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Shirley Serious
Gutter Press
95
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Posted - 2015.02.08 12:25:18 -
[1] - Quote
Recently, Gutter Press uncovered some rumours that several Amarr Faithful had married known heretics, in an effort to compel the heretics to repent and embrace the Imperial Orthodox Faith.
Several notable capsuleers were implicated, although all denied even contemplating such a course of action.
Gutter Press spoke with a bishop from the Throne Worlds who had this to say:
"Marrying a heretic in order to convert them is a fools errand", said the bishop "They must convert first, otherwise they would contaminate any children of the marriage"
A bishop from Kador region also condemned such actions:
"How any sane Orthodox Faithful could contemplate bringing a heretic into a church to have their marriage recognised before God is beyond me. A heretic cannot honestly state the wedding vows."
Gutter Press also spoke with a number of Holders and some Commoners, within the greater Amarr sphere.
"Marrying heretics ? well, that's a bit foolish, surely ?", said one Tash-Murkon Holder.
"I tell you though, some of those heretic ladies are quite pretty. Not wife material though. Definitely only suitable for a concubine", said a Kor-Azor Holder.
"Is this about those propaganda posters, with those Sani sabik ladies in revealing attire?" asked an Ardishapur commoner. "Down with that sort of thing."
"Sani Sabik theology is akin to carrying an umbrella to shield yourself from a meteor storm", said a Sarum commoner. "It's frankly ludicrous"
"I bet this is some kind of bizarre reverse psychology Sani Sabik mind games", said a Khanid Kingdom capsuleer.
Whatever the truth is behind these rumours, Gutter Press will root it out. |
Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
128
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Posted - 2015.02.08 12:52:32 -
[2] - Quote
My mother, an Amarrian, married a Civire Caldari who at the time did not follow the Orthodox faith. Does that make her just as bad as this? Who are these people to judge whom marries whom?
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Candi LeMew
Isogen 5
19858
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Posted - 2015.02.08 13:25:59 -
[3] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Who are these people to judge whom marries whom? This.
Sounds like my Boss. Except she's not married or Amarrian, and her lovely man is a former slave and not a Sani Sabik.
Still, makes me wonder how it'll go down back in The State if they ever do tie the knot. Not that I care, so proud of her.
=ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ...
"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
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Tiberious Thessalonia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
2264
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Posted - 2015.02.08 15:24:27 -
[4] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Who are these people to judge whom marries whom?
Bishops.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1204
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Posted - 2015.02.08 15:57:31 -
[5] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:My mother, an Amarrian, married a Civire Caldari who at the time did not follow the Orthodox faith. Does that make her just as bad as this? Who are these people to judge whom marries whom?
They are wise men and leaders of the faith.
As for your mother, I'd say it was improper, yes. At the very least any union shouldn't have occurred until after your father took up the faith. Since you say 'at the time' I assume he eventually did, so at least there was a positive result. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1204
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Posted - 2015.02.08 16:00:02 -
[6] - Quote
It should also be noted, Mr. Onzo, that your father was an infidel, not a heretic. The biggest temporal issue in the case of your parents is that your father could not be a citizen of Amarr until taking up the faith. The spiritual problems while they should be resolved prior to the marriage and certainly prior to any children, are ones that can be worked on with time.
A heretic on the other hand is a criminal and so such a union is of a decidedly more severe nature, and one that would certainly not be blessed by any righteous cleric. |
Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
129
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Posted - 2015.02.08 16:03:01 -
[7] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:It should also be noted, Mr. Onzo, that your father was an infidel, not a heretic. A heretic is a criminal in Amarr society and so such a union is of a decidedly more severe nature, and one that would certainly not be blessed by any righteous cleric.
I hope you will understand that I take offense to the term Infidel towards my late father. Marriage between two persons in my mind is still the business of the couple.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1204
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Posted - 2015.02.08 16:08:06 -
[8] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:It should also be noted, Mr. Onzo, that your father was an infidel, not a heretic. A heretic is a criminal in Amarr society and so such a union is of a decidedly more severe nature, and one that would certainly not be blessed by any righteous cleric. I hope you will understand that I take offense to the term Infidel towards my late father. Marriage between two persons in my mind is still the business of the couple.
It is the business of the family.
It reflects poorly on your mother and her family to have a heathen in the family line, and it threatens the spiritual integrity of any children if the faithless parent is not converted prior to their birth. It also represents major practical issues in that any faithless parent will be at best a temporary resident in Amarr and likely to have various restrictions on employment, medical coverage, and insurance. You must be a member of the faith to become a citizen in Amarr, and thus to have access to all of the various benefits that being a citizen grants.
