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Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
47
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Posted - 2011.12.01 00:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
The Dramiel's prices in the market have been dropping like a Rokh. Yes, it got nerfed, but I don't think most people realize that it can still fill the same role, despite the nerf.
I grabbed the "testing" EFT with data from the SiSi Crucible build (it is only missing extra damage for blasters, which is irrelevant anyway) to try out some fittings for the new Dramiel. I have found that if, in the old "classic" dual-prop Dramiel fit, you replace the MAPC with a nano, and use a Small Ancillary Current Router II rig, you get a Dramiel in the new system that is funcionally identical to the old one, albeit with a bit lower numbers. The detailed screenshots are here, but some highlights:
- Speed (AB, no heat): Old = 1932 m/s, New = 1849 m/s
- Speed (MWD, no heat): Old = 5059 m/s, New = 4696 m/s
- DPS (no heat, with drones): Old = 183, New = 171
- EHP: Old = 7011, New = 6688 (due to nano; shield and armor hp are same)
- Align time (AB, no heat): Old = 3.8 s, New = 3.7 s (due to nano)
- Scan res: Old = 1237.5 mm, New = 937.5 mm
(I will update these with Crucible EFT once it comes out)
This is not a significant nerf! Sure, it's a bit harder to fit (you need near-perfect or perfect fitting skills), but perhaps without good skills you shouldn't be flying a pirate faction frigate.
I am wondering what specific effect the nerf was supposed to have on the Dramiel, because very little has changed about it. As someone who likes flying a variety of frigate and cruiser sized ships, I am a bit disappointed that this drop in the Dramiel population is likely only going to be a momentary thing.
Edited for link fail Edited for scan res, not sig res |
Sin Meng
Creative Assembly
26
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Posted - 2011.12.01 00:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Half the power of a nerf comes from the gesture itself, and now you've ruined it!
No seriously, you're going to make people fly this thing again. Elements of the past and the future combining to make something not quite as good as either. |
Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
47
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Posted - 2011.12.01 00:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's best to make these things come to light publicly rather than have Dramiel pilots "keep a secret" that it's still just as good. Better chance of people doing something about this this way. |
Big Bad Mofo
Retribution.
53
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Posted - 2011.12.01 00:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Quote:it's a bit harder to fit (you need near-perfect or perfect fitting skills)
You said it right there, now not any tom **** and harry can fly it...theres your nerf, plus some of the minus stats on top of that.. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
160
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Posted - 2011.12.01 00:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:use a Small Ancillary Current Router II rig,
What's the price on that baby? I live, I post, I slay. I am content. Alpha Flight --á an open-source initiative for newbies looking for PVP. Join channel ''Alpha Flight'' in game https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40104 |
Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 00:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:use a Small Ancillary Current Router II rig, What's the price on that baby?
15 mil. Hardly a reason not to fly the Dramiel, considering it's classically fit with expensive stuff to begin with. |
Zions Child
Odyssey Inc SpaceMonkey's Alliance
203
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Posted - 2011.12.01 00:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
This is how balance works, small changes can lead to large changes in effectiveness. No ship has a particularly large lead over the others (at least the ones for particular roles, PvE vs PvP ships not withstanding). |
Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 00:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Big Bad Mofo wrote:Quote:it's a bit harder to fit (you need near-perfect or perfect fitting skills) You said it right there, now not any tom **** and harry can fly it...theres your nerf, plus some of the minus stats on top of that..
If only it were the idiots flying it that were the problem. The people without good fitting skills would probably fly arty Dramiel or other such abominations. The ones who know how to fly it also know how to fit ships very tightly for PvP, and that includes tight fitting skills. |
Bad Messenger
draketrain
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 00:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Purpose was not to make it useless either, it got just a bit nerf.
You should also remember that some other frigates got some boost at same time so overall result can be still balanced.
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Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 00:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:Purpose was not to make it useless either, it got just a bit nerf.
You should also remember that some other frigates got some boost at same time so overall result can be still balanced.
