Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 10:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
FastJack316 wrote: If you're willing to breakdown what possible advantage there is to having 500 planets over 50 planets to an alliance of any size in your bizzare universe? Because here in reality the game mechanics are that planetary productivity for extraction is so high in 0.0 that there is incredibly minimal negative effects from having hundreds of people doing PI on the same planet, which is why those of us who do PI in 0.0 use the same handful of systems with the best/rarest planetary set ups. If we get another thousand characters doing PI we don't need to conquer another thousand planets, they just use the same ones. (it is also silly to think that we could produce all our own T2 modules with the huge relative disadvantage 0.0 production has compared to hisec, prices would have to absolutely skyrocket to make it sensible, but that's not really on topic)
Because if you read the other parts of the PI change, it's now possible to run more extraction heads per user then it was before due to the increase in bandwidth for transport on planet per level. Not having to upgrade means more power and CPU is available for other uses, meaning that each individual user is going to be able to suck up a greater percentage of the daily output. That minimal effect just got larger.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 11:55:00 -
[62] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Tasko Pal wrote:Cygnet, grownups are talking. Fastjack explained quite nicely why null sec PI isn't going to be a windfall for Goons (at least isk-wise, tear-wise might be a different story). Tasko, fastjack did nothing of the sort. He just sat there and misrepresented what I said, and then tried to dodge the subject by attacking my knowledge of 0.0. You know, the basic way to try an dodge an issue when you know real answers would hang you out to dry? Just counting the systems goons claim sov in doesn't give you the whole picture, which is what I've been talking about. Goons project power far beyond that. If this wasn't a big moneymaker for them, then goons wouldn't turn up in every thread about it attacking the posters that dislike the current approach. After all, no other alliance is doing so on such a scale and with such diligence, so goons must have an angle. You don't work it this hard without a reason.
Fastjack did just that in his very first post in this thread. Please read this stuff or please shut up. I might add that you may have a clue about 0.0, but when you talked about low sec in another thread, it was pretty clear you didn't have a clue.
And you haven't explained why the Goons have any issues to dodge. If they really wanted as an alliance this PI change, then why wouldn't they say so? There are no consequences to telling the world that they got what they wanted.
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
213
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 12:03:00 -
[63] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Because if you read the other parts of the PI change, it's now possible to run more extraction heads per user then it was before due to the increase in bandwidth for transport on planet per level. Not having to upgrade means more power and CPU is available for other uses, meaning that each individual user is going to be able to suck up a greater percentage of the daily output. That minimal effect just got larger. I don't know what you used it for, but I used it to make the extraction more flexible, i.e. I can move the extraction pin over a wider area of the planet before tearing down everything and starting on the fun process of migrating the entire PI structure group because the hotspot moved. |
Bloody Wench
159
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 13:04:00 -
[64] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Because if you read the other parts of the PI change, it's now possible to run more extraction heads per user then it was before due to the increase in bandwidth for transport on planet per level. Not having to upgrade means more power and CPU is available for other uses, meaning that each individual user is going to be able to suck up a greater percentage of the daily output. That minimal effect just got larger.
Not in Wh / 00 it doesn't. 1 ECU pulls so much material that there is zero reason to attempt to put another down. You couldn't process it, you just simply can't do it. Mostly I run between 6 and 8 factories just to keep up with 1-10 head ECU that will happily chug along for weeks on end at or about 36-45k an hour.
Your position is that of a purely hisec prospective, and only holds when extraction levels are around 10-12k an hour. As in 2 factories per full 10 head ECU. Outside of Hisec, extraction rates are that you're going to need a mimimum of 6 factories running all the time just to keep up. Using multiple ECU where the extraction rates aren't pathetic just doesn't work.
So the extra link bandwidth will go purely to longer main lines where the operator can then hit better locations just by moving the ECU further from the first storage location. It certainly wont allow for another wasted ECU.
I was giving you a fair bit of leeway with your comments but it's become plainly clear you have no experience outside of Hisec in these matters. |
Dragokenshin1
Dark Matter Systems
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 18:42:00 -
[65] - Quote
People must have personality and character to assume their options!
If you all hate people who live in High Sec, please close it NOW!!!! |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
123
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 18:54:00 -
[66] - Quote
All the price hikes are simply going to be passed on the the end consumer.
I saw that Hammerhead II's went from around 500,000 to around 600,000 per unit over the weekend. Fun staff. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:05:00 -
[67] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote: Not in Wh / 00 it doesn't. 1 ECU pulls so much material that there is zero reason to attempt to put another down. You couldn't process it, you just simply can't do it. Mostly I run between 6 and 8 factories just to keep up with 1-10 head ECU that will happily chug along for weeks on end at or about 36-45k an hour.
