or have the time to). They then spend all WarDec docked, then get bored, then quit. Lost Subs for CCP is lost employee pay-checks, thats hurts all of us that are still in the game.
I've seen two HS corp I had alts in effectively die this way. I watched the players leave in frustration, give their stuff away (yes i took some it) and walk away.
.
Just want to add: the players who do quit on the forums, then get the troll treatment anyway. Some would probably just quit anyway, but if you see a quitting post, most of the replies are: "gief ur stuff!!!" and "good riddance, go back to wow you loser" |
David Campbell
The Scope Gallente Federation
75
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Posted - 2015.02.12 15:25:31 -
[289] - Quote
UberFly wrote:David Campbell wrote:... I also think the acceptance into such a corp should not be submitted to an approval process. If you apply, you're in. No one can refuse you access or kick you. While I'm in agreement with the rest of your post, this simply wouldn't work. As with user-created channels, you need some type of moderator that can remove the occasional jack-wagon from chat. Having folks in chat that can spew whatever ignorance or vitriol they like would make these entities just as useless as NPC corp chat, and be counter-productive to the stated mission.
I see what you mean and I guess some moderation from the players would be necessary. Maybe the administrators of such a social corp could retain some control over the chat channels, and be able to kick someone from fleet... But I really hope that getting into such a corp would be similar to following someone on twitter, or subscribing to a youtube channel. They create the content and the rest of the player decide whether they want to be part of it or not. Anything more than that would start to step onto the territory of player corporations to much for my liking. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
282
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Posted - 2015.02.12 15:30:36 -
[290] - Quote
David Campbell wrote:UberFly wrote:David Campbell wrote:... I also think the acceptance into such a corp should not be submitted to an approval process. If you apply, you're in. No one can refuse you access or kick you. While I'm in agreement with the rest of your post, this simply wouldn't work. As with user-created channels, you need some type of moderator that can remove the occasional jack-wagon from chat. Having folks in chat that can spew whatever ignorance or vitriol they like would make these entities just as useless as NPC corp chat, and be counter-productive to the stated mission. I see what you mean and I guess some moderation from the players would be necessary. Maybe the administrators of such a social corp could retain some control over the chat channels, and be able to kick someone from fleet... But I really hope that getting into such a corp would be similar to following someone on twitter, or subscribing to a youtube channel. They create the content and the rest of the player decide whether they want to be part of it or not. Anything more than that would start to step onto the territory of player corporations to much for my liking.
The NPSI groups i fly with, this is exactly what it would be like. Very low barrier to entry and quite frankly hard to get kicked from. It is nothing more than a few more in game tools to organize fleets that are not corp centric. ie a place for fits, notices, and not silly limitations on mailing list numbers.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Lan Wang
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
155
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Posted - 2015.02.12 15:45:47 -
[291] - Quote
confirmed another post about crying wardeccers not getting to wardec the helpless.
maybe the wardeccers might get bored and eventually leave highsec for low and null, in turn creating more content to low and nullsec
EVEALON Creative --á****Logo Design | Killboard Banners | -áWeb Design | Website Graphics
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Jallukola
39
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Posted - 2015.02.12 16:31:42 -
[292] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:confirmed another post about crying wardeccers not getting to wardec the helpless.
maybe the wardeccers might get bored and eventually leave highsec for low and null, in turn creating more content to low and nullsec
Fat chance, most wardeccers are scared of null. They rather pick on the helpless than go get swarmed upon, becoming helpless themself. Like a circle closed with sweet irony.
The greatest battle music of all time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67MPxnPHBNk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16RCvtziXj0
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Joan Miles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.02.12 16:39:27 -
[293] - Quote
Jallukola wrote:Lan Wang wrote:confirmed another post about crying wardeccers not getting to wardec the helpless.
maybe the wardeccers might get bored and eventually leave highsec for low and null, in turn creating more content to low and nullsec Fat chance, most wardeccers are scared of null. They rather pick on the helpless than go get swarmed upon, becoming helpless themself. Like a circle closed with sweet irony.
Hey Low and Null are scary! Stuff can shoot back.. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6536
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Posted - 2015.02.12 22:45:23 -
[294] - Quote
Social pve corps
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Lena Lazair
Khanid Irregulars Khanid's Legion
246
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Posted - 2015.02.12 23:23:24 -
[295] - Quote
Kaelynne Rose wrote:It was an exploit. No ifs ands or buts. Bears got in trouble for it over and over. The complained and cried on the forums like you are doing now and CCP eventually caved in and took away exploit-status from it. They did NOT deem it as Mechanics Working As Intended. They simply stopped enforcing the rule about it
Are we talking about war dec dodging or hyperdunking?
I have a hard time remembering when using mechanics is "emergent gameplay" and when it's "whiney carebears avoiding l33t pvp". Maybe you could publish a guide to help clarify that for us. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14974
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Posted - 2015.02.12 23:42:24 -
[296] - Quote
Lena Lazair wrote:Kaelynne Rose wrote:It was an exploit. No ifs ands or buts. Bears got in trouble for it over and over. The complained and cried on the forums like you are doing now and CCP eventually caved in and took away exploit-status from it. They did NOT deem it as Mechanics Working As Intended. They simply stopped enforcing the rule about it Are we talking about war dec dodging or hyperdunking? I have a hard time remembering when using mechanics is "emergent gameplay" and when it's "whiney carebears avoiding l33t pvp". Maybe you could publish a guide to help clarify that for us.
Dec dodging. It used to be a no no.
As for the subject at had, I need more info before I can say anything.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
32973
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Posted - 2015.02.12 23:49:29 -
[297] - Quote
Joan Miles wrote: Hey Low and Null are scary! Stuff can shoot back.. Stuff can shoot back in highsec just the same.
Freely to under a wardec (since that's specifically what was being discussed).
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3690
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Posted - 2015.02.12 23:56:02 -
[298] - Quote
Joan Miles wrote:Jallukola wrote:Lan Wang wrote:confirmed another post about crying wardeccers not getting to wardec the helpless.
maybe the wardeccers might get bored and eventually leave highsec for low and null, in turn creating more content to low and nullsec Fat chance, most wardeccers are scared of null. They rather pick on the helpless than go get swarmed upon, becoming helpless themself. Like a circle closed with sweet irony. Hey Low and Null are scary! Stuff can shoot back.. Nah. But they might light a cyno.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Lena Lazair
Khanid Irregulars Khanid's Legion
246
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:03:33 -
[299] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dec dodging. It used to be a no no.
So was hyperdunking, until a wave of forum complaining and petitions, causing CCP to change their mind.
There is no difference in the two scenarios described by the post I was quoting. Hyperdunking was a use of gameplay mechanics deemed illegal, petitioned, whined about on the forums, and eventually overturned so CCP could wash their hands of it. And so was wardec dodging.
So why is one some kind of fantastic emergent gameplay and the other is a carebear fantasyland of whine and CCP caving in?
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
19807
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:04:53 -
[300] - Quote
So when can we expect the name change from "Highsec" to "Trammelsec"?
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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