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Bloody Wench
137
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Posted - 2011.12.01 12:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
I run 5 planets in a WH.
I had to drag a character out of the WH. I had to source 5 prints. I had to pay for 5 lots of materials. I had to transport materials and prints to a station with slots available. I had to manufacture 5 Gantries. I had to source 5 lots of upgrade materials. I had to pay through the arse for Sterile Conduits. I had to wait 4 hours for the Gantries to finish. I had to transport the Gantries and upgrade materials back into the WH. I had to pay about 600M when it's all said and done.
But best of all....
I have to chew through 50,000,000 HP worth of crap before I can put mine up.
All in all I think you've still got it pretty easy doing PI in Hisec.
Just think about how many imports/exports you can do for 600M while safe in the knowledge you're not going to log in one day and find them all reinforced or just gone because you didn't log in for 2 days.
Now is probably a good time for you all to shut the hell up.
|
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
12
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Posted - 2011.12.01 12:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Poor you, you don't have to pay taxes |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
19
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Posted - 2011.12.01 12:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:I run 5 planets in a WH.
I had to drag a character out of the WH. I had to source 5 prints. I had to pay for 5 lots of materials. I had to transport materials and prints to a station with slots available. I had to manufacture 5 Gantries. I had to source 5 lots of upgrade materials. I had to pay through the arse for Sterile Conduits. I had to wait 4 hours for the Gantries to finish. I had to transport the Gantries and upgrade materials back into the WH. I had to pay about 600M when it's all said and done.
But best of all....
I have to chew through 50,000,000 HP worth of crap before I can put mine up.
All in all I think you've still got it pretty easy doing PI in Hisec.
Just think about how many imports/exports you can do for 600M while safe in the knowledge you're not going to log in one day and find them all reinforced or just gone because you didn't log in for 2 days.
Now is probably a good time for you all to shut the hell up.
Owning a business is a ***** |
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 13:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's your choise to get better isks from wormholes and still the taxing will effect you also.
It will effect everyone in this game so yes you need to complain about it cause it effects you also.
You might not see it yet but you will when the prices start to sky rocket. |
Bloody Wench
138
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 13:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lets say you spend 120M on taxes a month for your Hisec PI adventures, unlikely, but lets just say.
In 5 months time, 150 days, if I haven't had any of the POCOs blown up then we'll be even. Every day after those 5 months, sure I'll be pulling ahead, until they do get blown up. Then for each one that goes down it puts me a month behind again.
My choice.
I love the way you throw that at me. You say it like you have no choice. CCP Hillmar standing behind you with a .45 is he?
I don't normally find it worth my time to berrate people on the interwebs, however this time. The shear volume of retardation permeating the forums is staggering.
Hisec PI isn't going to lose money. I might, Hisec won't. EU is up to 15k a unit right now. Robotics over 86k.
Let me dredge up this tired cliche just one more time.
I'm going to outlay several billion ISK in infrastructure, in an environment where at any tick of the clock it can all be lost. This affords me the opportunity to make 4-5 times the quantity of PI product that hisec does, and pay no tax on it.
Hisec however your outlay is in the tens of millions isk, and nobody can take it away from you.
As much as it displeases me to say it, there is your risk vs reward. You ante up nothing but expect so much in return.
I hope that at this point you see the overwhelming disparity, and cease your bellyaching. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
191
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Posted - 2011.12.01 13:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
MY BELLY ACHES TOO!
I THINK IM HUNGRY THOUGH |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
12
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Posted - 2011.12.01 13:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
You forget few details, the most important being that WH planets are FAR MORE RICH that high sec ones.
And it's like 225MIL ISK PER DAY for a full factory set (getting 24 high tech of each per day), without extracting anything.
And guess what ? Selling those 8x24 high tech will give you 275mil ISK per day. 50mil isk profit per day.
And you have to buy all P1. 15480 units per day. I smell negative income out there...
Yay i'm happy, i avoided P3 taxes |
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 14:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nope I can't see it, cause I'm looking at the rising fuel and equipment prices.
And yes it is your choise to try to get your isks out from WH space. No one says you need to go there and do it, it is entirely your choise. Someone don't want to try it and will never even go there. Then someone wants to profit from the industrialists there and so on. Thats the idea of the game, you can do what you want.
Paying taxes that rise prices for everyone even you is not something anyone wants. I know I can add the tax to the end product if I do empire PI and get it back from the consumer but I think its wrong cause the value of isk will change. It just feels wrong.
Again my opinion but I don't think that even PVP players want to pay more from their t2 ships cause POS fuel prices triple. And yes the price will end up into the end product. No one works for free (ok someone does). |
Bloody Wench
141
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Posted - 2011.12.01 17:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
It would seem that time is up on the discussion of this matter.
As per this statement
Quote: taxes for concord and interbus customs stations are working correctly reported by CCP Guard | 2011.12.01 17:18:43 | NEW
We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirmed that the tax rates match the design specifications. Please read this post for more information about the new tax rate on NPC Custom Offices.
I could say something along the lines of neener neener the free ride is over, but that would be juvenile. |
Herrington Vance
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hisec PI gets taxed (largely) out of existence. Lowsec/NPC Null PI gets largely curtailed by the locals for lulz. W-space/Sov Null PI looses the above as competition and reaps increased profits if they can defend their operations. (Eventually prices rise to the point where some Hi/Lo PI become profitable again for the risk-averse and anti-social)
I'm ok with this. |
|
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:It would seem that time is up on the discussion of this matter. As per this statementQuote: taxes for concord and interbus customs stations are working correctly reported by CCP Guard | 2011.12.01 17:18:43 | NEW
We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirmed that the tax rates match the design specifications. Please read this post for more information about the new tax rate on NPC Custom Offices.
I could say something along the lines of neener neener the free ride is over, but that would be juvenile.
Yes, because stating "Working as intented" always means the feature is a great idea... |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:I run 5 planets in a WH.
I had to drag a character out of the WH. I had to source 5 prints. I had to pay for 5 lots of materials. I had to transport materials and prints to a station with slots available. I had to manufacture 5 Gantries. I had to source 5 lots of upgrade materials. I had to pay through the arse for Sterile Conduits. I had to wait 4 hours for the Gantries to finish. I had to transport the Gantries and upgrade materials back into the WH. I had to pay about 600M when it's all said and done.
But best of all....
I have to chew through 50,000,000 HP worth of crap before I can put mine up.
All in all I think you've still got it pretty easy doing PI in Hisec.
Just think about how many imports/exports you can do for 600M while safe in the knowledge you're not going to log in one day and find them all reinforced or just gone because you didn't log in for 2 days.
Now is probably a good time for you all to shut the hell up.
5 CO's means you basically had to kill 5 small pos's (same number of hp but a higher shield regen on the CO). For a small corp/solo person that is alot, for the decent sized corps/alliances it's child's play. |
Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Your tears are delicious. |
Brothar Rey
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
I don't get it.
I paid about 1.2m isk in taxes to export 1620 of a certain POS fuel off a high-sec factory planet of mine. By the looks of it, I'm able to sell it for like 35-40 times that amount. For less then 10 minutes of PI clicking every 2.5 days.
I fail to see the complaints here. People are still making isk from PI. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Brothar Rey wrote:I don't get it.
I paid about 1.2m isk in taxes to export 1620 of a certain POS fuel off a high-sec factory planet of mine. By the looks of it, I'm able to sell it for like 35-40 times that amount. For less then 10 minutes of PI clicking every 2.5 days.
I fail to see the complaints here. People are still making isk from PI.
|
Borkers
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
Maybe somebody can check my math on something...
I've been flying a spreadsheet for some time, and based on Jita prices as of 5 hours ago it tells me that PI in high-sec is still pretty darned profitable. My extractor->P1 worlds (Oxygen and Plasmoids -- yes I know this wasn't optimum for hi-sec even pre-patch but I'm lazy) are actually about 5-10% more profitable than before. P3->P4 looks incredibly profitable, with one Sterile Conduits processor supposedly profiting 1.7M per hour even if you use instant buy and sell, and all P4->P5 if you get inputs with buy orders rather than instant.
Factory worlds for P0->P1 are a waste, but that was usually the case anyway. P1->P2 and P2->P3 definitely took a hit with the patch, but are still mostly profitable if you buy and sell with market orders rather than instant, even allowing for some slop in getting a good price. Some are still profitable even with instant trades (Vital Agent: 13K per hour per processor with instants, 59K with patience).
My spreadsheet bases price on reasonable quantities available, includes broker fees for market orders, includes sales tax, includes export cost, includes import cost, and assumes that the buy/sell spread will narrow by 10% before market orders are actually filled.
Supposedly doing diversified P3->P4 in hi-sec would net me 5-15M ISK per hour per planet. This seems absurd, and not consistent with the complaints about new taxes. What am I missing? Is this just a blip in the market, soon to be "fixed" by rising P3 costs?
|
Osunn
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
The cost process has just started to run. I use all of my PI for T2 production. My costs for PI have gone up at least five fold maybe more. The T2 on the market right now does not reflect this increase. So I hauled a production run to a market hub but did not put anything up. My best guess is that once a lot of the stored PI is exhausted ALL T2 products will jump in price by quite a lot but the isk generation in game has not changed at all. Maybe in a month or so we will see the null alliances dominating the market as they did when T2 bpos were released. It may not be quite the cartel it was but similar to rare moon materials today. Sucks if you are a newer player, prices go way up but income stays the same. It won't matter much if you are a large corp drone but if you have actually buy your ships well good luck you are going to need it. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Osunn wrote: The cost process has just started to run. I use all of my PI for T2 production. My costs for PI have gone up at least five fold maybe more. The T2 on the market right now does not reflect this increase. So I hauled a production run to a market hub but did not put anything up. My best guess is that once a lot of the stored PI is exhausted ALL T2 products will jump in price by quite a lot but the isk generation in game has not changed at all. Maybe in a month or so we will see the null alliances dominating the market as they did when T2 bpos were released. It may not be quite the cartel it was but similar to rare moon materials today. Sucks if you are a newer player, prices go way up but income stays the same. It won't matter much if you are a large corp drone but if you have actually buy your ships well good luck you are going to need it.
