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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
539
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Posted - 2015.02.09 14:04:53 -
[1] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:Does it matter? I mean really? No, it doesn't. But that doesn't stop social justice warriors from crying bloody murder about it. I'm seriously surprised the fact that there are so few female gamers in EVE hasn't attracted more attention from that crowd. It's probably because Ms. Sarkeesian doesn't know about it.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
539
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Posted - 2015.02.09 14:14:10 -
[2] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Kestral Anneto wrote:Does it matter? I mean really? No, it doesn't. But that doesn't stop social justice warriors from crying bloody murder about it. I'm seriously surprised the fact that there are so few female gamers in EVE hasn't attracted more attention from that crowd. It's probably because Ms. Sarkeesian doesn't know about it. Well, Sarkeesian has done more damage than good to gaming as a whole. Social Justice Warrior's can carry on crying. Though this is a good hypothetcial, what would CCP do if the SJW started bitching? Would they appease them? I was going to ask if you really thought Icelanders would give a **** about that... but I'm not so sure given that incident a few years back where CCP made a questionable hiring decision and got a lot of backlash over it. Of course, that was because this specific member of the community was known for leveraging her femininity and attractiveness for popularity and gifts from male players.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
539
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Posted - 2015.02.09 14:20:08 -
[3] - Quote
Rockstede wrote:baltec1 wrote:Elenahina wrote:Part of it may the fact that a girl in teamspeak is generally enough to reduce corps of grown men to teenagers in a **** measuring contest. I imagine it's amusing at first, but I expect the novelty wears off after a while.
We stamped out that bullshit a few years ago. Lol BS It might happen OCCASIONALLY but I hear Mirana and other women speak up on comms pretty regularly and nobody behaves any differently about it. I think the one time that some guy did make a big deal out of it he was drunk at the time, and everything else he was saying was driving people into the No Chatter channel.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
539
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Posted - 2015.02.09 15:23:55 -
[4] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:That's a fact I don't think CCP realizes. I think they see themselves as boys (who're losing their greying hair now) amongst boys. So, female input on some EVE issues are taken...wrong. Even the contempt for "carebears" teeters on the edge of disrespecting, and claiming a rather large demographic isn't welcome here. We of course, aren't going to take that crap from a bunch of unwashed testosterone overloaded males who do this 'cause they can't impress a female well enough to get a date. *bobs and weaves* The pink sock, locket wearing dingbat female is a thing of the past. Meow. EVE is what it is. If you want to change the game itself with the aim of making it more attractive to women, then no, your input is not welcome. There's no inherent reason that game should be changed to cater to you. If women aren't playing EVE because EVE doesn't contain elements that women want it to have, I don't see a problem with that. There are, as you yourself have pointed out, plenty of other games that women can and do enjoy playing.
Serene Repose wrote:My friends who game love to fight. I think seeing them play some of these games would be a real eye-opener to a lot of guys. They can be viscious to an extreme, but aggression? Puleeze. That is not a male domain. Those who I know who don't like this game object to the violence for no particular reason. They prefer fights that lead to a concrete result of some sort, not just fighting to be fighting which is seen (by them...and me) as a male, testosterone-driven spazmo fit. We see the guys behave this way IRL in other ways, and it's part and parcel of the same thing. That is a significant gender difference. I'll caveat - you can never say one size fits all. "Men like EVE and its tacit approval of random violence because they're senselessly aggressive spazzes." What fantastic, reasoned, sensible insight you have.
Serene Repose wrote:Ladies I know prefer to build and nurture things, and see them grow. If they're going to lay something low, it's in the interests of maintaining or preserving threats to something they're growing. EVE is seen as being dominated by people who just like to get enough of what they need to destroy other people's stuff. It's a sandbox. These people just run around kicking sand in people's faces, while crowing, "It isn't against the rules, carebear!" Nobody with any sense pays for such an experience. Tens of thousands of people are currently paying for that experience. Are they all senseless? It almost seems like you don't understand this game that you're playing.
Serene Repose wrote:Get real. Only a fool can't answer your question - Why don't more women play EVE? 'Cause women aren't stupid. Women don't play EVE because women aren't stupid? So men play EVE because they are? That's sexist. I'm not sure what your goal is but you won't ever achieve it with that kind of myopic bigotry.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
539
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Posted - 2015.02.09 15:25:06 -
[5] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Maybe guys are better off leaving this one alone. Seriously. All you can do is state your misguided prejudices as gospel truth. How you look when you're done? Really. You don't want that. Don't you think it's a bit ironic to generalise all men as prejudiced? This thread is really fun when you play "spot the feminist".
