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Bloody Wench
137
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Posted - 2011.12.01 12:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
I run 5 planets in a WH.
I had to drag a character out of the WH. I had to source 5 prints. I had to pay for 5 lots of materials. I had to transport materials and prints to a station with slots available. I had to manufacture 5 Gantries. I had to source 5 lots of upgrade materials. I had to pay through the arse for Sterile Conduits. I had to wait 4 hours for the Gantries to finish. I had to transport the Gantries and upgrade materials back into the WH. I had to pay about 600M when it's all said and done.
But best of all....
I have to chew through 50,000,000 HP worth of crap before I can put mine up.
All in all I think you've still got it pretty easy doing PI in Hisec.
Just think about how many imports/exports you can do for 600M while safe in the knowledge you're not going to log in one day and find them all reinforced or just gone because you didn't log in for 2 days.
Now is probably a good time for you all to shut the hell up.
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Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
12
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Posted - 2011.12.01 12:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Poor you, you don't have to pay taxes |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
19
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Posted - 2011.12.01 12:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:I run 5 planets in a WH.
I had to drag a character out of the WH. I had to source 5 prints. I had to pay for 5 lots of materials. I had to transport materials and prints to a station with slots available. I had to manufacture 5 Gantries. I had to source 5 lots of upgrade materials. I had to pay through the arse for Sterile Conduits. I had to wait 4 hours for the Gantries to finish. I had to transport the Gantries and upgrade materials back into the WH. I had to pay about 600M when it's all said and done.
But best of all....
I have to chew through 50,000,000 HP worth of crap before I can put mine up.
All in all I think you've still got it pretty easy doing PI in Hisec.
Just think about how many imports/exports you can do for 600M while safe in the knowledge you're not going to log in one day and find them all reinforced or just gone because you didn't log in for 2 days.
Now is probably a good time for you all to shut the hell up.
Owning a business is a ***** |
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
0
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Posted - 2011.12.01 13:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's your choise to get better isks from wormholes and still the taxing will effect you also.
It will effect everyone in this game so yes you need to complain about it cause it effects you also.
You might not see it yet but you will when the prices start to sky rocket. |
Bloody Wench
138
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Posted - 2011.12.01 13:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lets say you spend 120M on taxes a month for your Hisec PI adventures, unlikely, but lets just say.
In 5 months time, 150 days, if I haven't had any of the POCOs blown up then we'll be even. Every day after those 5 months, sure I'll be pulling ahead, until they do get blown up. Then for each one that goes down it puts me a month behind again.
My choice.
I love the way you throw that at me. You say it like you have no choice. CCP Hillmar standing behind you with a .45 is he?
I don't normally find it worth my time to berrate people on the interwebs, however this time. The shear volume of retardation permeating the forums is staggering.
Hisec PI isn't going to lose money. I might, Hisec won't. EU is up to 15k a unit right now. Robotics over 86k.
Let me dredge up this tired cliche just one more time.
I'm going to outlay several billion ISK in infrastructure, in an environment where at any tick of the clock it can all be lost. This affords me the opportunity to make 4-5 times the quantity of PI product that hisec does, and pay no tax on it.
Hisec however your outlay is in the tens of millions isk, and nobody can take it away from you.
As much as it displeases me to say it, there is your risk vs reward. You ante up nothing but expect so much in return.
I hope that at this point you see the overwhelming disparity, and cease your bellyaching. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
191
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Posted - 2011.12.01 13:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
MY BELLY ACHES TOO!
I THINK IM HUNGRY THOUGH |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
12
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Posted - 2011.12.01 13:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
You forget few details, the most important being that WH planets are FAR MORE RICH that high sec ones.
And it's like 225MIL ISK PER DAY for a full factory set (getting 24 high tech of each per day), without extracting anything.
And guess what ? Selling those 8x24 high tech will give you 275mil ISK per day. 50mil isk profit per day.
And you have to buy all P1. 15480 units per day. I smell negative income out there...