+1. Let me hear an AMEN!
Now, you dogs without big alliance funding and T2 BPOs, prepare to bow before your new mistress! ME! BWA HA HA HA HA!
Seriously though this is, while fantastic for my bottom line, bad for eve overall. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
475
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
...after a period of market price readjustments...
Highsec PI is back more or less to the pre-patch profitability level LS/0.0 people with any permanent military presence in the area set up their own POCOs to collect taxes at levels similar to those in highsec, having them pay for themselves in a matter of weeks, also getting "PvP on semi-demand" low tier W-space enjoys later benefits of no taxation with an initially small investment medium and higher tier w-space is still somewhat of a blur sov 0.0 space becomes increasingly profitable for the owners http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
Vio Geraci
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
113
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
but but but the solo players with seven PI accounts will get bored shooting interbus offices |
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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vio Geraci wrote:but but but the solo players with seven PI accounts will get bored shooting interbus offices
You know, I find it entertaining that so far the only people that seem 100% behind this is goonswarm. Gee, that fact that your alliance stands to make a staggering profit having driven your largest competitors out of the market by petitioning for this for the last year must have no impact at all on this position. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
48
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Vio Geraci wrote:but but but the solo players with seven PI accounts will get bored shooting interbus offices You know, I find it entertaining that so far the only people that seem 100% behind this is goonswarm. Gee, that fact that your alliance stands to make a staggering profit having driven your largest competitors out of the market by petitioning for this for the last year must have no impact at all on this position.
That's a vast misrepresentation of the supporters of POCOs. Also, why wouldn't they be behind it if they have calculated they will make more isk? It's exactly the same attitude that brings most people here saying the changes are terrible - they will be making less isk. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote: That's a vast misrepresentation of the supporters of POCOs. Also, why wouldn't they be behind it if they have calculated they will make more isk? It's exactly the same attitude that brings most people here saying the changes are terrible - they will be making less isk.
Sorry, doc, I'm making a killing on it and I still think it's a bad thing.
So, yes, I'm whining that I'm making too much isk.
Why? Because I've been down this road before in this game and even though I made a LOT of isk at it, the end result was brutal on the in game economy over all and led to people leaving the game. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
48
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Dr Mercy wrote: That's a vast misrepresentation of the supporters of POCOs. Also, why wouldn't they be behind it if they have calculated they will make more isk? It's exactly the same attitude that brings most people here saying the changes are terrible - they will be making less isk.
Sorry, doc, I'm making a killing on it and I still think it's a bad thing. So, yes, I'm whining that I'm making too much isk. Why? Because I've been down this road before in this game and even though I made a LOT of isk at it, the end result was brutal on the in game economy over all and led to people leaving the game.
Sorry, I just don't believe anyone is going to leave the game over the luke-warm passive income which is PI. And for the guys making more than luke-warm amounts of PI isk they already know how they will continue to make isk.
I haven't managed to read all your posts, but I haven't seen you explain *why* you think the changes are bad - so bad that you think people will genuinely leave the game over it. If this mere superlative exaggeration then fine, but can you please explain yourself with hysteria? Or link me to a post of yours? Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote:[quote=Cygnet Lythanea] I haven't managed to read all your posts, but I haven't seen you explain *why* you think the changes are bad - so bad that you think people will genuinely leave the game over it. If this mere superlative exaggeration then fine, but can you please explain yourself with hysteria? Or link me to a post of yours?
Doc, I post because I remember the old days, when Tech II first came out and major alliances ran the show with tech II. The entire point of invention being added into the game was to break the stranglehold that groups like BoB and goons had on the T2 market.
Now, I was in with a group that had a T2 bpo for a HAC, so we were making, insane isk. You would not believe how much. Our profits were on something like 800%. I was one of the people that benefited most.
We'd sweep in and annihilate people. Until we ran head long into the BoB/FA war, we won nearly every fight. (Except that one time the drunk guys tried to fight a gate gun. It was funny, but got a couple noobs wiped due to a post patch active tank bug)
Do you think that sort of thing didn't cost eve players? I could build for a handful of isk a ship that tore apart ships that cost ten times as much to build. Do you remember the outrage over that T20 did? Those BPOs had power way beyond the mere isk that they generated.
Now, with this, I see the balance tipping back toward that. I see goons positively salivating because they remember it too, and are absolutely eager to get back to the days when alliances didn't just rule regions, they dominated everything from the furthest stars to the edge of high sec.
I actually had STK Scientific, way back in the day, send 40 guys to fight me, specifically. Not my corp. Me.
Does that give you some concept of how much wealth and power that sort of monopoly has?
The way this is set up, major alliances can simply run any high sec or even low sec operation right out of business. They can set their tax to zero, and using the fact that nullsec planets (as they should) produce more material then low or high sec ones, to simply crush anything in their way. It will be chaos in the T2 market. And then, once the PI player in high and low sec have given up because of losing too much isk, the alliances will jack the price through the roof for a while, until competition starts to return, and then repeat the process.
For a while low sec and high sec corps might make isk, but it's doubtful they'll be able to compete in the market against jump freighter imports from nullsec.
Believe me, I know the guys ferrying it in.
I'm one of them. |
Dalloway Jones
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
149
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Yeah I feel for the OP. I thought to myself "well if they want to drive me out of high sec PI maybe I'll just try going to low or null to do it." and then I thought about destroying the interbus CO and then installing not just one POCO but one for each of my PI planets (currently have around 15) on top of scouting out new planets and setting up a new CC on each one, and then either having to either a. defend or b. start over somewhere else if some bored players decided to destroy my CO's.
I've decided to just not bother. |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
Even if GSF set POCOs on every planet (it won't), set taxes to 100% (it won't) and had everyone do PI (they don't) it would not even come close to generating the amount of ISK for the alliance that technetium moons do.
Technetium moons that Mittani, the rest of the CSM, and the swarms directorate pretty much all agree should be nerfed and will be nerfed.
It's been hilarious how many tears have come about as a change that literally just one guy in Goonswarm put any effort into getting in place or cared about. |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:I run 5 planets in a WH.
I had to drag a character out of the WH. I had to source 5 prints. I had to pay for 5 lots of materials. I had to transport materials and prints to a station with slots available. I had to manufacture 5 Gantries. I had to source 5 lots of upgrade materials. I had to pay through the arse for Sterile Conduits. I had to wait 4 hours for the Gantries to finish. I had to transport the Gantries and upgrade materials back into the WH. I had to pay about 600M when it's all said and done.
But best of all....
I have to chew through 50,000,000 HP worth of crap before I can put mine up.
All in all I think you've still got it pretty easy doing PI in Hisec.
Just think about how many imports/exports you can do for 600M while safe in the knowledge you're not going to log in one day and find them all reinforced or just gone because you didn't log in for 2 days.
Now is probably a good time for you all to shut the hell up.
Couldn't agree more. Lets face it, all of this crap is just to prepare for dust isn't it? Force as many people into low-sec as possible so that the wars over planets feed the players on their playstation 3's. People in WH's unfortunately have been shafted.
I'm soon forced to have to go through this list above, all so i can simply avoid these taxes. I have multipul accounts all doing PI in a wh, and i've already lost hundreds of millions to taxes. And even when i've finally got my own custom offices setup, they're just going to be giant floating targets for people to bait my corp to defend.
PI used to be fun for people not looking for pew pew. Now it's only going to be a massive alliances that dominate. Small corps and individuals be damned.
|
Jita Joe2 Jones
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 12:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
the rate of Customs taxes is way too high , it effectively ends hi sec pi. a feature that new players were ostensibly to be able to use as evidenced by the relatively low skill requirements to get started. the time wasted trying to produce the material and the cost of getting it off the planet is better invested in other endeavours, that produce vastly higher revenues, which then can be used to purchase the products from low sec players. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote: People in WH's unfortunately have been shafted.
I'm soon forced to have to go through this list above, all so i can simply avoid these taxes. I have multipul accounts all doing PI in a wh, and i've already lost hundreds of millions to taxes. And even when i've finally got my own custom offices setup, they're just going to be giant floating targets for people to bait my corp to defend.
PI used to be fun for people not looking for pew pew. Now it's only going to be a massive alliances that dominate. Small corps and individuals be damned.
Please,
You have lost nothing in taxes as every PI product has gone up. The taxes are being passed up the chain.
Time will tell how "vulnerable" these POCO's will be. but given the HP's, reinforcement timers and other factors like access timers, I don't see a ton of people making a habit of banging on these things. Maybe I am wrong.
But with a 30 day payback on my extraction planets, and about 15 days on my factory planets, I am fairly certain they will pay for themselves over time.
|
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Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:Time will tell how "vulnerable" these POCO's will be. but given the HP's, reinforcement timers and other factors like access timers, I don't see a ton of people making a habit of banging on these things. Maybe I am wrong.
