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Damzk Raholan
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.02.09 15:35:57 -
[1] - Quote
Hi there.
Fairly new market trader here. Gave my alt 3bil and tried to feed it into the jita 0.01 market. Worked out alright for my first month - I averaged 70mil a day in profits with babysitting since I work from home. Now... I'm stuck. I've completely pulled out and I'm twiddling my thumbs trying to figure out how to put my new found wealth back into the market the same way I did it before.
Is it simply a matter of having more buy orders ? The stock being sold doesn't change just because I can buy more per day, so I don't imagine just doubling my buy amount is the solution. The problem with adding more orders means babysitting becomes more tedious than it already is.
I'm not here to ask what items you all trade. I'm merely asking how you handle scaling.
Thank you for your time. Apologies for any typos I'm on my phone.
PS I tend to deal in mid volume mid margin items, or high volume low margin items. I've considered switching but I feel that doesn't benefit my babysitting. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
286
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Posted - 2015.02.09 16:49:37 -
[2] - Quote
Diversify in different market venues, I assume your 3 bil was invested in pruducts with cycles of a few days / weeks. Try to find products that have cycles of several weeks or months, that way you can up your invested capital and have a decent return over time. Margins will be lower in the short-term, but long term you will build a vast and reliable portfolio. |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
197
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Posted - 2015.02.09 18:17:51 -
[3] - Quote
Transition into low volume, high margin, little babysitting. I babysat my orders for months while my capital grew, but at a certain point I just had too much capital for babysitting. Diversify your assets. T2 and large ships are great, but not in jita. I think of jita as the end game for trading, where long term market swing, and mass manipulation are better rewarded than the tiresome 0.01 game. Look at the graph data and start riding the waves instead of the order update wait timer.
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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Damzk Raholan
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.02.09 23:40:40 -
[4] - Quote
I was buying and dumping the same day, in high volume items. When you say market venues, do you mean other hubs? Is region trading nearly as profitable? I suppose you could consider region trading as low volume high margins, right? I just don't really hear anyone talking about region trading anymore. Either buying in Jita and selling elsewhere, or buying in the fringes and selling in Jita. Is that something people still do?
I'll have to find some items that work on a low volume basis. Hmm. I really only do commodities and some ships. |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
197
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Posted - 2015.02.09 23:52:03 -
[5] - Quote
Damzk Raholan wrote:I was buying and dumping the same day, in high volume items. When you say market venues, do you mean other hubs? Is region trading nearly as profitable? I suppose you could consider region trading as low volume high margins, right? I just don't really hear anyone talking about region trading anymore. Either buying in Jita and selling elsewhere, or buying in the fringes and selling in Jita. Is that something people still do?
I'll have to find some items that work on a low volume basis. Hmm. I really only do commodities and some ships. Where do you think those giant lines of freighters in jita are going?
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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Damzk Raholan
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.02.10 00:05:45 -
[6] - Quote
Koniforous wrote: Where do you think those giant lines of freighters in jita are going?
To be completely honest? Other hubs. I may have mistakenly used the term "region trading" when I meant buying in the fringes and selling in jita or vice versa. Not going between hubs. I'm not sure of those two are labelled region trading or are called something different. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4579
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Posted - 2015.02.10 00:12:49 -
[7] - Quote
Koniforous wrote: Where do you think those giant lines of freighters in jita are going?
I thought they were making donations to my alliance. Someone's got to fund all the Brutixes we use.
Inter-regional arbitrage trading is a very different beast to station trading. You need to know the regions you are trading between - who lives there, what their main revenue generating activities are, what they consume, and *why*. That will tell you whether a short term price difference is likely to remain or not.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Damzk Raholan
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.02.10 02:16:38 -
[8] - Quote
So what I've gathered from this thread is that to scale up your station trading operations, you don't actually increase your station trading volumes. You increase your market reach.
Would you say this is correct? Any other input? |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
198
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Posted - 2015.02.10 02:29:11 -
[9] - Quote
Damzk Raholan wrote:So what I've gathered from this thread is that to scale up your station trading operations, you don't actually increase your station trading volumes. You increase your market reach.
Would you say this is correct? Any other input? If you really want to stick with station trading, i think its a better idea to start in a station other than jita.
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4584
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Posted - 2015.02.10 03:25:27 -
[10] - Quote
Damzk Raholan wrote:So what I've gathered from this thread is that to scale up your station trading operations, you don't actually increase your station trading volumes. You increase your market reach.
Would you say this is correct? Any other input?
You change what items you trade.
If you have 100m in capital, high volume tech 2 modules under 1m/unit are the best thing to trade.
If you have 500m, you might add in tech 2 modules up to 5m, carefully chosen tech 1 ships (mostly mining barges), and meta 4 modules.
If you have 3b in capital, you might retire from the low value t2 module market and trade some midrange faction and deadspace modules.