Yay i'm happy, i avoided P3 taxes |
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
0
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Posted - 2011.12.01 14:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nope I can't see it, cause I'm looking at the rising fuel and equipment prices.
And yes it is your choise to try to get your isks out from WH space. No one says you need to go there and do it, it is entirely your choise. Someone don't want to try it and will never even go there. Then someone wants to profit from the industrialists there and so on. Thats the idea of the game, you can do what you want.
Paying taxes that rise prices for everyone even you is not something anyone wants. I know I can add the tax to the end product if I do empire PI and get it back from the consumer but I think its wrong cause the value of isk will change. It just feels wrong.
Again my opinion but I don't think that even PVP players want to pay more from their t2 ships cause POS fuel prices triple. And yes the price will end up into the end product. No one works for free (ok someone does). |
Bloody Wench
141
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Posted - 2011.12.01 17:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
It would seem that time is up on the discussion of this matter.
As per this statement
Quote: taxes for concord and interbus customs stations are working correctly reported by CCP Guard | 2011.12.01 17:18:43 | NEW
We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirmed that the tax rates match the design specifications. Please read this post for more information about the new tax rate on NPC Custom Offices.
I could say something along the lines of neener neener the free ride is over, but that would be juvenile. |
Herrington Vance
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2011.12.01 17:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hisec PI gets taxed (largely) out of existence. Lowsec/NPC Null PI gets largely curtailed by the locals for lulz. W-space/Sov Null PI looses the above as competition and reaps increased profits if they can defend their operations. (Eventually prices rise to the point where some Hi/Lo PI become profitable again for the risk-averse and anti-social)
I'm ok with this. |
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Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2011.12.01 18:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:It would seem that time is up on the discussion of this matter. As per this statementQuote: taxes for concord and interbus customs stations are working correctly reported by CCP Guard | 2011.12.01 17:18:43 | NEW
We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirmed that the tax rates match the design specifications. Please read this post for more information about the new tax rate on NPC Custom Offices.
I could say something along the lines of neener neener the free ride is over, but that would be juvenile.
Yes, because stating "Working as intented" always means the feature is a great idea... |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
15
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Posted - 2011.12.01 18:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:I run 5 planets in a WH.
I had to drag a character out of the WH. I had to source 5 prints. I had to pay for 5 lots of materials. I had to transport materials and prints to a station with slots available. I had to manufacture 5 Gantries. I had to source 5 lots of upgrade materials. I had to pay through the arse for Sterile Conduits. I had to wait 4 hours for the Gantries to finish. I had to transport the Gantries and upgrade materials back into the WH. I had to pay about 600M when it's all said and done.
But best of all....
I have to chew through 50,000,000 HP worth of crap before I can put mine up.
All in all I think you've still got it pretty easy doing PI in Hisec.
Just think about how many imports/exports you can do for 600M while safe in the knowledge you're not going to log in one day and find them all reinforced or just gone because you didn't log in for 2 days.
Now is probably a good time for you all to shut the hell up.
5 CO's means you basically had to kill 5 small pos's (same number of hp but a higher shield regen on the CO). For a small corp/solo person that is alot, for the decent sized corps/alliances it's child's play. |
Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles
6
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Your tears are delicious. |
Brothar Rey
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
3
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
I don't get it.
I paid about 1.2m isk in taxes to export 1620 of a certain POS fuel off a high-sec factory planet of mine. By the looks of it, I'm able to sell it for like 35-40 times that amount. For less then 10 minutes of PI clicking every 2.5 days.
I fail to see the complaints here. People are still making isk from PI. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
15
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Posted - 2011.12.01 21:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Brothar Rey wrote:I don't get it.
I paid about 1.2m isk in taxes to export 1620 of a certain POS fuel off a high-sec factory planet of mine. By the looks of it, I'm able to sell it for like 35-40 times that amount. For less then 10 minutes of PI clicking every 2.5 days.
I fail to see the complaints here. People are still making isk from PI.
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Borkers
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2011.12.01 21:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
Maybe somebody can check my math on something...