I hope your right. But i've heard it said many times that if someone really wants to take your WH, then they'll be little you can do to stop them. I'm sure the same applies to these POCO's!
I predict alliances will now start to take notice of PI and dominate it, and expect taxes will be even higher for players not affilated with them.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:43:00 -
[32] - Quote
ATM: goonswarm supposedly runs on technicum moons, if you believe their pr flacks. Given that it's anticipated that these will be nerfed at some point, PI domination is the logical place to go. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
double post |
Menrith Hadel
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:44:00 -
[34] - Quote
Borkers wrote:Maybe somebody can check my math on something...
I've been flying a spreadsheet for some time, and based on Jita prices as of 5 hours ago it tells me that PI in high-sec is still pretty darned profitable. My extractor->P1 worlds (Oxygen and Plasmoids -- yes I know this wasn't optimum for hi-sec even pre-patch but I'm lazy) are actually about 5-10% more profitable than before. P3->P4 looks incredibly profitable, with one Sterile Conduits processor supposedly profiting 1.7M per hour even if you use instant buy and sell, and all P4->P5 if you get inputs with buy orders rather than instant.
Factory worlds for P0->P1 are a waste, but that was usually the case anyway. P1->P2 and P2->P3 definitely took a hit with the patch, but are still mostly profitable if you buy and sell with market orders rather than instant, even allowing for some slop in getting a good price. Some are still profitable even with instant trades (Vital Agent: 13K per hour per processor with instants, 59K with patience).
My spreadsheet bases price on reasonable quantities available, includes broker fees for market orders, includes sales tax, includes export cost, includes import cost, and assumes that the buy/sell spread will narrow by 10% before market orders are actually filled.
Supposedly doing diversified P3->P4 in hi-sec would net me 5-15M ISK per hour per planet. This seems absurd, and not consistent with the complaints about new taxes. What am I missing? Is this just a blip in the market, soon to be "fixed" by rising P3 costs?
Nobody who unironically posted things like "I'm cancelling all 5 of my hi-sec PI accounts CCP!!!!1" bothered to run the new numbers, and were probably so bad at spreadsheets that they were missing out on a lot of profit pre-patch anyway. Everyone who kept their heads cool and actually analyzed the situation is making plenty of money right now (or will be soon as things stabilize). Those people are likely also smart enough to not post about this fact, as it's good for them if lots of idiots quit doing PI. |
Liam Money
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 17:04:00 -
[35] - Quote
I'm not sure why everyone waited until now to complain. Could you really not see this coming? I haven't sold any of my PI materials since they announced this stuff would go into effect and right now I am sitting on massive stockpiles of PI materials whose prices are currently going throught he roof, ka ching!! All this means is what we already knew when this was announced. PI materials will increase in price, POS fuels will increase in price, and if you want to do PI, even in HI sec you will need at least a little start up money to get going, but for the long term it really means nothing for HI sec PI as the added costs will be passed on to the buyer. Where this will really hurt will be in lo-sec space, which was just made even more worthless than it already is. Nobody in their right mind is going to blow up an interbus station and put up their own. There is absolutely no good way to defend these little stations in lo-sec, and you will be greifed to tears if you put one up there. Null sec is easy enough for large alliances to defend little PI farms out in the middle of no where. All in all this will simply lower the supply of PI items, drive up the price of PI items, hurting the little guys and small corps who put up POS's in lo sec or worm holes. |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 19:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Let me pause the goonrambling for a moment: You DO realize that putting it at 100% would be backwards to making it an alliance cash cow, right? I know it's counter intuitive, but yeah, the money isn't made on site.
I've met mittani, I know he's smarter then this guy, and I know that if he figures that his existing cash cow is on the way out, that he needs to find, or create, a new one.
Yes it would disincentivize Alliance members from doing PI (not to zero of course because the prices have gone above the indexed value and there's a strategic incentive to producing our own POS fuel) and blah blah boring economic analysis, I know. I was saying that even if we assumed a hypothetical case that everyone single character in GSF did PI at alliance tax rate 100% returns it wouldn't come close to technetium moon income.
Mittani's definitely not going to overlook a potential revenue stream (and POCOs with modest tax rates are a great passive revenue stream like ratting taxes) but it simply isn't relevant enough to have been part of some ridiculous conspiracy theory year long push by the entire alliance to get it put into place to finally beat those dastardly empire geniuses with the PI.
All the people whose competition the alliance actually cares about live in 0.0 too, with the same relative advantage. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 23:46:00 -
[37] - Quote
FastJack316 wrote: Mittani's definitely not going to overlook a potential revenue stream (and POCOs with modest tax rates are a great passive revenue stream like ratting taxes) but it simply isn't relevant enough to have been part of some ridiculous conspiracy theory year long push by the entire alliance to get it put into place to finally beat those dastardly empire geniuses with the PI.
All the people whose competition the alliance actually cares about live in 0.0 too, with the same relative advantage.
Not one of them has this advantage on the scale that goons do. And, sure, all the nullsec alliances have the same advantage.. now.
Sorry, the only thing I see this as is an attempt to squeeze the invention genie back into the lamp by CCP, because it's taken too much isk from the wallets of major alliances, and I've heard too many of you, goons included, whine for the old days when T2 production was very much an 'Alliance Only' Club.
I hate to say this, but long experience in this game leaves me with the impression of a fox telling chickens 'It's safe. Trust me! Would I lie?' |
Borun Tal
One More Corp
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 00:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
Personally, I think if CCP wanted to either eliminate PI or make it another isk source for sov-holding alliances they should have the stones and integrity to just say it. The taxation move is a pretty obvious (read: blatant) move on high-sec PI without admitting to it in "game design".
If you want people out of high, eliminate all but noob systems.
If you want people to do pew-pew in null, make a move to eliminate non-pew from high.
If you want to change the face of the game, just do it. Don't hide behind silly tactics like the taxation thing.
No tears, just too old for stupid games like we've seen from CCP in recent months. |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 01:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Not one of them has this advantage on the scale that goons do. And, sure, all the nullsec alliances have the same advantage.. now.
Sorry, the only thing I see this as is an attempt to squeeze the invention genie back into the lamp by CCP, because it's taken too much isk from the wallets of major alliances, and I've heard too many of you, goons included, whine for the old days when T2 production was very much an 'Alliance Only' Club.
I hate to say this, but long experience in this game leaves me with the impression of a fox telling chickens 'It's safe. Trust me! Would I lie?'
I'm not even sure what you're on about. pmchem agitated for a PI tax hike to curb invention? That's silly. You're silly.
T2 demand is highly inelastic because out here we actually use it for shooting things (which is the reason we play eve) so the price of some T2 materials going up by 15% will have a minimal effect on the number of T2 products you can sell. It won't effect datacores at all, which being a 100% passive isk source are the actual invention genie that a nerf would need to be aimed at. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
435
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 02:07:00 -
[40] - Quote
FastJack316 wrote:It won't effect datacores at all, which being a 100% passive isk source are the actual invention genie that a nerf would need to be aimed at.
Datacores are not an ISK source. They fall into the same bucket as mineral mining, ice mining and loot drops. They only have value because other players will pay for them, there are no NPCs that will buy your datacores so no way to move ISK out of a NPC wallet into your wallet. |
|
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 02:34:00 -
[41] - Quote
I solved this problem by not caring. While I don't have extensive PI operations, what I do have remains worth the bother.
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Not one of them has this advantage on the scale that goons do. And, sure, all the nullsec alliances have the same advantage.. now.
Wait, trash-talking in local generates PI now? Who knew?
More seriously, the goons are pretty smart players and they knocked up the oxytopes market, but let's not get bowled-over stupid here. Anyone with deep blue space will be able to do whatever the Goons currently can do. And there will probably be a bunch of others in null, WH, and low sec that will do well with PI. Finally, I bet we'll see the "my minerals are free" crowd producing gobs of PI in high sec as well. It's not going to be a magic money maker for Goons.
|
Bloody Wench
148
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
Osunn wrote: The cost process has just started to run. I use all of my PI for T2 production. My costs for PI have gone up at least five fold maybe more. The T2 on the market right now does not reflect this increase. So I hauled a production run to a market hub but did not put anything up. My best guess is that once a lot of the stored PI is exhausted ALL T2 products will jump in price by quite a lot but the isk generation in game has not changed at all. Maybe in a month or so we will see the null alliances dominating the market as they did when T2 bpos were released. It may not be quite the cartel it was but similar to rare moon materials today. Sucks if you are a newer player, prices go way up but income stays the same. It won't matter much if you are a large corp drone but if you have actually buy your ships well good luck you are going to need it.
I agree with your sentiments regarding an overall price increase in the areas that have PI as an input.
However I strongly disagree that "ISK generation ingame has not increased at all". One only needs to take a cursory look at all the 'nerf hisec incursions' threads to realise that. You may also not know that a mere 10 anomolies in a C4 will net you close to a billion ISK in blue tags. Blue tags are the only faucets in WH's, everything else is player bought.
I want to be absolutely clear on ISK generation. When you sell stuff to NPCs or get a bounty from an NPC for killing an NPC, this is generating ISK. This is not the same as selling stuff to players.
There are large opportunities to generate vastly more ISK now than there were 'in the old days'. However for the longest time there have been no effective sinks ingame. While I don't have a source onhand, I distinctly remember reading that the majority of PI is done in Hisec. We need some form of effective sink to counter the reletively recent avalanche of ISK that are WHs and incursions, thus we have the PI tax. While not explicitly stated by CCP, that's my theory.