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
540
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Posted - 2015.02.09 15:35:29 -
[6] - Quote
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Maybe guys are better off leaving this one alone. Seriously. All you can do is state your misguided prejudices as gospel truth. How you look when you're done? Really. You don't want that. Don't you think it's a bit ironic to generalise all men as prejudiced? This thread is really fun when you play "spot the feminist". To be honest, the posts by Celestia and Legetus were quite pointless stereotyping and unlikely to reflect any real reasons why women are so underrepresented in EVE. Women do not seem to find EVE attractive even in the cultures were gender roles about violent and competitive masculinity and nurturing femininity are not as strongly taught to children as they are in Anglo-American and Mediterranean cultures, so those are insufficient to explain the lack of female players. Because competitive masculinity and nurturing femininity are the result of human sexual dimorphism. Gender did not come from society. Society came from gender.
I'm not saying that a given woman has to be nurturing and feminine and a given man has to be competitive and masculine. I'm saying that these things are true in aggregate, statistically speaking, because of our biology.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
540
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Posted - 2015.02.09 15:40:14 -
[7] - Quote
I'm not at all denying that there are some people in EVE that can be somewhat hostile towards female gamers, but I don't think that it's able to explain why there aren't that many women playing it. For one, they face the same kind of **** in other games where they're much more represented (e.g. WoW, LoL, even CoD probably has more female gamers). And, for another, this community is generally a lot better about such things than the communities surrounding those other games.
Ria Nieyli wrote:Being masculine does not preclude you from being nurturing or vice versa. I'm not saying that it does.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
540
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Posted - 2015.02.09 16:03:44 -
[8] - Quote
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:Celestia Via wrote:I believe CCP artists have taken great pain in achieving the opposite This is the part where I disagree. EVE is a very visually bland game, especially in the core game play of purple boxes, red boxes and red crosses that we spend most of our time interacting with. Walking in stations and modernized ship designs might help some, maybe. So would zooming in.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
541
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Posted - 2015.02.09 16:37:29 -
[9] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: All the combat gets your testosterone levels up, so you all argue, swear and joust with your e-peens and they have no interest in that. Okay. Fantastic. They don't have to have an interest in that. It's great that they stay away if they can't handle it, rather than come into the group and start making demands about people's behavior.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
542
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Posted - 2015.02.09 17:48:22 -
[10] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:To elabroate on what I said a minute ago, most women I know don't want to play Eve because it's become a self-reinforcing bubble of stupid bravado and masculine crudeness. In most MMOs, a lot of immature habits - And argue that it's your right to do it as much as you want, because it ultimately is, but spouting constant sexual threats and sexually rooted slurs is immature in the eyes of society, like it or not - Have been slowly driven away because the population of women was big enough that people got enough negative feedback that they gave up. Sexually rude comments and actions towards female players is not unique to EVE, and it's not even that bad. Other games have it much worse, and ironically those games have much higher percentages of female players, so that can't be the reason.
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:But Eve has been so completely male dominated, and for so long, that instead a that a lot of men playing it have established it as a safe space for that sort of thing in their minds, and so will naturally get defensive when anyone tries to intrude on it. Look at how many people are shouting "If you don't like it, get out!" over and over. The people sick of it have left already, and the ones left don't want to change. It's a classic boys club. Why should it change? Not every group or game is supposed to be inclusive to everyone. The very concept of this game is predicated upon ruthless competition within a rather social Darwinist model of player interaction. Every indication seems to be that this would have to change in order for the game to cater more towards women, and it shouldn't. If this is not what they want, they're free to choose not to play it.
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Eve (in most cases) is the only MMO left where I get heckled instantly for describing myself as a feminist. Maybe it's because EVE players are educated enough to know what a toxic movement feminism really is.
