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Haster Kerman
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.02.03 04:37:55 -
[1] - Quote
Do target painters, and bloated sigs in general effect gun application in deep falloff?
Or is sig just a thing to determine how well guns apply to targets with high angular? |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2249
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Posted - 2015.02.03 05:31:27 -
[2] - Quote
Short answer: painters only help with transversal.
Long answer: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5219030 |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
951
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Posted - 2015.02.03 08:55:25 -
[3] - Quote
In between answer: yes it does because of how tracking speed interacts with range and sig. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2250
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Posted - 2015.02.03 17:21:51 -
[4] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:In between answer: yes it does because of how tracking speed interacts with range and sig.
Don't muddy the waters on this. Painters do not help with range issues.
Since this has now come up twice in three months I've gone ahead and made a quick spreadsheet.
It's open to editing so go ahead and play with it. At the time of writing I've entered an all 5 425 II on a Sleipnir as the gun and a pretty typical cruiser rat as the target. The Sleipnir has an optimal of of about 1800m and a falloff of about 27000m. If you set the range to optimal + falloff you'll see that the first term in the tracking formula is rather near 0 but the second term is at about 1 for an overall hit chance of about 0.5. It's that second number that is reducing the hit chance, not the first.
Ok, now apply a painter. Let's go all out and use a domination painter on a Minny recon: that's a 61.875% signature increase. What happens? The first term in the to hit formula gets even closer to 0 and the second term doesn't move at all. Hit chance is virtually unchanged.
This is exactly the expected behaviour. Since hit chance is determined by 0.5 raised to the sum of the two individual factors (falloff in the second term and signature and tracking in the first term) a painter won't help with falloff hit reduction in the least. Painters (and webs for that matter) will only help mitigate hit reduction if that reduction is coming from signature or transversal speed and will help not one bit if the hit reduction comes from falloff. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1036
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Posted - 2015.02.04 08:57:14 -
[5] - Quote
Actually, your answer is misleading or at very best only partially true.
- first of all the "only when transversal happens" is a bit misleading. Assuming 0 transversal is pretty much EFT warrioring, even if your ship shows to be moving at 0m/s but you're not actually completely to a full stop in a direction that isn't true straight at the target you will have some sort of transversal, same for the target of course. And then the whole tracking formula starts to work
- you're assuming an even size target, cruiser weapons vs cruiser target, where the overall hit chance is already high. Against under sized targets (vs a frigate, or BS turrets vs cruiser or frigates) it really affects and can make quite a difference if you use a realistic scenario where true 0 transversal is pretty much non-existent.
So, yes in realistic situations a painter can affect your turret performance as long as the target is smaller than your guns and/or the angular is high compared to the turret's tracking. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2254
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Posted - 2015.02.04 09:43:19 -
[6] - Quote
Who said anything about assuming 0 transversal?
Let's do another calculation: AB Vengeance has a sig of 37m. It's spiraling in 30 degrees off of tangential with a speed of 861m/s. Effective transversal speed is 746m/s. Same Sleipnir is using the same 425 II. At a range of 20km overall hit chance is 47% with no painter.
However, you're right that the first term is now more important than the second. So let's apply an arbitrary 50% painter. Hit chance goes up to 60%. So yes, that helps. And it's enough that it's worth noting.
The answer remains the same though. Painters DO NOT help mitigate damage reduction from falloff, which was the original question. Painters obviously DO help when trying to mitigate the effects of signature and transversal. And yes, they do help more when dealing with smaller targets, especially when those targets are moving tangentially or near-tangentially to the point of fire.
If we were to drop the range further -- say, to 12km -- the painter makes a huge difference since transversal is now higher due to low range. No painter? Hit chance 25%. With arbitrary 50% painter? 52%. But then we'd probably want to skip the painter and apply a 60% web instead -- which gives us a 74% hit chance.
Yes, it's all situational, but at the end of the day a painter isn't going to help you much deep in falloff no matter what you're shooting at: the second term in the hit formula just takes over under those circumstances. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1036
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Posted - 2015.02.04 10:38:45 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:Do target painters, and bloated sigs in general effect gun application in deep falloff?