So unless you want to be paying 40 isk per unit of trit, there needs to be a way to keep the overall volume of isk in check. If these taxes are indeed removing large quantities of ISK from circulation, then what will actually happen is that prices will go down numerically, because ISK is worth more per unit. It is sometimes hard to get your head around, but ISK only has value with relation to time. In 04-05 generating a Billion ISK was a big deal and would take a substantial amount of time and effort, then along came Insurance fraud which took entirely too long to get fixed, and generated vast quantities of ISK. I'm deliberately ignoring missions as they have been around for the longest time. Now there is incursions and Wormholes generating vast quantities of ISK and there needs to be some way to remove it.
There needs to be a tax on Hisec to help remove some of the ISK generated by Hisec NPC killing. Null anoms and ratting are offset to some degree by sov and alliance bills. Wormholes seem to be the odd ones out in this respect as there is no sink there, once you replace the Interbus offices. The only way for this to fail completely for CCP is if every Hisec PI operator did indeed cease all PI related activities. CCP has quite reasonably wagered that won't happen.
The people who are blaming goons...I just don't know what to tell you. |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:56:00 -
[43] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:FastJack316 wrote:It won't effect datacores at all, which being a 100% passive isk source are the actual invention genie that a nerf would need to be aimed at. Datacores are not an ISK source. They fall into the same bucket as mineral mining, ice mining and loot drops. They only have value because other players will pay for them, there are no NPCs that will buy your datacores so no way to move ISK out of a NPC wallet into your wallet.
We were discussing invention, which exists solely to sell things to players. That I was saying isk source in the sense of 'source of products that never runs out and you can always sell to someone' should be obvious from the context.
Tasko Pal wrote:
Wait, trash-talking in local generates PI now? Who knew?
We cannot allow a local spam gap. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:00:00 -
[44] - Quote
The reason that goons are getting the blame is partially due to some things being said by EoG and by being the most prominent supporters of it, who also conveniently stand to make the most isk off high sec getting taxed.
AS fa as an isk sink goes, someone in another thread suggested that the it might be in the spirit of the game if there was a way to bypass it that required a great deal of work (high level skills, a standing of 9 or higher, etc). Personally I support this idea, as it makes it more profitable to players willing ot put the time in, and cuts into big alliances ability to dictate price.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:11:00 -
[45] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:The reason that goons are getting the blame is partially due to some things being said by EoG and by being the most prominent supporters of it, who also conveniently stand to make the most isk off high sec getting taxed.
I still don't understand why you think goons stand to make the most isk off the PI tax. I would be honestly shocked if any 0.0 alliance (other than PL, maybe TEST) has less investment in PI than we do.
Our membership finds it boring and **** and mostly don't bother with it, in part because it is boring and ****, also in part because you make more money off running complexes and that uses PvP skills that we generally want to train to have fun, rather than requiring that you spend a couple weeks training otherwise useless PI skills to run a robotics farm, or whatever ends up being the most profitable design once prices stabilize.
If anyone stands to gain the most it's probably the Russians. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:28:00 -
[46] - Quote
FastJack316 wrote: I still don't understand why you think goons stand to make the most isk off the PI tax. I would be honestly shocked if any 0.0 alliance (other than PL, maybe TEST) has less investment in PI than we do.
Our membership finds it boring and **** and mostly don't bother with it, in part because it is boring and ****, also in part because you make more money off running complexes and that uses PvP skills that we generally want to train to have fun, rather than requiring that you spend a couple weeks training otherwise useless PI skills to run a robotics farm, or whatever ends up being the most profitable design once prices stabilize.
If anyone stands to gain the most it's probably the Russians.
Fastjack, according to certain sources within your own alliance, the brass feel that moon goo, goonswarms primary source of alliance income, will be nerfed.
Since goons currently hold one of the largest nullsec empires, their ability to turn that simple fact into a unstoppable economic juggernaut cannot be dismissed. Given the number of planets you control, there is a very real possibility, given the relative disunity and disinterest of your opposition, that goonswarm could dictate PI prices, and, from there, T2 prices as a whole, through the simple expedient of flooding the market to drive competitors out of business.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:38:00 -
[47] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Fastjack, according to certain sources within your own alliance, the brass feel that moon goo, goonswarms primary source of alliance income, will be nerfed.
Since goons currently hold one of the largest nullsec empires, their ability to turn that simple fact into a unstoppable economic juggernaut cannot be dismissed. Given the number of planets you control, there is a very real possibility, given the relative disunity and disinterest of your opposition, that goonswarm could dictate PI prices, and, from there, T2 prices as a whole, through the simple expedient of flooding the market to drive competitors out of business.
Well yes, actually. I just said that myself, I'm sure tech will be nerfed because it should be. It will not be nerfed out of existence, and our Alliance takes the income from more than just tech moons, so I have no doubt that it will continue to be far more important than PI.
However you seem to be under the mistaken assumptions that
1) a single character can PI on hundreds of planets somehow to take advantage of all our space, or possibly that there is a cap on how many people can PI a single planet 2) we're the biggest alliance in 0.0 3) we're the richest alliance in 0.0 4) we could somehow insulate ourselves from the impact of PI taxes on T2 production despite nullsec and WH pvp being the consumer base for T2 products, possibly out of a mistaken belief that we build all our own modules rather than buying most of them in Jita the same as everyone else
None of these are true. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 06:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Fastjack, I know goons hold more solar systems with planets then anyone else. as far as manpower or wealth,well, from an interesting discussion I had a bit ago, the directorate is doing it wrong.
On item 4) I know you're buying in empire. I am, after all, selling it to you and shipping it to you on occasion. However, if you did build your own, then, yes, you would insulate yourselves quite easily.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 07:25:00 -
[49] - Quote
No, apparently you don't actually no much at all about 0.0 if you think the goons control anywhere near the largest number of planetary systems. This is a straight up simple matter of numbers that you could confirm for yourself if you cared to.
I'm not sure if your determined ignorance of 0.0 or your determined ignorance of the mechanics of PI that is less productive in this discussion, but you should go fix them. |
Bloody Wench
151
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 13:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
Without turning this into yet another goon thread.
Cygnet, I think you're overestimating goons interest in this. PI is incredibly boring, nothing goes boom, and while it seems that there may indeed be 'tears to be had', they aren't really in the style that goons enjoy. |
|
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 13:29:00 -
[51] - Quote
Cygnet, grownups are talking. Fastjack explained quite nicely why null sec PI isn't going to be a windfall for Goons (at least isk-wise, tear-wise might be a different story). |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 13:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
Come on now, guys, everyone knows goons are fat neckbearded OCD people who like to do nothing but sit and click in space.
It's literally the only thing we know how to do. |
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:48:00 -
[53] - Quote
Alliances won't make money off taxing poco's. They will make money by not having to pay *any* tax on their poco's.
Stop being dense. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:52:00 -
[54] - Quote
Vigdis Thorisdottir wrote:Alliances won't make money off taxing poco's. They will make money by not having to pay *any* tax on their poco's.
Stop being dense.
It's been goons party line, that they're deliberately not making any money off it by setting tax at 15%. Personally, I find the story hard to swallow.
Tasko Pal wrote:Cygnet, grownups are talking. Fastjack explained quite nicely why null sec PI isn't going to be a windfall for Goons (at least isk-wise, tear-wise might be a different story).
Tasko, fastjack did nothing of the sort. He just sat there and misrepresented what I said, and then tried to dodge the subject by attacking my knowledge of 0.0. You know, the basic way to try an dodge an issue when you know real answers would hang you out to dry? Just counting the systems goons claim sov in doesn't give you the whole picture, which is what I've been talking about. Goons project power far beyond that.
If this wasn't a big moneymaker for them, then goons wouldn't turn up in every thread about it attacking the posters that dislike the current approach. After all, no other alliance is doing so on such a scale and with such diligence, so goons must have an angle. You don't work it this hard without a reason
Bloody Wench wrote:Without turning this into yet another goon thread. Cygnet, I think you're overestimating goons interest in this. PI is incredibly boring, nothing goes boom, and while it seems that there may indeed be 'tears to be had', they aren't really in the style that goons enjoy.
As I said, goons are pushing hard in the forums and trying to derail or discredit any opposition to it. To me, that smells like rat.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:58:00 -
[55] - Quote
By all means, quit PI in a huff over the tax increase while muttering about the "ebul goonies", all it means is more isk for me when I do sell my PI stuff. vOv |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:08:00 -
[56] - Quote
Wow, very condescending, and clueless, of you.
As I've said Zim, I'm making a killing on it, it's just bad for the game. It damages the market in the long run and consolidates too much power over the market in the hands of a very few people. This leads to the sort of stagnation that UO underwent.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
Yeah, except it doesn't. It's spreading extraction and profit across more people than moons have, and EVE didn't die because of them, now did it? |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 21:05:00 -
[58] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Tasko, fastjack did nothing of the sort. He just sat there and misrepresented what I said, and then tried to dodge the subject by attacking my knowledge of 0.0. You know, the basic way to try an dodge an issue when you know real answers would hang you out to dry? Just counting the systems goons claim sov in doesn't give you the whole picture, which is what I've been talking about. Goons project power far beyond that.
No I started attacking your knowledge of 0.0 when you ignored my actual response to you to continue your paranoid rantings.