I've been flying a spreadsheet for some time, and based on Jita prices as of 5 hours ago it tells me that PI in high-sec is still pretty darned profitable. My extractor->P1 worlds (Oxygen and Plasmoids -- yes I know this wasn't optimum for hi-sec even pre-patch but I'm lazy) are actually about 5-10% more profitable than before. P3->P4 looks incredibly profitable, with one Sterile Conduits processor supposedly profiting 1.7M per hour even if you use instant buy and sell, and all P4->P5 if you get inputs with buy orders rather than instant.
Factory worlds for P0->P1 are a waste, but that was usually the case anyway. P1->P2 and P2->P3 definitely took a hit with the patch, but are still mostly profitable if you buy and sell with market orders rather than instant, even allowing for some slop in getting a good price. Some are still profitable even with instant trades (Vital Agent: 13K per hour per processor with instants, 59K with patience).
My spreadsheet bases price on reasonable quantities available, includes broker fees for market orders, includes sales tax, includes export cost, includes import cost, and assumes that the buy/sell spread will narrow by 10% before market orders are actually filled.
Supposedly doing diversified P3->P4 in hi-sec would net me 5-15M ISK per hour per planet. This seems absurd, and not consistent with the complaints about new taxes. What am I missing? Is this just a blip in the market, soon to be "fixed" by rising P3 costs?
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Osunn
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
1
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Posted - 2011.12.01 21:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
The cost process has just started to run. I use all of my PI for T2 production. My costs for PI have gone up at least five fold maybe more. The T2 on the market right now does not reflect this increase. So I hauled a production run to a market hub but did not put anything up. My best guess is that once a lot of the stored PI is exhausted ALL T2 products will jump in price by quite a lot but the isk generation in game has not changed at all. Maybe in a month or so we will see the null alliances dominating the market as they did when T2 bpos were released. It may not be quite the cartel it was but similar to rare moon materials today. Sucks if you are a newer player, prices go way up but income stays the same. It won't matter much if you are a large corp drone but if you have actually buy your ships well good luck you are going to need it. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
15
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Posted - 2011.12.02 00:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Osunn wrote: The cost process has just started to run. I use all of my PI for T2 production. My costs for PI have gone up at least five fold maybe more. The T2 on the market right now does not reflect this increase. So I hauled a production run to a market hub but did not put anything up. My best guess is that once a lot of the stored PI is exhausted ALL T2 products will jump in price by quite a lot but the isk generation in game has not changed at all. Maybe in a month or so we will see the null alliances dominating the market as they did when T2 bpos were released. It may not be quite the cartel it was but similar to rare moon materials today. Sucks if you are a newer player, prices go way up but income stays the same. It won't matter much if you are a large corp drone but if you have actually buy your ships well good luck you are going to need it.
+1. Let me hear an AMEN!
Now, you dogs without big alliance funding and T2 BPOs, prepare to bow before your new mistress! ME! BWA HA HA HA HA!
Seriously though this is, while fantastic for my bottom line, bad for eve overall. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
475
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Posted - 2011.12.02 00:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
...after a period of market price readjustments...
Highsec PI is back more or less to the pre-patch profitability level LS/0.0 people with any permanent military presence in the area set up their own POCOs to collect taxes at levels similar to those in highsec, having them pay for themselves in a matter of weeks, also getting "PvP on semi-demand" low tier W-space enjoys later benefits of no taxation with an initially small investment medium and higher tier w-space is still somewhat of a blur sov 0.0 space becomes increasingly profitable for the owners http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
Vio Geraci
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
113
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Posted - 2011.12.02 01:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
but but but the solo players with seven PI accounts will get bored shooting interbus offices |
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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
16
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Posted - 2011.12.02 02:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vio Geraci wrote:but but but the solo players with seven PI accounts will get bored shooting interbus offices
You know, I find it entertaining that so far the only people that seem 100% behind this is goonswarm. Gee, that fact that your alliance stands to make a staggering profit having driven your largest competitors out of the market by petitioning for this for the last year must have no impact at all on this position. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
48
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Posted - 2011.12.02 02:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Vio Geraci wrote:but but but the solo players with seven PI accounts will get bored shooting interbus offices You know, I find it entertaining that so far the only people that seem 100% behind this is goonswarm. Gee, that fact that your alliance stands to make a staggering profit having driven your largest competitors out of the market by petitioning for this for the last year must have no impact at all on this position.