They don't affect falloff calculations but they CAN affect damage application in falloff (or any other range). Overall answer; yes
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
952
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Posted - 2015.02.04 14:27:03 -
[8] - Quote
look at the original question again:
"affect gun application in deep falloff?"
for all intents and purposes, this is YES. Increasing a target's signature will mean that you will apply better at any range, until you hit your theoretical dps cap. |
Fenris Orion
Rapid Withdrawal
30
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Posted - 2015.02.04 21:14:44 -
[9] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Actually, your answer is misleading or at very best only partially true.
- first of all the "only when transversal happens" is a bit misleading. Assuming 0 transversal is pretty much EFT warrioring, even if your ship shows to be moving at 0m/s but you're not actually completely to a full stop in a direction that isn't true straight at the target you will have some sort of transversal, same for the target of course. And then the whole tracking formula starts to work
- you're assuming an even size target, cruiser weapons vs cruiser target, where the overall hit chance is already high. Against under sized targets (vs a frigate, or BS turrets vs cruiser or frigates) it really affects and can make quite a difference if you use a realistic scenario where true 0 transversal is pretty much non-existent.
So yes, in realistic situations a painter can affect your turret performance as long as the target is smaller than your guns and/or the angular is high compared to the turret's tracking. However, the effect isn't falloff specific but affects overall turret performance.
A more realistic scenario where one might use a painter on a gunboat would be a Sniper Talos with 425mm Rails trying to hit a frigate burning toward it at a shallow angle, say 15 degrees. I don't have the damage graphs to work with, but the difference between a Grazing hit and a Smashing hit would be pretty big in this scenario. Just my two cents... |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1048
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Posted - 2015.02.05 00:03:39 -
[10] - Quote
exactly, the frigate would just need a tiny bit of transversal to completely fck up 425 rails, so painters (even though not the preferred method for turrets) will help with that as long as it's within painter optimal, outside optimal it gets erratic. |
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Nalia White
Tencus
67
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Posted - 2015.02.05 21:01:46 -
[11] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:look at the original question again:
"affect gun application in deep falloff?"
for all intents and purposes, this is YES. Increasing a target's signature will mean that you will apply better at any range, until you hit your theoretical dps cap.
this! yes is correct for how he asked. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
5
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Posted - 2015.02.15 00:18:31 -
[12] - Quote
I had a feeling this link would go to that thread :)
Haster Kerman wrote:Or is sig just a thing to determine how well guns apply to targets with high angular?
This is the correct answer.
You would expect a bloomed sig radius to increase your chance to hit something that's at the edge of your falloff, but unfortunately, falloff chance to hit reduction doesn't incorporate sig radius. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but that's just the way it works. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1385
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Posted - 2015.02.15 00:27:13 -
[13] - Quote
"To hit" for a turret depends on two things: range and tracking. Target painters will increase the tracking portion of the "to hit" equation, but since the two parts multiply instead of add, if you're deep in falloff a painter won't really help.
EDIT: To clarify, the painter will help your "to hit" chance at any range, but once you get deep into falloff, the range penalty will overpower the benefit of the painter to the point where it is largely negated.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Arla Sarain
291
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Posted - 2015.02.16 15:22:03 -
[14] - Quote
Strictly speaking - no. Painters affect sig radius and for a stationary target Sig radius does not affect damage losses due to range.
The examples brought in this thread are valid in practice, because there are plenty occasions when your target is not stationary in the transversal sense. For them to be stationary in the transversal sense, they'd either be not moving, or moving towards you in a straight line.
As Bronson Hughes describes, it is only relevant because turret hit chance is dependent on both range and tracking. |
Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
541
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Posted - 2015.02.16 18:39:33 -
[15] - Quote
On the other hand, someone burning for your Sniping Naga at 0 transversal is a) not particularly likely and b) not going to be a problem. |
Asp IV
Apex Abyss
1
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Posted - 2015.02.17 13:31:18 -
[16] - Quote
It depends on target size and gun tracking range. (which again interacts with damage application in geographical range) bloating a drone in deep falloff my not lead to a hit with some guns/bonuses/skill/implants/boosters/RNG. But may lead to damage application, eg better quality hits, with frig sized guns falloff or guns with higher tracking regardless of deep fall off. Tracking target in falloff is already high enough for most cases, but again. OP should Post exacktly the type of guns/ammo and target. and tranvsersal on both attacker and target (game transversal).
. But painting a "bigger target can indeed" can indeed lead it to be trackable by guns in fall off. Damage application and incresed dps is another question. |
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