So far as I understood from F&I discussion, the purpose was to eliminate the asshattery of the dual-prop MSE fit, since with its AB speed the Dramiel couldn't be caught or combated by almost anything. IMO, the change in numbers shown is not enough to fulfill that purpose. Every other faction frigate is a lot less survivable, while not being much more powerful in raw power than the Dramiel. Look at the Cruor, Succubus, Worm, and even the Daredevil (even if one has a good chance to murder a Dramiel 1v1).
I was expecting the Dramiel to be as much a valid choice as the other pirate faction frigates -- specialty "shiny" ships that you use to minmax them to their strengths, which absolutely shine in some situations, but give you an embarassing lossmail when used in the wrong situation. With dual-prop and MSE, the Dramiel misses the latter part, making it far more dangerous than the others. |
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Vachir Khan
TriSeq Defence Group
80
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Posted - 2011.12.01 00:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:The Dramiel's prices in the market have been dropping like a Rokh. Yes, it got nerfed, but I don't think most people realize that it can still fill the same role, despite the nerf. I grabbed the "testing" EFT with data from the SiSi Crucible build (it is only missing extra damage for blasters, which is irrelevant anyway) to try out some fittings for the new Dramiel. I have found that if, in the old "classic" dual-prop Dramiel fit, you replace the MAPC with a nano, and use a Small Ancillary Current Router II rig, you get a Dramiel in the new system that is funcionally identical to the old one, albeit with a bit lower numbers. The detailed screenshots are here, but some highlights:
- Speed (AB, no heat): Old = 1932 m/s, New = 1849 m/s
- Speed (MWD, no heat): Old = 5059 m/s, New = 4696 m/s
- DPS (no heat, with drones): Old = 183, New = 171
- EHP: Old = 7011, New = 6688 (due to nano; shield and armor hp are same)
- Align time (AB, no heat): Old = 3.8 s, New = 3.7 s (due to nano)
- Sig res: Old = 1237.5 mm, New = 937.5 mm
(I will update these with Crucible EFT once it comes out) This is not a significant nerf! Sure, it's a bit harder to fit (you need near-perfect or perfect fitting skills), but perhaps without good skills you shouldn't be flying a pirate faction frigate. I am wondering what specific effect the nerf was supposed to have on the Dramiel, because very little has changed about it. As someone who likes flying a variety of frigate and cruiser sized ships, I am a bit disappointed that this drop in the Dramiel population is likely only going to be a momentary thing. Edited for link fail
Thanks for figuring that out, it seems that CCP still has a hardon for Minmatar, they just can't get themselves to stop making it uber. Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let there be light" they'd have called the light gay and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
160
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 00:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Looks like it needs a 50% speed nerf, not 5% I live, I post, I slay. I am content. Alpha Flight --á an open-source initiative for newbies looking for PVP. Join channel ''Alpha Flight'' in game https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40104 |
Warlord DerekSegan
Fatal Solution
0
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Posted - 2011.12.01 00:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hm..
It isn't as good as it was before, certainly. It's not an iWin button.
But you are right, it still is either the best or second best frigate hull.
But I am OK with that. |
Marcus Caspius
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 01:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Stop @#$^%@#$ crying and friggin' adapt!
World of Whiners is that way --->>> |
Berendas
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
21
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Posted - 2011.12.01 01:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Marcus Caspius wrote:Stop @#$^%@#$ crying and friggin' adapt! World of Whiners is that way --->>>
Says the obvious Dram pilot who can't bear to see his ezmode nerfed. |
Cipher Jones
121
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Posted - 2011.12.01 02:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
Quote:I am wondering what specific effect the nerf was supposed to have on the Dramiel,
Dual prop was the main nerf.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
160
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 02:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:I am wondering what specific effect the nerf was supposed to have on the Dramiel, Dual prop was the main nerf.
So now they have to choose.