FastJack316 wrote:
However you seem to be under the mistaken assumptions that
1) a single character can PI on hundreds of planets somehow to take advantage of all our space, or possibly that there is a cap on how many people can PI a single planet 2) we're the biggest alliance in 0.0 3) we're the richest alliance in 0.0 4) we could somehow insulate ourselves from the impact of PI taxes on T2 production despite nullsec and WH pvp being the consumer base for T2 products, possibly out of a mistaken belief that we build all our own modules rather than buying most of them in Jita the same as everyone else
None of these are true.
If you're willing to breakdown what possible advantage there is to having 500 planets over 50 planets to an alliance of any size in your bizzare universe? Because here in reality the game mechanics are that planetary productivity for extraction is so high in 0.0 that there is incredibly minimal negative effects from having hundreds of people doing PI on the same planet, which is why those of us who do PI in 0.0 use the same handful of systems with the best/rarest planetary set ups. If we get another thousand characters doing PI we don't need to conquer another thousand planets, they just use the same ones. (it is also silly to think that we could produce all our own T2 modules with the huge relative disadvantage 0.0 production has compared to hisec, prices would have to absolutely skyrocket to make it sensible, but that's not really on topic)
POCOs actually further disincentivize spreading out our PI since you have to put the custom's offices up.
As for why we'd pay 15% POCO taxes, that's obvious if you've ever actually bothered to read a post from The Mittani: we're space communism here. The government sticks its hose in our pockets in order to shower us in free ships. If the POCO taxes turn out half as much as ratting taxes, it'll be enough to double the ice interdiction/roll out an entirely new fleet doctrine/host a capital ship thunderdome |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 02:04:00 -
[59] - Quote
Vigdis Thorisdottir wrote:Alliances won't make money off taxing poco's. They will make money by not having to pay *any* tax on their poco's.
Stop being dense.
They could do both in low-sec. 0% taxes for corp/alliance members. MASSIVE taxes for everyone else. Assuming they could hold them of course. So bring on the alliance dominated PI, and of course, pirates collecting everyones tears.
I guess high-sec taxes would seem nicer after that!
|
Menrith Hadel
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 03:09:00 -
[60] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:If this wasn't a big moneymaker for them, then goons wouldn't turn up in every thread about it attacking the posters that dislike the current approach. After all, no other alliance is doing so on such a scale and with such diligence, so goons must have an angle. You don't work it this hard without a reason We also strongly support the fluoridation of tapwater as a means of mind control. |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 10:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
FastJack316 wrote: If you're willing to breakdown what possible advantage there is to having 500 planets over 50 planets to an alliance of any size in your bizzare universe? Because here in reality the game mechanics are that planetary productivity for extraction is so high in 0.0 that there is incredibly minimal negative effects from having hundreds of people doing PI on the same planet, which is why those of us who do PI in 0.0 use the same handful of systems with the best/rarest planetary set ups. If we get another thousand characters doing PI we don't need to conquer another thousand planets, they just use the same ones. (it is also silly to think that we could produce all our own T2 modules with the huge relative disadvantage 0.0 production has compared to hisec, prices would have to absolutely skyrocket to make it sensible, but that's not really on topic)
Because if you read the other parts of the PI change, it's now possible to run more extraction heads per user then it was before due to the increase in bandwidth for transport on planet per level. Not having to upgrade means more power and CPU is available for other uses, meaning that each individual user is going to be able to suck up a greater percentage of the daily output. That minimal effect just got larger.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 11:55:00 -
[62] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Tasko Pal wrote:Cygnet, grownups are talking. Fastjack explained quite nicely why null sec PI isn't going to be a windfall for Goons (at least isk-wise, tear-wise might be a different story). Tasko, fastjack did nothing of the sort. He just sat there and misrepresented what I said, and then tried to dodge the subject by attacking my knowledge of 0.0. You know, the basic way to try an dodge an issue when you know real answers would hang you out to dry? Just counting the systems goons claim sov in doesn't give you the whole picture, which is what I've been talking about. Goons project power far beyond that. If this wasn't a big moneymaker for them, then goons wouldn't turn up in every thread about it attacking the posters that dislike the current approach. After all, no other alliance is doing so on such a scale and with such diligence, so goons must have an angle. You don't work it this hard without a reason.
Fastjack did just that in his very first post in this thread. Please read this stuff or please shut up. I might add that you may have a clue about 0.0, but when you talked about low sec in another thread, it was pretty clear you didn't have a clue.
And you haven't explained why the Goons have any issues to dodge. If they really wanted as an alliance this PI change, then why wouldn't they say so? There are no consequences to telling the world that they got what they wanted.
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
213
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 12:03:00 -
[63] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Because if you read the other parts of the PI change, it's now possible to run more extraction heads per user then it was before due to the increase in bandwidth for transport on planet per level. Not having to upgrade means more power and CPU is available for other uses, meaning that each individual user is going to be able to suck up a greater percentage of the daily output. That minimal effect just got larger. I don't know what you used it for, but I used it to make the extraction more flexible, i.e. I can move the extraction pin over a wider area of the planet before tearing down everything and starting on the fun process of migrating the entire PI structure group because the hotspot moved. |
Bloody Wench
159
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 13:04:00 -
[64] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Because if you read the other parts of the PI change, it's now possible to run more extraction heads per user then it was before due to the increase in bandwidth for transport on planet per level. Not having to upgrade means more power and CPU is available for other uses, meaning that each individual user is going to be able to suck up a greater percentage of the daily output. That minimal effect just got larger.
Not in Wh / 00 it doesn't. 1 ECU pulls so much material that there is zero reason to attempt to put another down. You couldn't process it, you just simply can't do it. Mostly I run between 6 and 8 factories just to keep up with 1-10 head ECU that will happily chug along for weeks on end at or about 36-45k an hour.
Your position is that of a purely hisec prospective, and only holds when extraction levels are around 10-12k an hour. As in 2 factories per full 10 head ECU. Outside of Hisec, extraction rates are that you're going to need a mimimum of 6 factories running all the time just to keep up. Using multiple ECU where the extraction rates aren't pathetic just doesn't work.
So the extra link bandwidth will go purely to longer main lines where the operator can then hit better locations just by moving the ECU further from the first storage location. It certainly wont allow for another wasted ECU.
I was giving you a fair bit of leeway with your comments but it's become plainly clear you have no experience outside of Hisec in these matters. |
Dragokenshin1
Dark Matter Systems
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 18:42:00 -
[65] - Quote
People must have personality and character to assume their options!
If you all hate people who live in High Sec, please close it NOW!!!! |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
123
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 18:54:00 -
[66] - Quote
All the price hikes are simply going to be passed on the the end consumer.
I saw that Hammerhead II's went from around 500,000 to around 600,000 per unit over the weekend. Fun staff. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:05:00 -
[67] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote: Not in Wh / 00 it doesn't. 1 ECU pulls so much material that there is zero reason to attempt to put another down. You couldn't process it, you just simply can't do it. Mostly I run between 6 and 8 factories just to keep up with 1-10 head ECU that will happily chug along for weeks on end at or about 36-45k an hour.
Your position is that of a purely hisec prospective, and only holds when extraction levels are around 10-12k an hour. As in 2 factories per full 10 head ECU. Outside of Hisec, extraction rates are that you're going to need a mimimum of 6 factories running all the time just to keep up. Using multiple ECU where the extraction rates aren't pathetic just doesn't work.
So the extra link bandwidth will go purely to longer main lines where the operator can then hit better locations just by moving the ECU further from the first storage location. It certainly wont allow for another wasted ECU.
I was giving you a fair bit of leeway with your comments but it's become plainly clear you have no experience outside of Hisec in these matters.
Why would you try to do it all on the same world?
What we were doing was using one planet as a factory for every two planets that were extracting. Dump the p0 in a corp hanger array and swap off to a corp mate who has a factory on the same world you're extracting from. This gives you way more then 6-8 factories to work with, and you can throttle production to suit your needs.
Trying to run the whole chain on a single world is only more profitable with high sec PI.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
225
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:07:00 -
[68] - Quote
Wait, p0? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:13:00 -
[69] - Quote
Raw extracted materials. In this case, it's more effective to focus the planet entirely on extracting every last drop you can, and then import it into a planet expressly set up to process everything.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Wibla
Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:18:00 -
[70] - Quote
Export P0? Did your mom drop you on your head as a baby? CEO Tactical Narcotics Team |
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
225
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:18:00 -
[71] - Quote
Yes, I know p0 are the raw materials, but that's a pretty dumb thing to do, post PI update doubly so.
I was actually just thinking "well, this explains a few things", I just needed confirmation. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:29:00 -
[72] - Quote
*shakes head* Stop and use your brain, if you're paying 0 for it, it makes sense, because it lets you process even more materials then you could previously.
Admittedly, it does require a team to do it, but, hey, you guys have been screaming how important teamwork is.
Two guys do nothing but extract while the third manages build orders. Sort of like two barges and an orca.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
225
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:46:00 -
[73] - Quote
So what you're saying is, you're extracting as much p0 as you can, extracting and paying tax on that, hauling that to factory planets, importing and paying tax on that, then going how far up the chain?
Have you done the math on what you're paying in taxes? Because from my napkin math, what you're doing when exporting p0 is paying 1500 isk to export enough p0 to make 20 p1, and then you're importing that at 750 isk pr unit, giving a cost of 2250 isk pr 20 units of p1 that you make. Compare that to what you'd get if you export p1, where 20 units of p1 would cost you 1000 isk. This is all assuming you're doing this in hisec.