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:It is the only MMO left where people make jokes or crappy comments when I speak in a voice chat server for the first time. It is the only MMO left where people throw out slurs like crazy and feel confident enough to tell me to shove it when I point out that they're acting like snickering boys at the back of a playground. It's almost as if people have a group dynamic where they're comfortable letting loose around each other and don't enjoy it when outsiders tell them to change their behavior. Regardless I seriously, seriously doubt that either of these two points are true. If you are in a group that does that and you're not comfortable with it, leave. Find another group that doesn't. They exist, I promise.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
545
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:10:28 -
[11] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Eve (in most cases) is the only MMO left where I get heckled instantly for describing myself as a feminist. Maybe it's because EVE players are educated enough to know what a toxic movement feminism really is. If you knew anything about feminism, you'd know it's a single generalization for a ton of much smaller diverse movements of varying toxicity, many of which often even work against eachother. The fact that you're willing to dismiss the entire thing offhand suggests you have a lot of personal bias and resentment. I know quite a bit about feminism. I was a feminist for several years. But when followers of the movement almost universally harass a rocket scientist to tears for wearing a tacky Hawaiian shirt on television, it tends to open your eyes. That was the one event which really led me to start questioning and digging deeper. And the more I looked, the less I liked what I saw.
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Also, you basically just agreed with me for your whole post, just with an attitude of more or less "yeah, but so what?", except for the first part.
You're exactly right. There are aspects of the game and its culture that turn women away. Where we differ is that you think this is a problem, and I do not. Now I don't condone people being sexist - that is a problem and I don't deny that there is some of that. What I deny is that this is what's responsible for women being only 5% of EVE players. It isn't. There's just no evidence to suggest that, when other online gaming communities with the exact same issues see much greater numbers of female players.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
545
|
Posted - 2015.02.09 18:13:46 -
[12] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:I don't understand why so many Eve players seem to think expecting people to act generally decent and be willing to accommodate a little bit to the people they're playing with a little to not annoy or offend them is some crazy demanding egotistical outlandish thing. That's how most of the world works. No it isn't. The world works because we all make the base assumption that people will not change their behavior just because you tell them to. It's a waste of time. You're preaching to the choir if you're telling people that sexist comments are bad. Everyone who agrees with you is already behaving as you want them to, and everyone who doesn't is not going to change for you. I seriously don't know what you expect to happen.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
547
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:27:43 -
[13] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Primary this Rifter wrote,
...Maybe it's because EVE players are educated enough to know what a toxic movement feminism really is...
Lordy, dear Rifter person , the right to free speech does not mean that you have to use it. That's how you lose it.
Celestia Via wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nope, it happened.The last guy that said "hur dur a w0man m8k me a sammich" in fleet with me got a swift podding. and to think i believed all the rumors that proclaimed how sexist, unwashed, smelly and decrepid the Goons are. Good for you if you arent joking, its exactly this type of behaviour i would like to see promoted. +1 He's not joking. And it's a good thing, of course. But notice how GSF did it without losing its overall cultural identity. A lot of what you people are suggesting is the reason EVE isn't popular with women is the same **** that we're known for, and yet we've got quite a few female players.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
548
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:44:20 -
[14] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Maybe guys are better off leaving this one alone. Seriously. All you can do is state your misguided prejudices as gospel truth. How you look when you're done? Really. You don't want that. Don't you think it's a bit ironic to generalise all men as prejudiced? This thread is really fun when you play "spot the feminist". I prefer to play spot the idiot. The fun part is when they don't realize they've been spotted. Spotted a feminist!
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
549
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Posted - 2015.02.09 19:06:09 -
[15] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:look at my pretty, wide monolith. look. Can't. It was deliberately buried.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
551
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Posted - 2015.02.09 19:24:32 -
[16] - Quote
WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
555
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Posted - 2015.02.09 20:09:59 -
[17] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:This thread serves to highlight exactly why so few women play EvE.
The minute any of us open our mouths to comment on social interraction and our experiences as women in game, we get talked over by 40 guys who have girl avatars with massive ****. Then the topic descents into rambling about terrible, strident feminists and social justice warriors and other horrendous verbal loops until we wander off in disgust. Nobody here is talking over anyone else. Not that we could...
Marsha Mallow wrote:This is pretty much spot on. I'm not advocating any gameplay changes to encourage more women to join; I'd be embarassed to invite female gamers to play in this environment given the barage of abuse they'll be subjected to. Still haven't seen evidence that this is any worse in EVE than it is in other online games where women are more prevalent. I'm not saying that such behavior isn't a problem. I'm saying that it doesn't actually explain why women aren't playing EVE more than they are.