There's also the simple fact that a marriage between a member of the faith and a heathen will be a difficult one that will probably entail significant disagreements and so threatens the permanency of the union. This obviously didn't happen with yours, but it is a risk that threatens any union pairing people with such major differences in belief. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
890
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Posted - 2015.02.08 16:22:02 -
[9] - Quote
The real issue is : does marriage in the Amarr Empire systematically gives Amarr citizenship to the other party, or not ? I do not think so, but if someone has more information on the matter I would be interested to hear about it.
So it is mostly a religious issue where people marry other people to convert them. Here, with heretics apparently. I find it rather weird that the MIO has not acted severely on such cases. Generally, when someone marries, or just has the habit to talk with heretics repeatedly, that someone usually finds himself in a certain amount of troubles with Amarrian justice. |
Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
130
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Posted - 2015.02.08 16:22:44 -
[10] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:It should also be noted, Mr. Onzo, that your father was an infidel, not a heretic. A heretic is a criminal in Amarr society and so such a union is of a decidedly more severe nature, and one that would certainly not be blessed by any righteous cleric. I hope you will understand that I take offense to the term Infidel towards my late father. Marriage between two persons in my mind is still the business of the couple. It is the business of the family. It reflects poorly on your mother and her family to have a heathen in the family line, and it threatens the spiritual integrity of any children if the faithless parent is not converted prior to their birth. It also represents major practical issues in that any faithless parent will be at best a temporary resident in Amarr and likely to have various restrictions on employment, medical coverage, and insurance. You must be a member of the faith to become a citizen in Amarr, and thus to have access to all of the various benefits that being a citizen grants. There's also the simple fact that a marriage between a member of the faith and a heathen will be a difficult one that will probably entail significant disagreements and so threatens the permanency of the union. This obviously didn't happen with yours, but it is a risk that threatens any union pairing people with such major differences in belief.
And this is why I dont get on with my grandfather. The Faith and my grandfather didn't own my parents affections, lord rest their souls, and they certainatly will not own mine.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Candi LeMew
Isogen 5
19888
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Posted - 2015.02.08 16:40:42 -
[11] - Quote
Kinda depressing to read responses to Mr Onzo.
Makes me glad I live in Anoikis, am not religious and don't care a moment about any politics.
Guess I have a wide, varied and free future ahead.
=ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ...
"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
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Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
130
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Posted - 2015.02.08 16:42:49 -
[12] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Kinda depressing to read responses to Mr Onzo.
Makes me glad I live in Anoikis, am not religious and don't care a moment about any politics.
Guess I have a wide, varied and free future ahead.
Likewise. The Provist government of the time in the State and the general lack of humanity I found from my mother's side of my family led me to conclude empire space isn't for me.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1205
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Posted - 2015.02.08 17:00:30 -
[13] - Quote
Lack of humanity, coming from the person who believes that something as important as marriage should be rushed into at the whim of the couple.
But of course, foreigners think that even something like polyamory between three women who decided just a few hours earlier that a union seemed like a fun idea is an acceptable kind of "marriage", because hey people should be allowed to do whatever they want even when the whole thing is unhealthy for everyone involved.
Marriage isn't about just you and your personal wishes. It is one of the most important things people will ever do in their lives and something that needs to be thought through with care and patience. To marry someone outside the faith is to hurt your family, your friends, and your children, and to jeopardize your own partnership and your faith. If there's any lack of humanity, it's coming from the people who'd rather risk all of that because of feelings that they can't even be sure will last.
Lyn Farel wrote:The real issue is : does marriage in the Amarr Empire systematically gives Amarr citizenship to the other party, or not ? I do not think so, but if someone has more information on the matter I would be interested to hear about it.
No, marriage doesn't confer citizenship in the Empire. You must be a member of the faith to be a citizen. I'm not even sure if the marriage itself would be recognized if one of the two was outside the faith. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4490
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Posted - 2015.02.08 17:56:37 -
[14] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:It should also be noted, Mr. Onzo, that your father was an infidel, not a heretic. A heretic is a criminal in Amarr society and so such a union is of a decidedly more severe nature, and one that would certainly not be blessed by any righteous cleric. I hope you will understand that I take offense to the term Infidel towards my late father. Marriage between two persons in my mind is still the business of the couple. Speaking as a Caldari and an infidel, whether or not you enjoy the terms, Samira is correct in using them. Moreover in neither of the cultures that your parents came from is marriage considered to be simply a matter involving only the two people involved. I can't say what the requirements are in Amarr, but my own marriage required a genetic investigation by the Hall of Records and permission from my Corporation.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4490
|
Posted - 2015.02.08 17:58:38 -
[15] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Kinda depressing to read responses to Mr Onzo.