20b in capital, and you might start dealing in items like Marauders, pirate faction battleships, higher end deadspace modules, and high volume items used in production (like Titanium Diborite Armor Plate or Quantum Microprocessor).
100b in capital, and you will change to different things again, and get much more into speculation.
Trillions in capital, and you might be in a position to station trade PLEX.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5646
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Posted - 2015.02.10 09:08:43 -
[11] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Damzk Raholan wrote:So what I've gathered from this thread is that to scale up your station trading operations, you don't actually increase your station trading volumes. You increase your market reach.
Would you say this is correct? Any other input? You change what items you trade. If you have 100m in capital, high volume tech 2 modules under 1m/unit are the best thing to trade. If you have 500m, you might add in tech 2 modules up to 5m, carefully chosen tech 1 ships (mostly mining barges), and meta 4 modules. If you have 3b in capital, you might retire from the low value t2 module market and trade some midrange faction and deadspace modules. 20b in capital, and you might start dealing in items like Marauders, pirate faction battleships, higher end deadspace modules, and high volume items used in production (like Titanium Diborite Armor Plate or Quantum Microprocessor). 100b in capital, and you will change to different things again, and get much more into speculation. Trillions in capital, and you might be in a position to station trade PLEX.
I follow you quite well up to the 3B choice but I'd still keep trading 1M+ a piece worth T2 stuff. At 20B I'd not start dealing in slow moving stuff and I'd generally always avoid stuff that does not die often. I.e. I'd certainly deal in the "current doctrine FOTM" battleship even if that means lower margin than flipping marauders or pirate ships. Also, 20B is more than enough to start flipping some PLEXes.
At 100B I have long left daytrading ... ehm station trading. My 100B+ mutual and hedge funds IPO I did on MD some time ago shows good profits may be achieved by properly riding the markets and it holds true even today.
At trillions... one should have woken up since a while and discovered there's better to do than farming ISK like a sweat shop worker.
Even well before trillions one has to start caring about preserving his wealth against economy shifts. Hedging, investing, meta gaming, getting involved into space-politics... those are higher goals for such people. I personaly went for hedging, investing and meta gaming (I love the latter!), whereas I only went in "space politics" when I had to defend some properties of mine in low / null.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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Wolfs Clothing
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.02.10 23:07:18 -
[12] - Quote
I dont know if this has been asked but have you invested in the skills to up your number of market orders? A wider range of orders will allow you to trade both short and long term.
Have you looked at the contract market, some good deals can be made.
Place alts in other hubs and move stuff between - you can either ship yourself or if the profit provides get shipped by one of the Frogs/other haulers.
If you want to make your own thing find a FW/Inc/Pirate space and make a mini hub to fill their needs.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4602
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Posted - 2015.02.10 23:37:36 -
[13] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I follow you quite well up to the 3B choice but I'd still keep trading 1M+ a piece worth T2 stuff. At 20B I'd not start dealing in slow moving stuff and I'd generally always avoid stuff that does not die often. I.e. I'd certainly deal in the "current doctrine FOTM" battleship even if that means lower margin than flipping marauders or pirate ships. Also, 20B is more than enough to start flipping some PLEXes.
At 100B I have long left daytrading ... ehm station trading. My 100B+ mutual and hedge funds IPO I did on MD some time ago shows good profits may be achieved by properly riding the markets and it holds true even today.
At trillions... one should have woken up since a while and discovered there's better to do than farming ISK like a sweat shop worker.
Even well before trillions one has to start caring about preserving his wealth against economy shifts. Hedging, investing, meta gaming, getting involved into space-politics... those are higher goals for such people. I personaly went for hedging, investing and meta gaming (I love the latter!), whereas I only went in "space politics" when I had to defend some properties of mine in low / null.
Interesting insights.
I've avoided the T1 battleship market, mainly because I lack any ability to transport them, high m^3 courier contracts command a premium price, and because I had disappointing results with T1 cruisers and battlecruisers when I had only a couple billion behind me. I should research that market, however.
I deal in Marauders and pirate BSes but only really for interregional arbitrage. The discrepancies are gone now, but for a while Kronos hulls were 15% more in Dodixie than in Jita and I was just buying from Jita sell orders, couriering the hulls to Dodi and reselling there via sell orders. Prices on T1 battleship hulls tend to be more uniform as gamewide stockpiles are larger.