Add to that the fact that you're also ending up having to do exports at least once a day, vs once every 4 days or so with p1, and I've no problem with seeing why you're so up in arms over the PI changes, you're literally doing it the worst way imaginable. |
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 16:07:00 -
[74] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:So what you're saying is, you're extracting as much p0 as you can, extracting and paying tax on that, hauling that to factory planets, importing and paying tax on that, then going how far up the chain?
Underlined the misunderstanding - if she owns the POCO(s), she pays ZERO tax on export/import. In that case, strip-mining and exporting the raw resources makes sense. |
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 16:08:00 -
[75] - Quote
yay, d00bllep0st |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
447
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 18:46:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ninyania alCladdyth wrote: Underlined the misunderstanding - if she owns the POCO(s), she pays ZERO tax on export/import. In that case, strip-mining and exporting the raw resources makes sense.
Well, other then the issue that you're spending a lot more time hauling due to the sheer bulk of P0 over P1.
One batch of P0 is 30 m3, which turns into 7.6 m3 when processed into P1. Almost a 4x reduction in volume.
Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days? |
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 18:59:00 -
[77] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:[Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days? Completely different question.
I was simply speaking to the "insane amount of excise tax" that would/would not be paid, not the "insane amount of manual labor" that would be required. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 18:59:00 -
[78] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:*shakes head* Stop and use your brain, if you're paying 0 for it, it makes sense, because it lets you process even more materials then you could previously.
Admittedly, it does require a team to do it, but, hey, you guys have been screaming how important teamwork is.
Two guys do nothing but extract while the third manages build orders. Sort of like two barges and an orca.
A "typical" extraction planet would be 1 ECU, 10 Ext Heads, 8 or 9 Basic Factories and launchpad?
So over 3 planets you end up with 24-27 factories and 3 ECU with 10 heads each.
Your idea is to get 4 ECU on 2 planets as "strip miners" then somehow transfer that huge wad of raw materials to a third planet with 22 Basic Factories?
Looks like a formula for excess P0 and Less P1 in the long run to me, as well as a lot more logistics work.
Additionally, a decent spot will fill a launchpad in under 24 hours, requiring way more intervention to properly maintain the system.
So
More P0 - check More P1 - nope More Labor - check More Intervention - check
Looks like a losing idea to me. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
228
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 19:14:00 -
[79] - Quote
Ninyania alCladdyth wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:[Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days? Completely different question. I was simply speaking to the "insane amount of excise tax" that would/would not be paid, not the "insane amount of manual labor" that would be required. Well, the excess tax was just the easiest to look at, if he's actually in lowsec or nullsec with their own POCO, then we're still left with the insane amount of hauling that this setup requires, and they're apparently effectively dedicating one char to do the actual manufacturing process, instead of having him extract as well. It's been a long while since I did try out the whole factory planet thing in hisec, starting with p0. Turned out it was literally a fucktonne of work for very little return.
As to the typical extraction planet, I used to do 1 ECU, 10 extraction heads, 1 storage pin, one launch pad and as many basic factories as I could shoehorn in. Now that I'm doing p0 to p2 as a test, I'm doing 2 ECUs with 3-5 heads each, 1 storage pin, 3-4 basic and 3-4 advanced, and 1 launchpad. I'm sacrificing some efficiency to separate the p0 from p1/p2. In fact, I'm contemplating making the storage pad a launchpad just for the 10k m3 storage, but I'm evaluating the need for storage capacity vs how quickly the extractors go below the basic factories' appetite before I reset them. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 19:42:00 -
[80] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Ninyania alCladdyth wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:[Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days? Completely different question. I was simply speaking to the "insane amount of excise tax" that would/would not be paid, not the "insane amount of manual labor" that would be required. Well, the excess tax was just the easiest to look at, if he's actually in lowsec or nullsec with their own POCO, then we're still left with the insane amount of hauling that this setup requires, and they're apparently effectively dedicating one char to do the actual manufacturing process, instead of having him extract as well. It's been a long while since I did try out the whole factory planet thing in hisec, starting with p0. Turned out it was literally a fucktonne of work for very little return. As to the typical extraction planet, I used to do 1 ECU, 10 extraction heads, 1 storage pin, one launch pad and as many basic factories as I could shoehorn in. Now that I'm doing p0 to p2 as a test, I'm doing 2 ECUs with 3-5 heads each, 1 storage pin, 3-4 basic and 3-4 advanced, and 1 launchpad. I'm sacrificing some efficiency to separate the p0 from p1/p2. In fact, I'm contemplating making the storage pad a launchpad just for the 10k m3 storage, but I'm evaluating the need for storage capacity vs how quickly the extractors go below the basic factories' appetite before I reset them.
With CPU usually being rather abundant on extraction planets, a LP is almost always preferable to a SF.
|
|
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 19:56:00 -
[81] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:So what you're saying is, you're extracting as much p0 as you can, extracting and paying tax on that, hauling that to factory planets, importing and paying tax on that, then going how far up the chain?
You're right, exporting raw is the most stupid thing to do, if you pay taxes.
She saids she's paying 0, i suppose this means she has no taxes, so it makes sense.
You can have a refining planet and change the schematics according to what you have in storage. |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 20:02:00 -
[82] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:A "typical" extraction planet would be 1 ECU, 10 Ext Heads, 8 or 9 Basic Factories and launchpad?
EXTRACT+P1 |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 20:17:00 -
[83] - Quote
Esunisen wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:A "typical" extraction planet would be 1 ECU, 10 Ext Heads, 8 or 9 Basic Factories and launchpad?
EXTRACT+P1
You don't seem top be balanced.
I can get more Basic Factories on an extraction planet, but I put 8 and use the excess Power and CPU to extend the range of the "base" to the ECU to cover more area.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 23:32:00 -
[84] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:
So over 3 planets you end up with 24-27 factories and 3 ECU with 10 heads each.
Your idea is to get 4 ECU on 2 planets as "strip miners" then somehow transfer that huge wad of raw materials to a third planet with 22 Basic Factories?
Looks like a formula for excess P0 and Less P1 in the long run to me, as well as a lot more logistics work.
Looks like a losing idea to me.
Actually across three planets it would be 12 ECU and 66 odd foundries, assuming that we're only going up one level.
Labor intensive, sure. But has some hefty productivity.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 01:04:00 -
[85] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:You don't seem to be balanced, you have factories sitting idle.
When screenshot was taken, extrators were stopped for more than 4 hours, with an almost depleted deposit. Sometimes Basic Factories run 24/7, well, in null they would. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 04:41:00 -
[86] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:
So over 3 planets you end up with 24-27 factories and 3 ECU with 10 heads each.
Your idea is to get 4 ECU on 2 planets as "strip miners" then somehow transfer that huge wad of raw materials to a third planet with 22 Basic Factories?
Looks like a formula for excess P0 and Less P1 in the long run to me, as well as a lot more logistics work.
Looks like a losing idea to me.
Actually across three planets it would be 12 ECU and 66 odd foundries, assuming that we're only going up one level. Labor intensive, sure. But has some hefty productivity.
Except now you are talking 9 planets or colonies, or whatever the hell you want to call them. I didn't say three accounts on three planets each, I said on three planets and I meant 3 installations. Love how you twist **** around to try to prove a point when you can't really prove the point.
Your way of two strip mining colonies and 1 factory colony will not yield more P1 product in the long haul and will take more effort. I don't see how that's a winning solution. Simply multiplying it by three to get nine colonies does not magicially make it smarter.
On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive? |
Bahr Cudas
Beta Ray Bill
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 05:17:00 -
[87] - Quote
Brothar Rey wrote:I don't get it.
I paid about 1.2m isk in taxes to export 1620 of a certain POS fuel off a high-sec factory planet of mine. By the looks of it, I'm able to sell it for like 35-40 times that amount. For less then 10 minutes of PI clicking every 2.5 days.
I fail to see the complaints here. People are still making isk from PI.
Sshhhhhh!! Haha Don't explain it to them. It'll be more business for us when they pack up and leave town. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
234
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 08:17:00 -
[88] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive? I was suspecting this would be the case, especially if we can only fit one ECU. I'm not sure if you can actually manage to fit 2 ECUs and 1 or 2 LPs, but I couldn't be arsed to do the maths, since it implied going in somewhere and testing the theory.
It's still rather dumb, though. From my perspective it still leaves you so hung up on exporting and importing a lot of materials at least once a day. And if it's in nullsec/lowsec, all it takes is for someone to camp the system/COs for a few days for their profits to go to ****, whereas if you extract to f.ex p2, you can go what looks like at least a week before you have to export anything.
vOv |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 13:36:00 -
[89] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive? I was suspecting this would be the case, especially if we can only fit one ECU. I'm not sure if you can actually manage to fit 2 ECUs and 1 or 2 LPs, but I couldn't be arsed to do the maths, since it implied going in somewhere and testing the theory. It's still rather dumb, though. From my perspective it still leaves you so hung up on exporting and importing a lot of materials at least once a day. And if it's in nullsec/lowsec, all it takes is for someone to camp the system/COs for a few days for their profits to go to ****, whereas if you extract to f.ex p2, you can go what looks like at least a week before you have to export anything. vOv Edit: Obviously, it should be added that extracting to p2 means two ECUs, which again means vastly reduced throughput, so if you have no taxes and just want to extract as much as possible, then I suppose p1'll be the better choice, I don't know. It's certainly better than p0, even if only just looking at the hilarious amount of work involved in exporting the p0 goo. I'm not doing the napkin work on it as I do have taxes to deal with, and not having to export more than once a week or two suits me just fine for a passive income that takes me about 5 minutes every second day to keep running after I've stabilized the planet setups.