Makes me glad I live in Anoikis, am not religious and don't care a moment about any politics.
Guess I have a wide, varied and free future ahead.
In your tiny wormhole. You must have meant to say narrow, limited and free.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
310
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Posted - 2015.02.08 18:09:51 -
[16] - Quote
I, Nauplius, Prophet of God and leader of the sect of Naupliusism, do hereby seek a wife and concubines for the purpose of insuring the perpetuation of the Faith by means of producing faithful progeny. A prospective wife or concubine need not be a member of the Faith at this time; if the mother declines to join the Faith before the birth of my children, then all child-rearing will be performed by slaves without her involvement. The reward for my wife and concubines who join the Faith shall be glorious GÇö extravagant titles such as "Mother of the Believers" and assured admission to Paradise. Those ladies who decline to join the Faith will receive lesser but still glorious titles along with assurance from being sentenced to Lower Hell at the final Judgement. Privacy of all reasonable inquiries will be respected. No Minmatar need apply. Amen. Amarr Victor. |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
405
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Posted - 2015.02.08 18:33:59 -
[17] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote: But of course, foreigners think that even something like polyamory between three women who decided just a few hours earlier that a union seemed like a fun idea is an acceptable kind of "marriage", because hey people should be allowed to do whatever they want even when the whole thing is unhealthy for everyone involved.
I assure you my pleasure hub sessions are all scrupulously well monitored for the health and safety of all participants. We take water breaks and everything!
That whole triple marriage thing was just part of an extended roleplay session, nothing more. When you don't have much in the way of actual boundaries, sometimes you have to set up fake ones to enjoy "violating." Quite fun, you should try it! |
Candi LeMew
Isogen 5
19888
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Posted - 2015.02.08 18:36:10 -
[18] - Quote
Good for you, Mr Nauplius!
Didn't see that coming. The Boss would be turning in her cryotube.
About time you got outta your shell a little. Good luck, sir!
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Candi LeMew wrote:Kinda depressing to read responses to Mr Onzo.
Makes me glad I live in Anoikis, am not religious and don't care a moment about any politics.
Guess I have a wide, varied and free future ahead.
In your tiny wormhole. You must have meant to say narrow, limited and free. Depends on the context.
If you're talking Anoikis then I live in a Class Five.
There's plenty of room, and our static chain gives us all the pasture and freedom to move that we desire.
=ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ...
"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4491
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Posted - 2015.02.08 18:46:38 -
[19] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Good for you, Mr Nauplius! Didn't see that coming. The Boss would be turning in her cryotube. About time you got outta your shell a little. Good luck, sir! Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Candi LeMew wrote:Kinda depressing to read responses to Mr Onzo.
Makes me glad I live in Anoikis, am not religious and don't care a moment about any politics.
Guess I have a wide, varied and free future ahead.
In your tiny wormhole. You must have meant to say narrow, limited and free. Depends on the context. If you're talking Anoikis then I live in a Class Five. There's plenty of room, and our static chain gives us all the pasture and freedom to move that we desire.
I never questioned that you had physical space or a lack of laws. My point was that when your 'society' is a handfull of pilots and their crews, you don't exactly have a wide variety of potential marriage partners, because you have no real society or culture to speak of - unless you've borrowed one from Empire space.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Dani Dusette
Isogen 5
5198
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Posted - 2015.02.08 18:52:35 -
[20] - Quote
Stop picking on The Banana.
She's single too, I think Candi was talking about my sister, not herself.
You are right though, the nature of Anoikis does limit options when it comes to the topic at hand. At least from my observations. Lonely pilots are common, lonely wormholers even more-so, even when some corporations and alliances in Anoikis rival Empire ones in their size.
And "borrowed" ... goodness me, sir. I could tell you a story...
Mizhir: "Dani Dusette, Best Dusette"
Samoth Egnoled: "Make sure you turn yourself often and bathe in your own juices."
ISD Ezwal: "Might I inform you that I am as real as it gets?"
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Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
131
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Posted - 2015.02.08 19:15:29 -
[21] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Speaking as a Caldari and an infidel, whether or not you enjoy the terms, Samira is correct in using them. Moreover in neither of the cultures that your parents came from is marriage considered to be simply a matter involving only the two people involved. I can't say what the requirements are in Amarr, but my own marriage required a genetic investigation by the Hall of Records and permission from my Corporation.