Do I want to go 3 times as fast as anybody else, or 5 times as fast? I live, I post, I slay. I am content. Alpha Flight --á an open-source initiative for newbies looking for PVP. Join channel ''Alpha Flight'' in game https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40104 |
Emiko Luan
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
9
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Posted - 2011.12.01 03:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
To be fair the "requires a t2 rig" makes it more expensive in both fitting and isk, I think it's ok for now.... maybe we should just wait and see... +welcome to my world+ http://venomzer0.deviantart.com |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
156
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Posted - 2011.12.01 03:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Looks like it needs a 50% speed nerf, not 5%
and make it useless?
now don't get me wrong. dram needed a nerf. But between just "nerfing" it or making it totally useless, I prefer the former. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
567
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 04:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
None of this really matters, since with a 10% damage buff the Daredevil will be the new Dramiel anyways. And by that I mean, a perfectly killable frigate that is declared to be "unbeatable" in solo engagements and therefore fuels forum threads full of angst for a few more months until the next round of balancing elevates something else to the pole position. |
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
156
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 04:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:None of this really matters, since with a 10% damage buff the Daredevil will be the new Dramiel anyways. And by that I mean, a perfectly killable frigate that is declared to be "unbeatable" in solo engagements and therefore fuels forum threads full of angst for a few more months until the next round of balancing elevates something else to the pole position.
10? well unless you're talking about rail DD.
blaster DD got the damage boosted by 5% afaik. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Russell Casey
One Ton Reverberation Project
107
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 04:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lol@ frigs that cost more than a BS. |
St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
157
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 05:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
Scan res not sig res |
JC Anderson
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
128
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 05:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
St Mio wrote:Scan res not sig res
Was about to comment on that.
It lost over 200 points in scan resolution in the patch. The OP however lists sig. |
Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 07:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
St Mio wrote:Scan res not sig res
Ack!! It's a pet peeve of mine when people screw that up, but I fell for it. Fail. |
Big Bad Mofo
Retribution.
53
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 12:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Big Bad Mofo wrote:Quote:it's a bit harder to fit (you need near-perfect or perfect fitting skills) You said it right there, now not any tom **** and harry can fly it...theres your nerf, plus some of the minus stats on top of that.. If only it were the idiots flying it that were the problem. The people without good fitting skills would probably fly arty Dramiel or other such abominations. The ones who know how to fly it also know how to fit ships very tightly for PvP, and that includes tight fitting skills.
Yeah but thats up to them if they are going to fly a stupidly fit dramiel, its like saying people shouldnt fly any pirate ship becuase they basically dont have the know how to do it. I mean seriously how many fits have you seen on ships that are so random its untrue. You dont need to worry about people who badly fit a dramiel, becuase they are not an issue. The issue was people who did fit them well, and fly them well, thats what made them shall we say overpowered. Now those people cannot fit the ship as well any more, even with very very good skills. Those cutting down the number of people who can fly them, also because of the nerf it will have less cpu which was really tight anyway, and less powergrid which was always tight, and less speed. Your stats show that there is still for a frigate quite a significant reduction, remember those are frig changes which do have a dramatic effect on the ship, if it was a BS then yeah those drops are nothing, but for a frig its alot. Tbh i dont think people will fly drams now, this is what always happens with every ship. It happened to the Vaga, the zealot, nano ships etc. They are all flavour of the month, but once they get nerfed they are on the scrapheap and people stop flying them because they are not as powerful and have that unfair advantage as they did before. I know many people who have sold their drams now, and personally i dont think i will fly one again, even though i had many before the patch. |
Elson Tamar
Lion Investments
58
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 13:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
or of course the OP is trying to prop up his failing Drem production company? |
Lady Spank
GET OUT NASTY FACE
230
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 13:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
It still dies to Tristans ^______^
This rebalance stops it being disgustingly OP, it doesn't stop it being a good and viable ship. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ Get Out, Nasty Face ~ (a¦á_a¦â)
Signature edited. Navigator. |
Onictus
The Scope Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 13:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:It still dies to Tristans ^______^
This rebalance stops it being disgustingly OP, it doesn't stop it being a good and viable ship.
Sounds like mission accomplished. |
Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
219
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 13:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
blabla, leave the ship alone.
It's meant to be that way. It's just the weaklings who complain about it.
Now go EFT Warrior somewhere else.
Vagina ! |
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