As for PLEX flipping - I have a 0.24% broker fee at Dodixie 9-20 and still feel this is too high to do much PLEX flipping. I could be wrong on this front, but I assumed the standard way to get into PLEX flipping was to earn trillions via other means, then spend 15-20 billion buying a character with incredible standings (for Dodi this might be 9.8 Gallente Federation and 9.998 Federation Navy), then use that character's extremely low broker fees to outcompete everyone in the huge turnover, low margin game that is PLEX flipping, mineral flipping or isotope flipping.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Koniforous
Tauren Transit
198
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Posted - 2015.02.10 23:50:13 -
[14] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I follow you quite well up to the 3B choice but I'd still keep trading 1M+ a piece worth T2 stuff. At 20B I'd not start dealing in slow moving stuff and I'd generally always avoid stuff that does not die often. I.e. I'd certainly deal in the "current doctrine FOTM" battleship even if that means lower margin than flipping marauders or pirate ships. Also, 20B is more than enough to start flipping some PLEXes.
At 100B I have long left daytrading ... ehm station trading. My 100B+ mutual and hedge funds IPO I did on MD some time ago shows good profits may be achieved by properly riding the markets and it holds true even today.
At trillions... one should have woken up since a while and discovered there's better to do than farming ISK like a sweat shop worker.
Even well before trillions one has to start caring about preserving his wealth against economy shifts. Hedging, investing, meta gaming, getting involved into space-politics... those are higher goals for such people. I personaly went for hedging, investing and meta gaming (I love the latter!), whereas I only went in "space politics" when I had to defend some properties of mine in low / null.
Interesting insights. I've avoided the T1 battleship market, mainly because I lack any ability to transport them, high m^3 courier contracts command a premium price, and because I had disappointing results with T1 cruisers and battlecruisers when I had only a couple billion behind me. I should research that market, however. I deal in Marauders and pirate BSes but only really for interregional arbitrage. The discrepancies are gone now, but for a while Kronos hulls were 15% more in Dodixie than in Jita and I was just buying from Jita sell orders, couriering the hulls to Dodi and reselling there via sell orders. Prices on T1 battleship hulls tend to be more uniform as gamewide stockpiles are larger. As for PLEX flipping - I have a 0.24% broker fee at Dodixie 9-20 and still feel this is too high to do much PLEX flipping. I could be wrong on this front, but I assumed the standard way to get into PLEX flipping was to earn trillions via other means, then spend 15-20 billion buying a character with incredible standings (for Dodi this might be 9.8 Gallente Federation and 9.998 Federation Navy), then use that character's extremely low broker fees to outcompete everyone in the huge turnover, low margin game that is PLEX flipping, mineral flipping or isotope flipping. Since hitting, maybe 5bil NAV, plex flipping has been my primary source of income. At first I was making several transactions a day, selling just purchased ones right away, but have since transitioned into riding weekly waves, and plex sales. ...
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4602
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Posted - 2015.02.11 00:00:47 -
[15] - Quote
Heh, I really misunderstood that market.
Ah well. If you have something totally and utterly wrong about a market, better to not be in it.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
4
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Posted - 2015.02.11 15:08:21 -
[16] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote: As for PLEX flipping - I have a 0.24% broker fee at Dodixie 9-20 and still feel this is too high to do much PLEX flipping. I could be wrong on this front, but I assumed the standard way to get into PLEX flipping was to earn trillions via other means, then spend 15-20 billion buying a character with incredible standings (for Dodi this might be 9.8 Gallente Federation and 9.998 Federation Navy), then use that character's extremely low broker fees to outcompete everyone in the huge turnover, low margin game that is PLEX flipping, mineral flipping or isotope flipping.
I am at 0.23% broker fee and still don't find immediate PLEX re-selling to be quite effective for me, at current prices my tax is about 1.83 mil, even at 0.19% it won't be lower than 1.5, so riding the wave it is...Only it requires substantial capital, one which I've already invested in other trade goods. Sure, I've made some profit from PLEX-es, but I don't bother trading 'em unless the margin is over 16 mil. They usually go low in the morning EU time, been there, done that, but with the few numbers I trade it wasn't worth it. The way I see it, I am going to need another hundred billion to be able to cover all of my fronts. :)
PS. I gave up raising my standings - did all tutorials, sisters of EVE and Penumbra epic arcs, lots and lots of missions and in the end it gave me a courier mission with 0.03 standing increase....great! I lost more money not trading than I am going to save with the extra 0.01%. :) |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5646
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Posted - 2015.02.11 15:15:11 -
[17] - Quote
Koniforous wrote: Since hitting, maybe 5bil NAV, plex flipping has been my primary source of income. At first I was making several transactions a day, selling just purchased ones right away, but have since transitioned into riding weekly waves, and plex sales. ...
Well, in my case when I hit 5B NAV within my 2nd month of trading. That left me with not enough time to have characters with high Caldari standings and still not ISK enough to buy one. At the time I loved missioning, so I got standings doing Cosmos and L4, on my own. That also followed my theory: "if you practice and do everything, you'll know more than your competitors", so I learned about Caldari Navy items, about how to profit with contracts and so on.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4607
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 23:06:39 -
[18] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Well, in my case I hit 5B NAV within my 2nd month of trading. That left me with not enough time to have characters with high Caldari standings and still not ISK enough to buy one. At the time I loved missioning, so I got standings doing Cosmos and L4, on my own. That also followed my theory: "if you practice and do everything, you'll know more than your competitors", so I learned about Caldari Navy items, about how to profit with contracts and so on.