The issue, in terms of efficiency, is that the ECU unit is a Power pig and consumes almost a third of the Power of a ECU and 10 Head system (2600 of the 8100 total).
This makes it very hard to get to the 11th extractor head and not gimp the factories.
In the "Old System" it was easier to do cool things like make P2 on a single planet. Now with the extreme Power required of the ECU it is not as easy to do things like that. It can be done, but you sacrifice total capacity/output for convenience.
There are many ways to "optimize" a PI production system. I choose to optimize mine around least time needed to run it. Which means minimizing hauling and reseting extractors. I know others that optimize around total output and spend more time to accomplish the extra gains. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
242
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 14:53:00 -
[90] - Quote
Yeah, I'm currently experimenting with 2 ECUs with 2-4 heads each, 3-4 basic for each type and 3-4 advanced (depending on whether or not I have excess p1/p0 I want to burn through). It's not the speediest system, but it's a hell of a lot less hassle than what it would be if I went in hard-core for p0 extraction.
Actually, come to think of it, just how quickly would one LP fill up with p0 if you could run two full ECUs? It has to suck up space something fierce. |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:37:00 -
[91] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:
Except now you are talking 9 planets or colonies, or whatever the hell you want to call them. I didn't say three accounts on three planets each, I said on three planets and I meant 3 installations. Love how you twist **** around to try to prove a point when you can't really prove the point.
Your way of two strip mining colonies and 1 factory colony will not yield more P1 product in the long haul and will take more effort. I don't see how that's a winning solution. Simply multiplying it by three to get nine colonies does not magicially make it smarter.
On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive?
Hundo, you said three planets, not three colonies, which is a horse of a different color. And, bluntly, I'm not the one twisting ****.
BTW: I was using your set up that you listed (22).
Mine does 25 (admittedly by leaving off a launch pad, necessitating more of that unwelcome 'work')
Meaning that three factory worlds do 75 factories. Granted, again, high level of labor for a small increase, but the more people involved the bigger the advantage gets. We're currently working with three people. Now factor in the difference between the two with 9 people doing it:
18 factories. Or the better part of a whole planet worth of production.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
245
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:42:00 -
[92] - Quote
And how long until you burn out? |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 00:49:00 -
[93] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:
Except now you are talking 9 planets or colonies, or whatever the hell you want to call them. I didn't say three accounts on three planets each, I said on three planets and I meant 3 installations. Love how you twist **** around to try to prove a point when you can't really prove the point.
Your way of two strip mining colonies and 1 factory colony will not yield more P1 product in the long haul and will take more effort. I don't see how that's a winning solution. Simply multiplying it by three to get nine colonies does not magicially make it smarter.
On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive?
Hundo, you said three planets, not three colonies, which is a horse of a different color. And, bluntly, I'm not the one twisting ****. BTW: I was using your set up that you listed (22). Mine does 25 (admittedly by leaving off a launch pad, necessitating more of that unwelcome 'work') Meaning that three factory worlds do 75 factories. Granted, again, high level of labor for a small increase, but the more people involved the bigger the advantage gets. We're currently working with three people. Now factor in the difference between the two with 9 people doing it: 18 factories. Or the better part of a whole planet worth of production.
99 out of 100 people reading my original post would know I was talking about 3 colonies, because the numbers quoted were 3 times the single "planet" I quoted, yet you somehow (being the 1) somehow took it to mean 9 colonies.
And how are you supplying and storing the finished goods from you factories with no launchpad? Hard to setup much of a system with no input and the command center as the only output.
And what magic Basic Factory or Command Centers are you using? In the EVE I play at level 5 skills I get 19000 power and each Basic Factory takes 800. I would love to see the world where you get 25 Basic Factories in one colony. (For those 1 out of 100 who thought I originally meant 9 planets, 25 * 800 = 20,000, which is a number that is greater than 19,000, thereby rendering it impossible to have 25 basic factories on a single colony)
Your stories of such a great and productive way to use strip mining planets and a P0 to P1 factory planet just keep getting better and better. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 14:23:00 -
[94] - Quote
It appears there is egg on my tie, as (having put 25 factories on a single world and a LP) I went back and checked, and realized that they were not basics, but advanced. Whoops.
So, I'll simply have to adjust my ratio by having one more planet be a factory and one less be a strip mine. Poof, +8 factories over your model with nine colonies. Huh, with corrected math, my point still stands.
Re the rest of it, no, you were unclear because you were talking three planets. What is clear, however, is that you are a total *******.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
248
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 14:27:00 -
[95] - Quote
Again, how long until you burn out?
Edit: And how much extra does all this work give you pr day, if you estimated the value in isk? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 22:29:00 -
[96] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Again, how long until you burn out?
Edit: And how much extra does all this work give you pr day, if you estimated the value in isk?
How long till you burn out on anything in this game? Varies from person to person. I actually enjoy refueling POS, one of the most tedious jobs in the game. I haven't burned out on it yet. So, who knows.
As far as profit: depends on what you're making and how much volume we're talking. 3 people make 10% more, roughly. As far as actual isk, depends on the number of people and the volumes you're dealing in.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 23:03:00 -
[97] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:It appears there is egg on my tie, as (having put 25 factories on a single world and a LP) I went back and checked, and realized that they were not basics, but advanced. Whoops.
So, I'll simply have to adjust my ratio by having one more planet be a factory and one less be a strip mine. Poof, +8 factories over your model with nine colonies. Huh, with corrected math, my point still stands.
Re the rest of it, no, you were unclear because you were talking three planets. What is clear, however, is that you are a total *******.
Yes I am a total ******* for calling bullshit, bullshit.
So I guess we will all just bow to your system that takes 50 times the effort to yield, at most, 10% more. Such productivity.
Oh wait, productivity is defined as "amount produced over effort to produce"
So you produce 110% of my system with easily 10 times the effort. So your system is 11% as productive as mine.
I'll stick with my way. |
Gorongo Frostfyr
Shimohi Heavy Industries
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 00:50:00 -
[98] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:Just think about how many imports/exports you can do for 600M [...] ~4400 p4 products. done in 2 months. oohooo only 300mil taxes per month. thanks ccp |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 02:14:00 -
[99] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote: Yes I am a total ******* for calling bullshit, bullshit.
So I guess we will all just bow to your system that takes 50 times the effort to yield, at most, 10% more. Such productivity.
Oh wait, productivity is defined as "amount produced over effort to produce"
So you produce 110% of my system with easily 10 times the effort. So your system is 11% as productive as mine.
Hundo, how much effort you think any one person is putting in? OMG once a day I have to get in my ship and fly once around the system I live in. Oh, the HORROR. I might have to UNDOCK. You might throw a lot of **** in my face, Hundo, but you have '4-4' written across you large. Looks to me like a lot less effort than, say, mining or running missions or hot dropping caps on someone.
'It's too much work! I'll only make 10% more and have to... ugh... fly in space for a WHOLE HOUR!'
I might point out, then, by that logic, the only profitable thing to do in all of EvE is run scams in Jita all day long.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 03:18:00 -
[100] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Hundo Kay wrote: Yes I am a total ******* for calling bullshit, bullshit.
So I guess we will all just bow to your system that takes 50 times the effort to yield, at most, 10% more. Such productivity.
Oh wait, productivity is defined as "amount produced over effort to produce"
So you produce 110% of my system with easily 10 times the effort. So your system is 11% as productive as mine.
Hundo, how much effort you think any one person is putting in? OMG once a day I have to get in my ship and fly once around the system I live in. Oh, the HORROR. I might have to UNDOCK. You might throw a lot of **** in my face, Hundo, but you have '4-4' written across you large. Looks to me like a lot less effort than, say, mining or running missions or hot dropping caps on someone. 'It's too much work! I'll only make 10% more and have to... ugh... fly in space for a WHOLE HOUR!' I might point out, then, by that logic, the only profitable thing to do in all of EvE is run scams in Jita all day long.
Its so fun to debate someone who basicially makes your point for you.
Yes, your system sucks when you HAVE to fly around for an hour a day to maintain it, versus a well setup one that I have to fly around once a week for an hour to maintain.
In fact you need to log in at least once a day, because a decent ECU setup will yield more then the 1M P0 your spaceport will hold.
And how you get from me pointing out you seem to know very little about PI and showing your system is not extremely productive, to me not wanting to put effort into anything just continues to make you look stupid.
Where in any post have I mentioned hating to undock (which is extremely funny since I mainly do my PI in W-Space and there are no docks) or not putting effort into running an effiecient and effective PI system.
Seriously, you continue to try to move the conversation away from the debate at hand.
A PI system relying on P0 Strip Mining planets and P0 to P1 factory planets is a bad idea. You have continued to prove that for us with your attempt to argue for it. But by all means if you want to spend your time ineffiecently hauling P0 products all over your system then go for it. Just don't try to argue its a good idea. Its not.