That's a vast misrepresentation of the supporters of POCOs. Also, why wouldn't they be behind it if they have calculated they will make more isk? It's exactly the same attitude that brings most people here saying the changes are terrible - they will be making less isk. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
16
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Posted - 2011.12.02 02:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote: That's a vast misrepresentation of the supporters of POCOs. Also, why wouldn't they be behind it if they have calculated they will make more isk? It's exactly the same attitude that brings most people here saying the changes are terrible - they will be making less isk.
Sorry, doc, I'm making a killing on it and I still think it's a bad thing.
So, yes, I'm whining that I'm making too much isk.
Why? Because I've been down this road before in this game and even though I made a LOT of isk at it, the end result was brutal on the in game economy over all and led to people leaving the game. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
48
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Dr Mercy wrote: That's a vast misrepresentation of the supporters of POCOs. Also, why wouldn't they be behind it if they have calculated they will make more isk? It's exactly the same attitude that brings most people here saying the changes are terrible - they will be making less isk.
Sorry, doc, I'm making a killing on it and I still think it's a bad thing. So, yes, I'm whining that I'm making too much isk. Why? Because I've been down this road before in this game and even though I made a LOT of isk at it, the end result was brutal on the in game economy over all and led to people leaving the game.
Sorry, I just don't believe anyone is going to leave the game over the luke-warm passive income which is PI. And for the guys making more than luke-warm amounts of PI isk they already know how they will continue to make isk.
I haven't managed to read all your posts, but I haven't seen you explain *why* you think the changes are bad - so bad that you think people will genuinely leave the game over it. If this mere superlative exaggeration then fine, but can you please explain yourself with hysteria? Or link me to a post of yours? Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
16
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Posted - 2011.12.02 02:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote:[quote=Cygnet Lythanea] I haven't managed to read all your posts, but I haven't seen you explain *why* you think the changes are bad - so bad that you think people will genuinely leave the game over it. If this mere superlative exaggeration then fine, but can you please explain yourself with hysteria? Or link me to a post of yours?
Doc, I post because I remember the old days, when Tech II first came out and major alliances ran the show with tech II. The entire point of invention being added into the game was to break the stranglehold that groups like BoB and goons had on the T2 market.
Now, I was in with a group that had a T2 bpo for a HAC, so we were making, insane isk. You would not believe how much. Our profits were on something like 800%. I was one of the people that benefited most.
We'd sweep in and annihilate people. Until we ran head long into the BoB/FA war, we won nearly every fight. (Except that one time the drunk guys tried to fight a gate gun. It was funny, but got a couple noobs wiped due to a post patch active tank bug)
Do you think that sort of thing didn't cost eve players? I could build for a handful of isk a ship that tore apart ships that cost ten times as much to build. Do you remember the outrage over that T20 did? Those BPOs had power way beyond the mere isk that they generated.
Now, with this, I see the balance tipping back toward that. I see goons positively salivating because they remember it too, and are absolutely eager to get back to the days when alliances didn't just rule regions, they dominated everything from the furthest stars to the edge of high sec.
I actually had STK Scientific, way back in the day, send 40 guys to fight me, specifically. Not my corp. Me.
Does that give you some concept of how much wealth and power that sort of monopoly has?
The way this is set up, major alliances can simply run any high sec or even low sec operation right out of business. They can set their tax to zero, and using the fact that nullsec planets (as they should) produce more material then low or high sec ones, to simply crush anything in their way. It will be chaos in the T2 market. And then, once the PI player in high and low sec have given up because of losing too much isk, the alliances will jack the price through the roof for a while, until competition starts to return, and then repeat the process.