Your position is that of a purely hisec prospective, and only holds when extraction levels are around 10-12k an hour. As in 2 factories per full 10 head ECU. Outside of Hisec, extraction rates are that you're going to need a mimimum of 6 factories running all the time just to keep up. Using multiple ECU where the extraction rates aren't pathetic just doesn't work.
So the extra link bandwidth will go purely to longer main lines where the operator can then hit better locations just by moving the ECU further from the first storage location. It certainly wont allow for another wasted ECU.
I was giving you a fair bit of leeway with your comments but it's become plainly clear you have no experience outside of Hisec in these matters.
Why would you try to do it all on the same world?
What we were doing was using one planet as a factory for every two planets that were extracting. Dump the p0 in a corp hanger array and swap off to a corp mate who has a factory on the same world you're extracting from. This gives you way more then 6-8 factories to work with, and you can throttle production to suit your needs.
Trying to run the whole chain on a single world is only more profitable with high sec PI.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
225
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:07:00 -
[68] - Quote
Wait, p0? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:13:00 -
[69] - Quote
Raw extracted materials. In this case, it's more effective to focus the planet entirely on extracting every last drop you can, and then import it into a planet expressly set up to process everything.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Wibla
Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:18:00 -
[70] - Quote
Export P0? Did your mom drop you on your head as a baby? CEO Tactical Narcotics Team |
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
225
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:18:00 -
[71] - Quote
Yes, I know p0 are the raw materials, but that's a pretty dumb thing to do, post PI update doubly so.
I was actually just thinking "well, this explains a few things", I just needed confirmation. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:29:00 -
[72] - Quote
*shakes head* Stop and use your brain, if you're paying 0 for it, it makes sense, because it lets you process even more materials then you could previously.
Admittedly, it does require a team to do it, but, hey, you guys have been screaming how important teamwork is.
Two guys do nothing but extract while the third manages build orders. Sort of like two barges and an orca.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
225
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:46:00 -
[73] - Quote
So what you're saying is, you're extracting as much p0 as you can, extracting and paying tax on that, hauling that to factory planets, importing and paying tax on that, then going how far up the chain?
Have you done the math on what you're paying in taxes? Because from my napkin math, what you're doing when exporting p0 is paying 1500 isk to export enough p0 to make 20 p1, and then you're importing that at 750 isk pr unit, giving a cost of 2250 isk pr 20 units of p1 that you make. Compare that to what you'd get if you export p1, where 20 units of p1 would cost you 1000 isk. This is all assuming you're doing this in hisec.
Add to that the fact that you're also ending up having to do exports at least once a day, vs once every 4 days or so with p1, and I've no problem with seeing why you're so up in arms over the PI changes, you're literally doing it the worst way imaginable. |
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 16:07:00 -
[74] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:So what you're saying is, you're extracting as much p0 as you can, extracting and paying tax on that, hauling that to factory planets, importing and paying tax on that, then going how far up the chain?
Underlined the misunderstanding - if she owns the POCO(s), she pays ZERO tax on export/import. In that case, strip-mining and exporting the raw resources makes sense. |
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 16:08:00 -
[75] - Quote
yay, d00bllep0st |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
447
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 18:46:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ninyania alCladdyth wrote: Underlined the misunderstanding - if she owns the POCO(s), she pays ZERO tax on export/import. In that case, strip-mining and exporting the raw resources makes sense.
Well, other then the issue that you're spending a lot more time hauling due to the sheer bulk of P0 over P1.
One batch of P0 is 30 m3, which turns into 7.6 m3 when processed into P1. Almost a 4x reduction in volume.
Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days? |
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 18:59:00 -
[77] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:[Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days? Completely different question.
I was simply speaking to the "insane amount of excise tax" that would/would not be paid, not the "insane amount of manual labor" that would be required. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 18:59:00 -
[78] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:*shakes head* Stop and use your brain, if you're paying 0 for it, it makes sense, because it lets you process even more materials then you could previously.
Admittedly, it does require a team to do it, but, hey, you guys have been screaming how important teamwork is.
Two guys do nothing but extract while the third manages build orders. Sort of like two barges and an orca.
A "typical" extraction planet would be 1 ECU, 10 Ext Heads, 8 or 9 Basic Factories and launchpad?
So over 3 planets you end up with 24-27 factories and 3 ECU with 10 heads each.