And if you want to continue to sling poo because you can't argue on facts, go ahead. I enjoy you making my points for me. |
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Justin Credulent
Perkone Caldari State
94
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 23:50:00 -
[101] - Quote
I love when the privileged cry about how hard they have it. Null-Sec needs to HTFU and stop crying to CCP. If null-sec wants PvP, they need to stop being carebears and start fighting eachother - after years of bot-mining, they have the ships! |
Celery Man
Talocan Mining And Industrial Talocan United
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 07:02:00 -
[102] - Quote
Esunisen wrote:Poor you, you don't have to pay taxes
Poor you, you have to live in Hisec :) |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
34
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 08:48:00 -
[103] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:Lets say you spend 120M on taxes a month for your Hisec PI adventures, unlikely, but lets just say.
In 5 months time, 150 days, if I haven't had any of the POCOs blown up then we'll be even. Every day after those 5 months, sure I'll be pulling ahead, until they do get blown up. Then for each one that goes down it puts me a month behind again.
My choice.
I love the way you throw that at me. You say it like you have no choice. CCP Hillmar standing behind you with a .45 is he?
I don't normally find it worth my time to berrate people on the interwebs, however this time. The shear volume of retardation permeating the forums is staggering.
Hisec PI isn't going to lose money. I might, Hisec won't. EU is up to 15k a unit right now. Robotics over 86k.
Let me dredge up this tired cliche just one more time.
I'm going to outlay several billion ISK in infrastructure, in an environment where at any tick of the clock it can all be lost. This affords me the opportunity to make 4-5 times the quantity of PI product that hisec does, and pay no tax on it.
Hisec however your outlay is in the tens of millions isk, and nobody can take it away from you.
As much as it displeases me to say it, there is your risk vs reward. You ante up nothing but expect so much in return.
I hope that at this point you see the overwhelming disparity, and cease your bellyaching.
Well I pay 57 mill a week in high sec Taxs now per toon. I have 2 accounts and 3 toons on each so thats 57 mil times 6 is 342 mil a week for me on PI in High Sec. So thats 228 mil a month per toon so 228 mil times 6 is 1.3 bill ruffly a Month.
Though personly I never minded and was only pissed becouse of bad Comunication from CCP it was not even in the patch notes.
Just like in real life I passed the taxs on to the customer. So it changes nothing for me. It will over time raise all produces that ether need a POS running or use PI in it's manufacutering.
So that means Tech 2 just got double wammied by this twice. Once when the moon goo is mined and refined and again when it's manufacured. |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
34
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 09:12:00 -
[104] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:It would seem that time is up on the discussion of this matter. As per this statementQuote: taxes for concord and interbus customs stations are working correctly reported by CCP Guard | 2011.12.01 17:18:43 | NEW
We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirmed that the tax rates match the design specifications. Please read this post for more information about the new tax rate on NPC Custom Offices.
I could say something along the lines of neener neener the free ride is over, but that would be juvenile.
Every bodys free ride is over yours too Bloody. You will pay the taxs every time you buy anything that need a POS running or any PI in it's making.
No matter if you yourself are paying any taxs on your PI or not. |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
34
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 10:03:00 -
[105] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:The reason that goons are getting the blame is partially due to some things being said by EoG and by being the most prominent supporters of it, who also conveniently stand to make the most isk off high sec getting taxed.
AS fa as an isk sink goes, someone in another thread suggested that the it might be in the spirit of the game if there was a way to bypass it that required a great deal of work (high level skills, a standing of 9 or higher, etc). Personally I support this idea, as it makes it more profitable to players willing ot put the time in, and cuts into big alliances ability to dictate price.
I like that ideal just like refining taxs in stations. It do's kind of fit though I think few will support it.
I would though. It matters not ether way for me I will make good isk still.
It's just with a way around the taxs we can all keep Tech 2 prices down.
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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
37
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 14:39:00 -
[106] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote: Yes, your system sucks when you HAVE to fly around for an hour a day to maintain it, versus a well setup one that I have to fly around once a week for an hour to maintain.
In fact you need to log in at least once a day, because a decent ECU setup will yield more then the 1M P0 your spaceport will hold.
And how you get from me pointing out you seem to know very little about PI and showing your system is not extremely productive, to me not wanting to put effort into anything just continues to make you look stupid.
Because I don't mind working hard for my bottom line. You do realize you're talking to one of those people that will slow boat all the way from 4C-B7X to to the middle of Great Wildlands for 20m isk, right?
Hundo Kay wrote: A PI system relying on P0 Strip Mining planets and P0 to P1 factory planets is a bad idea. You have continued to prove that for us with your attempt to argue for it. But by all means if you want to spend your time ineffiecently hauling P0 products all over your system then go for it. Just don't try to argue its a good idea. Its not.
Higher yield is higher yield. Do you have to work for it? Yes. All you've proven is that you only want to deal with PI a few times a week and are willing to sacrifice output for convenience.
Sure, you can recycle junk and get mins, but you get higher output stripping an entire system of any and all asteroids every day ( or better, every two hours.)
Then again, why am I trying to explain this to you? You obviously are one of those 'least work' types, so go back to ratting and wait for your isk to be mailed to you.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Z1gy
Vindicator Corporation Strategic Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 15:18:00 -
[107] - Quote
did CCP change the tax again? coz today the p2 stuff taxes seem cheaper |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 21:02:00 -
[108] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Hundo Kay wrote: Yes, your system sucks when you HAVE to fly around for an hour a day to maintain it, versus a well setup one that I have to fly around once a week for an hour to maintain.
In fact you need to log in at least once a day, because a decent ECU setup will yield more then the 1M P0 your spaceport will hold.
And how you get from me pointing out you seem to know very little about PI and showing your system is not extremely productive, to me not wanting to put effort into anything just continues to make you look stupid.
Because I don't mind working hard for my bottom line. You do realize you're talking to one of those people that will slow boat all the way from 4C-B7X to to the middle of Great Wildlands for 20m isk, right? Hundo Kay wrote: A PI system relying on P0 Strip Mining planets and P0 to P1 factory planets is a bad idea. You have continued to prove that for us with your attempt to argue for it. But by all means if you want to spend your time ineffiecently hauling P0 products all over your system then go for it. Just don't try to argue its a good idea. Its not.
Higher yield is higher yield. Do you have to work for it? Yes. All you've proven is that you only want to deal with PI a few times a week and are willing to sacrifice output for convenience. Sure, you can recycle junk and get mins, but you get higher output stripping an entire system of any and all asteroids every day ( or better, every two hours.) Then again, why am I trying to explain this to you? You obviously are one of those 'least work' types, so go back to ratting and wait for your isk to be mailed to you.
Its your subscription, do what you want.
And yes I prefer an Isk generation system that makes 90% of the isk at 1/10th the effort.
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Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
73
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 21:40:00 -
[109] - Quote
to much isk in eve atm. just another way to funnel it out. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
275
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 22:08:00 -
[110] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Hundo, how much effort you think any one person is putting in? OMG once a day I have to get in my ship and fly once around the system I live in. Oh, the HORROR. I might have to UNDOCK. You might throw a lot of **** in my face, Hundo, but you have '4-4' written across you large. Looks to me like a lot less effort than, say, mining or running missions or hot dropping caps on someone. So, what do you do when someone figures that your system is a nice system to camp in a cloaked ship, just waiting for you to head out on your daily PI run?
I don't have to undock to collect it more than once a week or every 2 weeks, and I just have to reset the extractors every 2 days or so. This means I can wait a lot longer for someone to give me a 30 minute window than you can, and I suspect that at some point you'll lose profit because of this.
But hey, your game, you do this how you like it. vOv |
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Anela Cistine
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
95
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 22:12:00 -
[111] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Fastjack, I know goons hold more solar systems with planets then anyone else. as far as manpower or wealth,well, from an interesting discussion I had a bit ago, the directorate is doing it wrong.
On item 4) I know you're buying in empire. I am, after all, selling it to you and shipping it to you on occasion. However, if you did build your own, then, yes, you would insulate yourselves quite easily.
You are hilarious. Yes, if goonswarm could somehow turn all of our PVPers into Industrialists, we could cause major disruptions to the market. Unfortunately alliances full of industrialists don't hold space in the first place, they rent it from PVPers. Nullsec is ruled by warlords, not merchant princes.
As for "bad for the game?" I don't see it. T2 and T3 are supposed to be special. Players in general have gotten so rich, and production costs so low, that T2 everything is the required minimum standard for many basic PVP and even PVE activities. Incursion runners make fun of people who show up without faction mods and T2 rigs because "bad fits" hurt the group's isk/hour. Okay, maybe incursion runners are jerks, but in many corps/alliances showing up to PVP with a deviation from the required fit as slight as single T2 module replaced by a T1 version will deny you reimbursement for your losses. Some particularly jerksome corps/alliances will send you home or blow you up if they see you have shown up for a CTA in a T1 hull. That is insane.
If you ask me, making T2 a little less ubiquitous would be good for the game. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
257
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 22:07:00 -
[112] - Quote
Goons trolling goons |
Anela Cistine
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
97
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 11:01:00 -
[113] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Goons trolling goons
There are no trolls in goonswarm. |
Kodama Ikari
GOOD FELLAS Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 16:27:00 -
[114] - Quote
PI was never meant to be insulated from the PVP mechanics of the game. Nullsec alliances have a much higher planet/pilot ratio than empire, and the quality of the planets is better. Highsec is overpopulated with pilots and has lower quality planets. There's also alot more nullsec than there is hisec. Nullsec players SHOULD make a killing off PI. However, I'll also point out that a large proportion of nullsec players either aren't interested in PI at all, or get bored with it in two weeks. |
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