For a while low sec and high sec corps might make isk, but it's doubtful they'll be able to compete in the market against jump freighter imports from nullsec.
Believe me, I know the guys ferrying it in.
I'm one of them. |
Dalloway Jones
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
149
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Yeah I feel for the OP. I thought to myself "well if they want to drive me out of high sec PI maybe I'll just try going to low or null to do it." and then I thought about destroying the interbus CO and then installing not just one POCO but one for each of my PI planets (currently have around 15) on top of scouting out new planets and setting up a new CC on each one, and then either having to either a. defend or b. start over somewhere else if some bored players decided to destroy my CO's.
I've decided to just not bother. |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
Even if GSF set POCOs on every planet (it won't), set taxes to 100% (it won't) and had everyone do PI (they don't) it would not even come close to generating the amount of ISK for the alliance that technetium moons do.
Technetium moons that Mittani, the rest of the CSM, and the swarms directorate pretty much all agree should be nerfed and will be nerfed.
It's been hilarious how many tears have come about as a change that literally just one guy in Goonswarm put any effort into getting in place or cared about. |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
3
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Posted - 2011.12.02 11:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:I run 5 planets in a WH.
I had to drag a character out of the WH. I had to source 5 prints. I had to pay for 5 lots of materials. I had to transport materials and prints to a station with slots available. I had to manufacture 5 Gantries. I had to source 5 lots of upgrade materials. I had to pay through the arse for Sterile Conduits. I had to wait 4 hours for the Gantries to finish. I had to transport the Gantries and upgrade materials back into the WH. I had to pay about 600M when it's all said and done.
But best of all....
I have to chew through 50,000,000 HP worth of crap before I can put mine up.
All in all I think you've still got it pretty easy doing PI in Hisec.
Just think about how many imports/exports you can do for 600M while safe in the knowledge you're not going to log in one day and find them all reinforced or just gone because you didn't log in for 2 days.
Now is probably a good time for you all to shut the hell up.
Couldn't agree more. Lets face it, all of this crap is just to prepare for dust isn't it? Force as many people into low-sec as possible so that the wars over planets feed the players on their playstation 3's. People in WH's unfortunately have been shafted.
I'm soon forced to have to go through this list above, all so i can simply avoid these taxes. I have multipul accounts all doing PI in a wh, and i've already lost hundreds of millions to taxes. And even when i've finally got my own custom offices setup, they're just going to be giant floating targets for people to bait my corp to defend.
PI used to be fun for people not looking for pew pew. Now it's only going to be a massive alliances that dominate. Small corps and individuals be damned.
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Jita Joe2 Jones
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.02 12:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
the rate of Customs taxes is way too high , it effectively ends hi sec pi. a feature that new players were ostensibly to be able to use as evidenced by the relatively low skill requirements to get started. the time wasted trying to produce the material and the cost of getting it off the planet is better invested in other endeavours, that produce vastly higher revenues, which then can be used to purchase the products from low sec players. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
21
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Posted - 2011.12.02 13:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote: People in WH's unfortunately have been shafted.
I'm soon forced to have to go through this list above, all so i can simply avoid these taxes. I have multipul accounts all doing PI in a wh, and i've already lost hundreds of millions to taxes. And even when i've finally got my own custom offices setup, they're just going to be giant floating targets for people to bait my corp to defend.
PI used to be fun for people not looking for pew pew. Now it's only going to be a massive alliances that dominate. Small corps and individuals be damned.
Please,
You have lost nothing in taxes as every PI product has gone up. The taxes are being passed up the chain.
Time will tell how "vulnerable" these POCO's will be. but given the HP's, reinforcement timers and other factors like access timers, I don't see a ton of people making a habit of banging on these things. Maybe I am wrong.
But with a 30 day payback on my extraction planets, and about 15 days on my factory planets, I am fairly certain they will pay for themselves over time.
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