Your idea is to get 4 ECU on 2 planets as "strip miners" then somehow transfer that huge wad of raw materials to a third planet with 22 Basic Factories?
Looks like a formula for excess P0 and Less P1 in the long run to me, as well as a lot more logistics work.
Additionally, a decent spot will fill a launchpad in under 24 hours, requiring way more intervention to properly maintain the system.
So
More P0 - check More P1 - nope More Labor - check More Intervention - check
Looks like a losing idea to me. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
228
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 19:14:00 -
[79] - Quote
Ninyania alCladdyth wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:[Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days? Completely different question. I was simply speaking to the "insane amount of excise tax" that would/would not be paid, not the "insane amount of manual labor" that would be required. Well, the excess tax was just the easiest to look at, if he's actually in lowsec or nullsec with their own POCO, then we're still left with the insane amount of hauling that this setup requires, and they're apparently effectively dedicating one char to do the actual manufacturing process, instead of having him extract as well. It's been a long while since I did try out the whole factory planet thing in hisec, starting with p0. Turned out it was literally a fucktonne of work for very little return.
As to the typical extraction planet, I used to do 1 ECU, 10 extraction heads, 1 storage pin, one launch pad and as many basic factories as I could shoehorn in. Now that I'm doing p0 to p2 as a test, I'm doing 2 ECUs with 3-5 heads each, 1 storage pin, 3-4 basic and 3-4 advanced, and 1 launchpad. I'm sacrificing some efficiency to separate the p0 from p1/p2. In fact, I'm contemplating making the storage pad a launchpad just for the 10k m3 storage, but I'm evaluating the need for storage capacity vs how quickly the extractors go below the basic factories' appetite before I reset them. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 19:42:00 -
[80] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Ninyania alCladdyth wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:[Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days? Completely different question. I was simply speaking to the "insane amount of excise tax" that would/would not be paid, not the "insane amount of manual labor" that would be required. Well, the excess tax was just the easiest to look at, if he's actually in lowsec or nullsec with their own POCO, then we're still left with the insane amount of hauling that this setup requires, and they're apparently effectively dedicating one char to do the actual manufacturing process, instead of having him extract as well. It's been a long while since I did try out the whole factory planet thing in hisec, starting with p0. Turned out it was literally a fucktonne of work for very little return. As to the typical extraction planet, I used to do 1 ECU, 10 extraction heads, 1 storage pin, one launch pad and as many basic factories as I could shoehorn in. Now that I'm doing p0 to p2 as a test, I'm doing 2 ECUs with 3-5 heads each, 1 storage pin, 3-4 basic and 3-4 advanced, and 1 launchpad. I'm sacrificing some efficiency to separate the p0 from p1/p2. In fact, I'm contemplating making the storage pad a launchpad just for the 10k m3 storage, but I'm evaluating the need for storage capacity vs how quickly the extractors go below the basic factories' appetite before I reset them.
With CPU usually being rather abundant on extraction planets, a LP is almost always preferable to a SF.
|
|
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 19:56:00 -
[81] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:So what you're saying is, you're extracting as much p0 as you can, extracting and paying tax on that, hauling that to factory planets, importing and paying tax on that, then going how far up the chain?
You're right, exporting raw is the most stupid thing to do, if you pay taxes.
She saids she's paying 0, i suppose this means she has no taxes, so it makes sense.
You can have a refining planet and change the schematics according to what you have in storage. |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 20:02:00 -
[82] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:A "typical" extraction planet would be 1 ECU, 10 Ext Heads, 8 or 9 Basic Factories and launchpad?
EXTRACT+P1 |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 20:17:00 -
[83] - Quote
Esunisen wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:A "typical" extraction planet would be 1 ECU, 10 Ext Heads, 8 or 9 Basic Factories and launchpad?
EXTRACT+P1
You don't seem top be balanced.
I can get more Basic Factories on an extraction planet, but I put 8 and use the excess Power and CPU to extend the range of the "base" to the ECU to cover more area.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 23:32:00 -
[84] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:
So over 3 planets you end up with 24-27 factories and 3 ECU with 10 heads each.
Your idea is to get 4 ECU on 2 planets as "strip miners" then somehow transfer that huge wad of raw materials to a third planet with 22 Basic Factories?
Looks like a formula for excess P0 and Less P1 in the long run to me, as well as a lot more logistics work.
Looks like a losing idea to me.
Actually across three planets it would be 12 ECU and 66 odd foundries, assuming that we're only going up one level.
Labor intensive, sure. But has some hefty productivity.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 01:04:00 -
[85] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:You don't seem to be balanced, you have factories sitting idle.