Marsha Mallow wrote:My RL friends are bunny boilers who'll hunt you down IRL and chop your man parts off if you mouth off at them - really I'm doing the rest of you a favour here. If anything, you should be grateful there are so few women here considering what the consequences might be. Ah yes, the very model of modern feminism.
Marsha Mallow wrote:Also a good point. To answer Malcy's question (who - despite being a spacefriend - calls me a 'silly girl' and a 'daft bint' occasionally, and is high on my 'kick in the nuts if you get the chance' list) the feedback I've had from Guilds in SWTOR and WoW (from both men and women) suggests that other themepark MMO players consider EvE players scum. The 4chan scabs of the internet, the lowest of the low etc, nasty griefing doxers... honestly, it makes you cringe. Detective Teg touched on this to a degree, and whilst I don't agree with his conclusions as to how to proceed, it is a bit worrying to step into other games and hear people talking about my game with such obvious contempt. It's also really difficult to argue against with so much bad press floating about - some of it from former players talking about their experiences on broader MMO sites. They consider EVE players scum because of behaviors, like scamming and suicide ganking, which are core to EVE's dark, dystopian ruthlessness. To suggest that WoW players don't tell women to go back to the kitchen or that LoL players are a loving, sensitive community is laughable.
Marsha Mallow wrote:This was my final thought on why women in game struggle. It is fair to say we enjoy chatting with each other. The support networks we have aren't strong enough. I've been in WGOE and Hellcats public in the past and tbh I left in disgust because there were blokes in there slobbering and female players vamping it up and RPing cybersluts, and I couldn't be arsed with it. As much as feminists complain about **** shaming, they sure do a lot of it themselves...
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
555
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Posted - 2015.02.09 20:11:49 -
[18] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:I've set up internal channels for women then really struggled keeping it cool when they start reposting comments and sending chatlogs and mails where they are being systematically bullied just for being women. I don't have an answer to this I do. F12 -> File Support Ticket
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
557
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Posted - 2015.02.09 20:25:31 -
[19] - Quote
I demand that people start putting "trigger warning: corpses" before they pod people.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
558
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Posted - 2015.02.09 20:33:13 -
[20] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:You are totally right as long as the owner agrees with your view. You just need to pray for CCP to never care too much about the subs ratios. Unless I'm mistaken EVE subscriptions cost the same for women as they do men. I don't think we need to worry.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
560
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Posted - 2015.02.09 20:55:13 -
[21] - Quote
Kenneth Endashi wrote:BTW, this is not a conversation about how to change Eve. We are just freely exchanging ideas here, people. Not really. You're just complaining that there aren't many women at EVE and grasping at straws as to why this might be. Nobody is offering any practical solutions to what they perceive to be the problem. But that's not surprising considering who this is coming from.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
562
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Posted - 2015.02.09 21:24:18 -
[22] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:+1 for the "who gives a damn" group.
I've been to a couple of informal EVE player meet ups in Texas and each time I was the only black person there (don't let the white girl avatar fool you, it was like being a raisin in a bowl of cornflakes!!). Of all the things to be concerned about in this short life, why more 'people like me' don't play EVE or attend meet ups is so far down the list Satan could use that part of the list as toilet paper.
I know a good few female players, some good some bad, none of them are fundamentally different that any other player. I give a damb because I want more people playing EvE. If there are 10,000 black people who would be playing EvE but aren't for some reason that could sensibly be addressed, then that's 10k people who aren't logging in and providing me content. Likewise women. Okay. So what can be sensibly addressed? Sensible solutions should be practical, fair, and realistic, and must preserve the fundamental principles of EVE gameplay and player interactions.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
563
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Posted - 2015.02.10 02:18:49 -
[23] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Good point. Go make a sandwich for me whilst I consider it, then I'll tell you what to think.
Then kick you from Corp because youre uncomfortable with my inept flirting, you adorable love muffin. You didn't even have to self identify as a feminist, Malcanis. It's pretty damn obvious. You have such a conviction in the righteousness of your cause that you feel comfortable dismissing any argument that doesn't conform to your ideology.