Personally, and this is just my opinion, I think your father did the thing right. He found the woman that he felt he was meant to be with and he did whatever it took to be with her for the rest of his life - even if what it took was surrendering his faith and his culture. Civire are practical enough to put family before faith, a throwback to times when we had to put family before everything if we wanted that family to survive the winter.
I find his solution to be eminently Caldari - make the call and live with the consequences.
I appreciate your more tactful approach to the subject of my father. Yes, my parents faced difficulties in their choice to marry, but in the end they succeeded. I jsut feel no State or governing body should have control over affairs of this matter. I'm not saying people should jump in to marriage, but I am saying people who love each other that much, and in the case of my father willing to possibly sacrifice his own identity and heritage for his chosen family, should be free to do as they wont. That includes marrying.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1207
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Posted - 2015.02.08 19:26:31 -
[22] - Quote
If you feel I was not being tactful, I apologize. I was not intending for the word to be an insult to you father, just a term to distinguish regular faithless from heretics, as foreigners frequently confuse the two. I apologize if you took offense to it, it was intended for clarification, not insult. |
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
33
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Posted - 2015.02.08 19:27:23 -
[23] - Quote
I don't know, I would be afraid to marry a heretic.
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Albizu Zateki
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.02.08 19:28:22 -
[24] - Quote
Of course the Gutter Press is the leading authority in all things Amarr and Sani Sabik.
They are right in there there are some bishops out there that would condem the use of the wheel if they could, but the Empire isn't totally run by that sort.
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Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
131
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Posted - 2015.02.08 20:03:12 -
[25] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:If you feel I was not being tactful, I apologize. I was not intending for the word to be an insult to you father, just a term to distinguish regular faithless from heretics, as foreigners frequently confuse the two. I apologize if you took offense to it, it was intended for clarification, not insult.
In that case I accept your apology Ms Kernher. I know you're a good capsuleer and adherant of the Faith, and hope not to have a falling out over a matter of doctrine.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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ValentinaDLM
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
579
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Posted - 2015.02.08 21:09:24 -
[26] - Quote
Luna Hanaya wrote:I don't know, I would be afraid to marry a heretic.
Love, can be much stronger than fear, it also seems much less controllable.
It all makes me wonder if I am a heretic, infidel, or upstanding privateer doing the will of the Empress.. |
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1882
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Posted - 2015.02.09 07:47:31 -
[27] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:I, Nauplius, Prophet of God and leader of the sect of Naupliusism, do hereby seek a wife and concubines for the purpose of insuring the perpetuation of the Faith by means of producing faithful progeny...
Good luck with that Naups. Please let us all know the place, time and date of the nuptials when you find that "special" lady, ok?
I'm quite proud to be seen as a heathen or infidel in the jaundiced eyes of imperials. Better to laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, rule in hell than serve in heaven and all that.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6201
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Posted - 2015.02.09 08:02:55 -
[28] - Quote
You think marrying heretics is bad, you should see what they allow in the Federation.
Marrying a heretic is amateur hour.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
487
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Posted - 2015.02.09 10:23:15 -
[29] - Quote
While we use the word "marriage" to describe all personal unions, it's important to keep in mind that the reality is that it is applied to wide range of customs that evolved independently of eachother in completely different cultural environments. It seems rather close minded to declare that certain sorts are not legitimate simply based on the fact that they don't conform to the traditional notions of one culture in paticular.
As a cosmopolitan society, we have a right to pick our poisons. People who reject this notion are going to find themselves increasingly at the mercy of the growing international metaculture that will probably have eaten all the others in a thousand years from now. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1210
|
Posted - 2015.02.09 10:35:40 -
[30] - Quote
The unions being discussed in the original post, and throughout this thread, has been Amarrian ones, Ms. Ikiryo. And in Amarr, no you can't just "pick your poison". Your marriage won't be regarded as valid under the eyes of the law, if you could even find a cleric willing to perform the rites, if it doesn't adhere to certain traditional norms: such as the couple being members of the faith and in good standing with the law and, generally, their families.
So, in Amarr, certain unions are, in fact, not legitimate. If foreigners don't care for our culture, fine, but you cannot say we do not have the right to determine what is and is not legitimate in regards to unions within our own borders.
ValentinaDLM wrote:It all makes me wonder if I am a heretic, infidel, or upstanding privateer doing the will of the Empress..
The correct term for you would be apostate. |
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