I have a variant on that last theory. "If you have specialised knowledge about an aspect of EVE, you can find a way to profit from it. The more people who have that knowledge, the less lucrative it will become".
I know a *lot* about the economics of suicide ganking - I know where low price buy orders for mining paraphernalia will be filled, and where, uh, my alliance's clients will be looking to buy replacement Mackinaws, Hulks, Skiffs and barges. Likewise I know a good deal about missions from my early EVE experience, and a bit about EVE's lowsec campus from other sources.
Each of these provides some information that can be used to control a small market niche.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Damzk Raholan
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.02.11 23:55:18 -
[19] - Quote
@Sabriz, you've got my vote.
As for the topic at hand, I have tried to move into faction/deadspace modules. It's... interesting. I have a few questions regarding this and another area.
Alright, so how low is TOO low for volume per day? I've put some orders up for items that get traded as low as 1 unit per day on average. A lot of the Core-X and what not seem to trade at about 5-8 per day. Is that still too low? Should I be choosing 25-40% margins on 10+ traded per day items? What are your thresholds? Having the answer to this will definitely give me a boost in my trading knowledge.
My other question is this. I've recently purchased some spreadsheets from /Sellorders/ and I've noticed that a lot of people use these spreadsheets to buy SELL ORDERS from Jita/Other hubs and transport them and sell to other hubs. Completely removing the need for the 0.01 game. Is this speculation wrong? Is inter-hub trading just the 0.01 game in 4 different hubs at a time and using RF or Push-X to move the freight? It seems some items can be just bought at sell order prices (meaning you don't need to tinker with the troublesome 0.01 buy order game) and sell them as sell orders in other regions.
Any input on either of these areas above would be very much appreciated. |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
199
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Posted - 2015.02.12 00:30:11 -
[20] - Quote
Damzk Raholan wrote:@Sabriz, you've got my vote.
As for the topic at hand, I have tried to move into faction/deadspace modules. It's... interesting. I have a few questions regarding this and another area.
Alright, so how low is TOO low for volume per day? I've put some orders up for items that get traded as low as 1 unit per day on average. A lot of the Core-X and what not seem to trade at about 5-8 per day. Is that still too low? Should I be choosing 25-40% margins on 10+ traded per day items? What are your thresholds? Having the answer to this will definitely give me a boost in my trading knowledge.
My other question is this. I've recently purchased some spreadsheets from /Sellorders/ and I've noticed that a lot of people use these spreadsheets to buy SELL ORDERS from Jita/Other hubs and transport them and sell to other hubs. Completely removing the need for the 0.01 game. Is this speculation wrong? Is inter-hub trading just the 0.01 game in 4 different hubs at a time and using RF or Push-X to move the freight? It seems some items can be just bought at sell order prices (meaning you don't need to tinker with the troublesome 0.01 buy order game) and sell them as sell orders in other regions.
Any input on either of these areas above would be very much appreciated. Deciding on items that have low daily movement is entirely up to you. Decide on how much raw isk you want to make per month, or how much % profit you want to make per month, and then seek an average per day value from these goals. Supplement low volume high margin items with high volume low margin items to achieve your target daily gain. Reevaluate weekly if you are on track to achieve your monthly isk or % goal. If you are not on track, consider dumping something that isn't working for your style, even at a small loss.
If you have funds sitting in assets that aren't moving at their desired or your required pace, they are costing you isk, that's why I say consider dumping them at a loss. That loss might be smaller than keeping the item when you could use its capital to invest into something that makes you isk right away. I have dumped battleships before at a slight loss to capitalize on wonderful opportunities that made me more isk.
Trading is a very complex thing once you really start to get into.
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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Crying Assassin
InterSun Freelance SONS of BANE
2
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Posted - 2015.02.14 11:58:20 -
[21] - Quote
jumping in on the thread i have just started to dip my fingers into the trading aspect pf the game, what are considered to be the most useful in game tools or web links for comparing buy/sell prices of items throughout eve space? at the moment i am just sifting through the market manually and trading in quick turnover items |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1629
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Posted - 2015.02.18 00:52:44 -
[22] - Quote
Eve mentat is really powerful.
And big traders tend to have their own spreadsheets
Build your empire !
Rent Space in Feythabolis and Omist
Contact me for details :)
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1774
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Posted - 2015.02.22 08:30:46 -
[23] - Quote
Yes, spreadsheets ftw. Here's a starting point - I haven't looked at it in detail but the source is top notch. https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/2013/06/22/importing-price-data-into-spreadsheets/
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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