Try again, and this time, address the question that I asked you.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
563
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Posted - 2015.02.10 02:24:05 -
[24] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Also, get out Jenn. Being a black man from Texas doesn't entitle you to bury this topic in 20k words of you rambling on about how you dunked a fellow person of colour for protesting about being called a ****** in comms. I forwarded your comments to 3 first generation west indies ladies in their sixties - and they're packing their bags to come to Texas with their zimmers to beat you up, lad. You know, it's rather telling that every single threat of violence in this thread towards people expressing their opinion has been from you.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
563
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Posted - 2015.02.10 02:52:43 -
[25] - Quote
I don't want them to any more than I want anyone else to. This game is not and was never intended to appeal to the general gaming audience. If that means that less women want to play it than men, so be it. That does not in itself indicate that there's something wrong with the game.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
563
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Posted - 2015.02.10 03:16:04 -
[26] - Quote
Kenneth Endashi wrote:An ISD came through removing posts. http://eve-search.com/thread/403507-1 Knock yourself out.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
566
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Posted - 2015.02.10 03:43:10 -
[27] - Quote
Celestia Via wrote:listen, you can both argue that the phrase "why do women have to be involved in everything men do" and "go do something else" does not, in your minds mean that women are not wanted. It's not women that aren't wanted. It's shrill harpies who come into a community and demand that it changes to be more inclusive of them that aren't wanted. It would be like a man going to a women's gym and demanding that they stock heavier dumbbells so that he could weight train.
Celestia Via wrote:And that by your logic, women not being wanted has somehow nothing to do with women actually being here, but all you do is argue. You've still yet to demonstrate that women are unwanted.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
566
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Posted - 2015.02.10 03:46:47 -
[28] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Celestia Via wrote:listen, you can both argue that the phrase "why do women have to be involved in everything men do" and "go do something else" does not, in your minds mean that women are not wanted. It's not women that aren't wanted. It's shrill harpies who come into a community and demand that it changes to be more inclusive of them. that aren't wanted. Which, by the way, can include men as well. It does. Just look at the number of male feminists.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
566
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 04:05:49 -
[29] - Quote
Celestia Via wrote:Since no woman actually came in here, or in eve demanding anything, why is your interpretation more accurate than mine? Oh, okay, so I guess nothing needs to change, then. Glad we had this conversation.
Celestia Via wrote:"Go do something else" is pretty self explanatory to me. i dont need to demonstrate anything that doesnt demonstrate itself really.
"If you don't like it, don't do it." is not the same as "you're not wanted here." I don't know how to make this any clearer.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
567
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 04:21:05 -
[30] - Quote
Celestia Via wrote:I said that women not being wanted in eve does play a role in women being so few in eve. But nobody's given any evidence that there's a widespread sentiment that women are not wanted in EVE. So far there have only been examples of harassment and rude behavior which is common to other online games, and suggesting that this is the cause of our community's divide is still a post hoc argument.
Rush fans are overwhelmingly male. Does that mean that the band or its fans discriminate against women? Not at all. Women, generally speaking, simply don't like them. There's nothing wrong with that.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
568
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Posted - 2015.02.10 04:31:25 -
[31] - Quote
Celestia Via wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Celestia Via wrote:I said that women not being wanted in eve does play a role in women being so few in eve. But nobody's given any evidence that there's a widespread sentiment that women are not wanted in EVE. So far there have only been examples of harassment and rude behavior which is common to other online games, and suggesting that this is the cause of our community's divide is still a post hoc argument. Rush fans are overwhelmingly male. Does that mean that the band or its fans discriminate against women? Not at all. Women, generally speaking, simply don't like them. There's nothing wrong with that. This is getting exhausting, cmon. I never spoke of anything widerspread or any majority. I said clearly that "some" people think so, and that i was surprised at that even. Please dont fall into the trip of disagreeing just for the sake of it as well... It would have to be widespread to explain why only 5% of women play EVE considering, as I've said more times than I really care to in this thread, women in other online games have it much worse and yet they brush it off and play those games regardless.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
568
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 04:35:34 -
[32] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Actually it did. It's a topic I was and am concerned about, but I found it hard to come up with any ideas better than 'don't be sexist'. At least you admit it.
Me? I came up with this earlier: overhaul EVE voice, and ban third party voice chat. Interactions over voice chat become the purview of CCP and subject to the TOS and EULA.
Obviously this is heavy-handed and ultimately unnecessary, but it's still infinitely many times more solutions than you've suggested. Of course, being that you're self-identified with a movement that likes to cry "don't teach women self-defense, just teach men not to ****!" this is hardly surprising.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
568
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Posted - 2015.02.10 04:41:59 -
[33] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:TL;DR The EVE community is unwelcoming as demonstrated in this thread. Hopefully it answers the question. Yes, this thread has been an excellent demonstration of the problem.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
569
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 05:40:59 -
[34] - Quote
Oh no someone disagreed with me on the internet, I'd better start playing the victim.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
571
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Posted - 2015.02.10 07:59:15 -
[35] - Quote
Corey Lean wrote:Hi boys Hi.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
577
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Posted - 2015.02.11 00:10:35 -
[36] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:It's not women that aren't wanted. It's shrill harpies who come into a community and demand that it changes to be more inclusive of them that aren't wanted. Actually someone remarked in comms once "You are not like other girl gamers I've come across who all seem to be wierdos, you're like a guy." I think he meant it as a compliment and I couldn't really reply other than a strangled howl. You seem to be saying girls should pretend not to be girls in EvE in order to be accepted - which is faintly hilarious given the size of your chest. I'm not suggesting that at all. I know women who play EVE and I have no problem with them, because they don't make everything about them. When people join a group and start spouting identity politics, that's a problem.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
577
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Posted - 2015.02.11 00:14:06 -
[37] - Quote
Here's the thing you don't people don't seem to understand. If you don't like how a group is, leave. Find another one. Repeat. Men have to do it too. I did. And I'd argue that you should start speaking on comms sooner rather than later, so you can judge people's reactions before you get too invested in staying.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
577
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Posted - 2015.02.11 00:21:12 -
[38] - Quote
"You made an attractive female character, and that's ironic and hilarious for some reason."
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
578
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Posted - 2015.02.11 00:55:11 -
[39] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Yes, I too have [insert minority] friends here, and I'm always nice to them. Until they start answering back, saying what they want and offending me with their complete disregard for my insecurities. Way to completely twist around what I said. My point was that you can't join a group and demand they change for you. One, it doesn't work. Two, it calls even more attention to yourself. And three, it's arrogant to presume that you can demand that a standing group change for your benefit, as a newcomer.
Marsha Mallow wrote:No, I'd rather stay and mock you. Maybe shoot your ships, nick your stuff. Call you names. That works too.
Marsha Mallow wrote:It's not pleasant to see other people being hassled by imbeciles, and I'm a bit reluctant to tell them to leave given I'd prefer they didn't. If that makes me a shrill, strident, whingy harpy. GOOD. At least I have a sense of humour. And actual funbags. No, what makes you a shrill, whingy harpy is demanding that other people change their behavior instead of finding people who are ultimately going to be a better fit for you anyway.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
578
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Posted - 2015.02.11 01:00:44 -
[40] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I sense I'll be using it a lot. Not without bastardizing the original meaning, as is your M.O.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
578
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Posted - 2015.02.11 01:08:25 -
[41] - Quote
Ah yes, now she's claiming she was just trolling all this time. Chess with a pigeon.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
578
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Posted - 2015.02.11 02:06:54 -
[42] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:"You made an attractive female character, and that's ironic and hilarious for some reason." O.O That was in response to this:
Marsha Mallow wrote:You seem to be saying girls should pretend not to be girls in EvE in order to be accepted - which is faintly hilarious given the size of your chest.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
579
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Posted - 2015.02.11 07:22:00 -
[43] - Quote
Isn't it great how any argument between feminists and non-feminists always seems to devolve into the feminists insulting their opposition's appearance, lifestyle, and supposed lack of promiscuity?
That says pretty much everything you need to know about them.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
581
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Posted - 2015.02.11 09:53:40 -
[44] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Isn't it great how any argument between feminists and non-feminists always seems to devolve into the feminists insulting their opposition's appearance, lifestyle, and supposed lack of promiscuity?
That says pretty much everything you need to know about them. I hope for your sake that you are trolling, and indeed for the sake of any women you may get to know when you are old enough to go out and meet women you are not related to by blood. Hi, here's your daily reminder that you can be for equal rights without being a feminist. There are a lot of reasonable feminists, sure. But there are also an awful lot of extremists, and those are the ones whose voices get heard. It's the reason we have male college students getting expelled over unsubstantiated **** accusations, for one.
Most arguments with feminists, both online and offline, generally tend to be dominated by their use of emotional arguments, misleading statistics, and logical fallacies. These people don't even believe that sexism towards men can even exist, and they tell men to check their male privilege while completely ignoring the many privileges women have that men don't.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
581
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Posted - 2015.02.11 10:03:23 -
[45] - Quote
You're right, I shouldn't have used the world "always". "Often" would have been appropriate, though.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
583
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Posted - 2015.02.11 11:46:07 -
[46] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:You literally don't know anything about feminism, atleast not in any academic sense non-tumblr sense, despite claiming you're some sort of jaded expert. Yes, I hear that a lot. However if we're going to discuss the term, let's not restrict it to ivory tower academics who accomplish nothing but a fantastic circle-jerk.
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Sexism against men can't exist, because "sexism" is a term for a greater social phenomenon that is pervasive through society in almost every culture in the world - That is, men holding the majority of power in social, political, and economic terms. So in other words, this isn't about equality of opportunity and rights, this is about a competition for power. I see.
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:While there are privileges women have that men do not (which itself is a problem, albeit a less dangerous one, since not many men are getting sexually assaulted or being paid less) most of those privileges are associated with the assumption of their inherent vulnerability and/or incompetence in comparison to men, rather then the sex being assumed to have many inherent virtues. There are exceptions, of course, but not many. There are almost as many men who are sexually assaulted and raped as there are women, and they're roughly as likely to be victims of domestic violence. They're far less likely to be taken seriously, however. There aren't women being paid less for the same work, at least not in Western countries. The "Wage Gap" argument is a classic example of the misleading statistics I was referring to above: yes, women on average make 78 cents for every $1 men make, but it's not because men make more than women at the same jobs. They simply don't. It's because women are more likely to go into lower-paying professions, work fewer hours, and not advance as far.
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Men can certainly be subject to prejudice and bias on an individual level as a result of their gender, or suffer indirectly as a result of sexism, which are both bad things and they shouldn't be treated that way. But sexist as a lebel can't be applied to women because the term was coined to describe the institutionalized oppression that women face in a subtle, but omnipresent fashion specifically. To do so would diminish what it describes. It's certainly not because being crappy to men because they are men is cool and justified in the eyes of the rational feminist community, as you're making it out to be. No, sexism means prejudice or discrimination based on sex. This is another issue I have with feminism: they tend to define words however they want to to fit their own agenda.
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:You're acting as if feminism is some crusade against men. It's not - It's a social movement against the concept of the Patriarchy, the greater social impetus that thrusts unfair expectations towards both genders and hurts people on both sides of the fence. However, it is necessary to acknowledge that the "hurt", while far from completely one sided, is very much skewed in one direction. The Patriarchy doesn't exist. You're not demonized as a potential rapist on the basis of your gender. I am. You're not considered expendable and potentially forced into war on the basis of your gender. I am. When charged with a crime, I am much more likely to be convicted than you are, on the basis of my gender. When convicted with a crime, I'm likely to get a much heavier sentence than you are, on the basis of my gender. There are many more examples...
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
584
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Posted - 2015.02.11 11:50:12 -
[47] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Men, for example, (in most cases) do not experience and cannot relate to the fear of sexual assault, domestic violence, or pay grade bias. I wonder how much of that fear is due to feminists telling them absurd bullshit like "one in five college women will be raped" and "men make 22 cents more than women for the same work".
If you get told enough that you're being oppressed, you're going to start believing it whether it's actually true or not.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
584
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Posted - 2015.02.11 12:00:43 -
[48] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:And just when I thought this thread couldn't get worse, I was proven wrong. Bravo! If you're going to sock puppet, at least do it with an out of alliance alt... Good Lord, is this amateur hour? Their corp webpage is a tumblr blog. This explains everything.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
584
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Posted - 2015.02.11 12:10:02 -
[49] - Quote
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:Feminism is pretty clearly not science. It certainly does not attempt to describe reality against falsifiable hypothesis based on observation. Indeed, rather than subject it's theories to scientific scrutiny it attempts to subject science to feminist scrutiny. Hmmm.. not at all unlike the protestations of Creationists. I should just paste this every time someone uses the words "feminist theory".
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