When screenshot was taken, extrators were stopped for more than 4 hours, with an almost depleted deposit. Sometimes Basic Factories run 24/7, well, in null they would. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 04:41:00 -
[86] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:
So over 3 planets you end up with 24-27 factories and 3 ECU with 10 heads each.
Your idea is to get 4 ECU on 2 planets as "strip miners" then somehow transfer that huge wad of raw materials to a third planet with 22 Basic Factories?
Looks like a formula for excess P0 and Less P1 in the long run to me, as well as a lot more logistics work.
Looks like a losing idea to me.
Actually across three planets it would be 12 ECU and 66 odd foundries, assuming that we're only going up one level. Labor intensive, sure. But has some hefty productivity.
Except now you are talking 9 planets or colonies, or whatever the hell you want to call them. I didn't say three accounts on three planets each, I said on three planets and I meant 3 installations. Love how you twist **** around to try to prove a point when you can't really prove the point.
Your way of two strip mining colonies and 1 factory colony will not yield more P1 product in the long haul and will take more effort. I don't see how that's a winning solution. Simply multiplying it by three to get nine colonies does not magicially make it smarter.
On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive? |
Bahr Cudas
Beta Ray Bill
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 05:17:00 -
[87] - Quote
Brothar Rey wrote:I don't get it.
I paid about 1.2m isk in taxes to export 1620 of a certain POS fuel off a high-sec factory planet of mine. By the looks of it, I'm able to sell it for like 35-40 times that amount. For less then 10 minutes of PI clicking every 2.5 days.
I fail to see the complaints here. People are still making isk from PI.
Sshhhhhh!! Haha Don't explain it to them. It'll be more business for us when they pack up and leave town. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
234
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 08:17:00 -
[88] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive? I was suspecting this would be the case, especially if we can only fit one ECU. I'm not sure if you can actually manage to fit 2 ECUs and 1 or 2 LPs, but I couldn't be arsed to do the maths, since it implied going in somewhere and testing the theory.
It's still rather dumb, though. From my perspective it still leaves you so hung up on exporting and importing a lot of materials at least once a day. And if it's in nullsec/lowsec, all it takes is for someone to camp the system/COs for a few days for their profits to go to ****, whereas if you extract to f.ex p2, you can go what looks like at least a week before you have to export anything.
vOv |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 13:36:00 -
[89] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive? I was suspecting this would be the case, especially if we can only fit one ECU. I'm not sure if you can actually manage to fit 2 ECUs and 1 or 2 LPs, but I couldn't be arsed to do the maths, since it implied going in somewhere and testing the theory. It's still rather dumb, though. From my perspective it still leaves you so hung up on exporting and importing a lot of materials at least once a day. And if it's in nullsec/lowsec, all it takes is for someone to camp the system/COs for a few days for their profits to go to ****, whereas if you extract to f.ex p2, you can go what looks like at least a week before you have to export anything. vOv Edit: Obviously, it should be added that extracting to p2 means two ECUs, which again means vastly reduced throughput, so if you have no taxes and just want to extract as much as possible, then I suppose p1'll be the better choice, I don't know. It's certainly better than p0, even if only just looking at the hilarious amount of work involved in exporting the p0 goo. I'm not doing the napkin work on it as I do have taxes to deal with, and not having to export more than once a week or two suits me just fine for a passive income that takes me about 5 minutes every second day to keep running after I've stabilized the planet setups.
The issue, in terms of efficiency, is that the ECU unit is a Power pig and consumes almost a third of the Power of a ECU and 10 Head system (2600 of the 8100 total).
This makes it very hard to get to the 11th extractor head and not gimp the factories.
In the "Old System" it was easier to do cool things like make P2 on a single planet. Now with the extreme Power required of the ECU it is not as easy to do things like that. It can be done, but you sacrifice total capacity/output for convenience.
There are many ways to "optimize" a PI production system. I choose to optimize mine around least time needed to run it. Which means minimizing hauling and reseting extractors. I know others that optimize around total output and spend more time to accomplish the extra gains. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
242
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 14:53:00 -
[90] - Quote
Yeah, I'm currently experimenting with 2 ECUs with 2-4 heads each, 3-4 basic for each type and 3-4 advanced (depending on whether or not I have excess p1/p0 I want to burn through). It's not the speediest system, but it's a hell of a lot less hassle than what it would be if I went in hard-core for p0 extraction.
Actually, come to think of it, just how quickly would one LP fill up with p0 if you could run two full ECUs? It has to suck up space something fierce. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |