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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
6485
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Posted - 2015.02.14 06:14:38 -
[511] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:admiral root wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:If you want to argue that wardecs should follow an individual player regardless of corp affiliation, the wardeccing corp and all players should also expose all assets linked to their group as collective players by the same logic. Any alts and assets in space linked to those accounts not tied to a non-deccable NPC corp should be engageable by all participants and allies without concord reprisal for the duration of the war; neatly inventoried and catalogued for all involved to see as part of filing the wardec. Since, you know, the argument is that you should be able to go after individual players, not corporations. Translation: I don't like your idea as it might turn out to be a much-needed buff for the good of the game (though not for me personally). Allow me to extend your position to a ridiculous point, thus allowing me to prove that you're quite probably bonkers. It's only ridiculous because the mercs' industry and incursion alts will almost certainly be in NPC corps. People who like to hunt meta 0 fit retrievers with garmurs and strategic cruisers deserve no sympathy.
What makes you think anyone playing EVE deserves 'sympathy'? You're talking like there are special rules of engagement here that should be adhered to or else you'll write 'em an angry letter or something.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
69
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Posted - 2015.02.14 06:21:37 -
[512] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:admiral root wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:If you want to argue that wardecs should follow an individual player regardless of corp affiliation, the wardeccing corp and all players should also expose all assets linked to their group as collective players by the same logic. Any alts and assets in space linked to those accounts not tied to a non-deccable NPC corp should be engageable by all participants and allies without concord reprisal for the duration of the war; neatly inventoried and catalogued for all involved to see as part of filing the wardec. Since, you know, the argument is that you should be able to go after individual players, not corporations. Translation: I don't like your idea as it might turn out to be a much-needed buff for the good of the game (though not for me personally). Allow me to extend your position to a ridiculous point, thus allowing me to prove that you're quite probably bonkers. It's only ridiculous because the mercs' industry and incursion alts will almost certainly be in NPC corps. People who like to hunt meta 0 fit retrievers with garmurs and strategic cruisers deserve no sympathy. What makes you think anyone playing EVE deserves 'sympathy'? You're talking like there are special rules of engagement here that should be adhered to or else you'll write 'em an angry letter or something.
I'm not gonna argue with you. If you think it's good for the game to let someone run around hisec in a proteus exploding month old players, there's no point. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
6485
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Posted - 2015.02.14 06:35:44 -
[513] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:admiral root wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:If you want to argue that wardecs should follow an individual player regardless of corp affiliation, the wardeccing corp and all players should also expose all assets linked to their group as collective players by the same logic. Any alts and assets in space linked to those accounts not tied to a non-deccable NPC corp should be engageable by all participants and allies without concord reprisal for the duration of the war; neatly inventoried and catalogued for all involved to see as part of filing the wardec. Since, you know, the argument is that you should be able to go after individual players, not corporations. Translation: I don't like your idea as it might turn out to be a much-needed buff for the good of the game (though not for me personally). Allow me to extend your position to a ridiculous point, thus allowing me to prove that you're quite probably bonkers. It's only ridiculous because the mercs' industry and incursion alts will almost certainly be in NPC corps. People who like to hunt meta 0 fit retrievers with garmurs and strategic cruisers deserve no sympathy. What makes you think anyone playing EVE deserves 'sympathy'? You're talking like there are special rules of engagement here that should be adhered to or else you'll write 'em an angry letter or something. I'm not gonna argue with you. If you think it's good for the game to let someone run around hisec in a proteus exploding month old players, there's no point.
I never said that, and you didn't specify month old players either, you said, and I quote from above, "People who like to hunt meta 0 fit retrievers with garmurs and strategic cruisers deserve no sympathy." There's literally nothing about 'month old players' in that shpiel which beggars the question: why are you strawmanning? Were you trying to make a point of some kind? You can't expect anyone to understand what that point is if you're gonna be all over the ballpark like this. You should probably decide on a point first, then try to make as succinct and concise a presentation of it as possible. Otherwise, you just come across as another raving, mouth-frothing lunatic throwing a tantrum about people who don't play according to your E-honour rules.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6539
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Posted - 2015.02.14 07:15:41 -
[514] - Quote
Pretty sure you've fallen victim to some form of shifted goalposts.
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
934
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Posted - 2015.02.14 08:40:47 -
[515] - Quote
Back in my day, there was no TrammelEve.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
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Lupe Meza
Hedion University Amarr Empire
77
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Posted - 2015.02.14 13:30:00 -
[516] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:As hard as you're trying to quibble over semantics with no real point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation "A corporation is a company or group of people authorized to act as a single entity (legally a person) and recognized as such in law. Early incorporated entities were established by charter (i.e. by an ad hoc act granted by a monarch or passed by a parliament or legislature)." https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Corporation_%28Disambiguation%29 "A Corporation (Corp for short) is a virtual Company in New Eden, it may be a public Corporation or private Corporation consisting of a group of pod pilots in EVE that work together for a common purpose." As much as it's fun to take 2015 Earth meanings and apply them to New Eden. A lot could happen in the next 20,000 years at the time we are all playing. Who knows? Could be totally different and RL comparisons might best be left out. It's all crystal balling otherwise.
Yes but the onus is on you to show how the two are so different if that is your argument.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Corporation_management_guide
The functionality is near identical to an actual corporation, down to having shares, shareholders and dividends. Again this is a weak argument. Probably because my point is so valid that this is the only point you cling to as to avoid the actual issue. Textbook strawman and deflection. |
Lupe Meza
Hedion University Amarr Empire
77
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Posted - 2015.02.14 15:10:08 -
[517] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:If you want to argue that wardecs should follow an individual player regardless of corp affiliation, the wardeccing corp and all players should also expose all assets linked to their group as collective players by the same logic. Any alts and assets in space linked to those accounts not tied to a non-deccable NPC corp should be engageable by all participants and allies without concord reprisal for the duration of the war; neatly inventoried and catalogued for all involved to see as part of filing the wardec. Since, you know, the argument is that you should be able to go after individual players, not corporations. Translation: I don't like your idea as it might turn out to be a much-needed buff for the good of the game (though not for me personally). Allow me to extend your position to a ridiculous point, thus allowing me to prove that you're quite probably bonkers.
Sorry if that's what you took away, if so you completely missed the point or didn't actually read the post.
Firstly I wouldn't waste time trying to prove a poster bonkers, it'd be just impossible to prove in through medium and frankly not a constructive use of my time. Unlike getting in silly back and forths apparently. I need to re-examine my priorities.
Anyway, proving an idea is "bonkers" is quite doable. The original idea was that wardecs should follow players, i.e. the consequences of wardecs should follow the player not die with the actual corporation decced. But if this is the case, that wardecs should now follow players, not the corps themselves, why then should the aggressor be able to hide their assets as a player in shell and alt corporations? Why should they be able to use the protections of corporations to hunt targets using "neutrals". SInce this should be a "player vs player thing" now shouldn't all parties involved have all their assets laid bare and exposed to the same level of risk for the duration of war.
If that sounded bonkers, it probably is. Especially given my second point that individuals in a corp are not pursuable, but corporations are. This is demonstrable in the real world and in in the virtual world of EVE through looking at any of the multitude of game mechanics and info of corporations I've shared. The counter that EVE Corporations represent something different simply by virtue of being virtual constructs is fallacious as we have a clear understanding of their structure and they are clearly based on the corporate concept as we know it. Furthermore there has been no point presented on why exactly the law of concord should treat corporations differently in how far the reach of punitive actions extends as opposed to the real world corporations they are clearly based on.
Nothing I have said is at all unfair. If you don't like the point or agree with it fine, but that doesn't invalidate the point. Nor does arguing semantics and not addressing the point directly; why should wardecs follow players after a corporation is dissolved if a wardec is something that you do to a corporation, not a player? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14990
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Posted - 2015.02.14 18:10:47 -
[518] - Quote
Lupe Meza wrote:Yes but the onus is on you to show how the two are so different if that is your argument. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Corporation_management_guide The functionality is near identical to an actual corporation, down to having shares, shareholders and dividends. Again this is a weak argument. Probably because my point is so valid that this is the only point you cling to as to avoid the actual issue. Textbook strawman and deflection.
The difference is this is a game, not real life.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
6486
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Posted - 2015.02.14 18:18:09 -
[519] - Quote
Lupe Meza wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:As hard as you're trying to quibble over semantics with no real point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation "A corporation is a company or group of people authorized to act as a single entity (legally a person) and recognized as such in law. Early incorporated entities were established by charter (i.e. by an ad hoc act granted by a monarch or passed by a parliament or legislature)." https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Corporation_%28Disambiguation%29 "A Corporation (Corp for short) is a virtual Company in New Eden, it may be a public Corporation or private Corporation consisting of a group of pod pilots in EVE that work together for a common purpose." As much as it's fun to take 2015 Earth meanings and apply them to New Eden. A lot could happen in the next 20,000 years at the time we are all playing. Who knows? Could be totally different and RL comparisons might best be left out. It's all crystal balling otherwise. Yes but the onus is on you to show how the two are so different if that is your argument. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Corporation_management_guide The functionality is near identical to an actual corporation, down to having shares, shareholders and dividends. Again this is a weak argument. Probably because my point is so valid that this is the only point you cling to as to avoid the actual issue. Textbook strawman and deflection.
As mentioned repeatedly, analogising fiction with fact is not an argument, so it's rather ironic when you call anyone's argument weak. There are no wardec mechanics between corporations in real life, and while you call others' arguments weak, you don't even have one with this. It's not even a weak argument, it's a complete non-argument.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6541
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Posted - 2015.02.15 00:19:54 -
[520] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:As mentioned repeatedly, analogising fiction with fact is not an argument, so it's rather ironic when you call anyone's argument weak. There are no wardec mechanics between corporations in real life, and while you call others' arguments weak, you don't even have one with this. It's not even a weak argument, it's a complete non-argument. That would be pretty hilarious, wardec mechanics in real life
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858 Heroes and Villains.
1112
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Posted - 2015.02.15 00:50:32 -
[521] - Quote
It's simple really.
CCP invested a ton of eve player subscription cash down the pan at dust and world of darkness with a view to expanding their portfolio given they could or can only assume Eve would only last so long.
Most companies must look to the future. Management and forward planning play a significant part of course. They got it wrong.
Eve is being watered down atm in the hope it can attract in more casual players that stay subbed to offset the result of previous bad decisions which have impacted the company financially.
The core fundamentals of this game are changing because 35k people online vs 65k online on the weekends a few years back speaks for itself.
Am i wrong?
Concord Approved Trader
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Concord Guy's Cousin
State War Academy Caldari State
618
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Posted - 2015.02.15 00:58:53 -
[522] - Quote
Boom Boom Longtime wrote:It's simple really.
CCP invested a ton of eve player subscription cash down the pan at dust and world of darkness with a view to expanding their portfolio given they could or can only assume Eve would only last so long.
Most companies must look to the future. Management and forward planning play a significant part of course. They got it wrong.
Eve is being watered down atm in the hope it can attract in more casual players that stay subbed to offset the result of previous bad decisions which have impacted the company financially.
The core fundamentals of this game are changing because 35k people online vs 65k online on the weekends a few years back speaks for itself.
Am i wrong? I only have one nitpick, 65K online is the record, it was never the norm.
ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"
NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
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Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858 Heroes and Villains.
1112
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Posted - 2015.02.15 01:05:01 -
[523] - Quote
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:Boom Boom Longtime wrote:It's simple really.
CCP invested a ton of eve player subscription cash down the pan at dust and world of darkness with a view to expanding their portfolio given they could or can only assume Eve would only last so long.
Most companies must look to the future. Management and forward planning play a significant part of course. They got it wrong.
Eve is being watered down atm in the hope it can attract in more casual players that stay subbed to offset the result of previous bad decisions which have impacted the company financially.
The core fundamentals of this game are changing because 35k people online vs 65k online on the weekends a few years back speaks for itself.
Am i wrong? I only have one nitpick, 65K online is the record, it was never the norm. 60k was the average - give or take 5k - that aside, nothing detracts from the fact that ccp have lost give or take 20k players online from peak times at the weekend from a few years back - that does speak for itself.
Concord Approved Trader
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Orlacc
786
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Posted - 2015.02.15 01:17:57 -
[524] - Quote
Have I stumbled into an "EVE is dying" thread?
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1111
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Posted - 2015.02.15 01:18:43 -
[525] - Quote
OP forgot several things:
- Orca introduced the ability to transfer ore without a can, DST now get that same treatment for "no obvious reason" - barges/exhumers now have massive oreholds meaning miner have to make less choices about what to put in their low slots |
Genseric Tollaris
Dark Forge Enterprise Dead Terrorists
203
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Posted - 2015.02.15 02:41:46 -
[526] - Quote
I'd like to see CCP change crimewatch so that outlaw characters ships are concorded in high sec regardless of GCC. The gankbear tears would be epic. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
33096
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Posted - 2015.02.15 02:51:00 -
[527] - Quote
Genseric Tollaris wrote:I'd like to see CCP change crimewatch so that outlaw characters ships are concorded in high sec regardless of GCC. The gankbear tears would be epic. Yeah sure. No problem. Just make belt rats untankable too and let all NPCs pod players.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Genseric Tollaris
Dark Forge Enterprise Dead Terrorists
203
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Posted - 2015.02.15 02:57:11 -
[528] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Genseric Tollaris wrote:I'd like to see CCP change crimewatch so that outlaw characters ships are concorded in high sec regardless of GCC. The gankbear tears would be epic. Yeah sure. No problem. Just make belt rats untankable too and let all NPCs pod players.
Consequences, harden up, etc. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
33097
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Posted - 2015.02.15 03:03:04 -
[529] - Quote
Genseric Tollaris wrote:Consequences, harden up, etc. Harden up what exactly?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11778
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Posted - 2015.02.15 03:03:59 -
[530] - Quote
Genseric Tollaris wrote:I'd like to see CCP change crimewatch so that outlaw characters ships are concorded in high sec regardless of GCC. The gankbear tears would be epic.
I'd like to see mechanical consequences enforced on any other playstyle besides gankers, since they stand alone in that regard.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1920
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Posted - 2015.02.15 03:20:33 -
[531] - Quote
Boom Boom Longtime wrote: 60k was the average - give or take 5k - that aside, nothing detracts from the fact that ccp have lost give or take 20k players online from peak times at the weekend from a few years back - that does speak for itself.
Weekly average all time record. 36400. Weekly average currently, 27,000 Weekly average 2008, About 24,000.
Is it a fraction down, yes, however use the real statistics rather than fake ones and you do better. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
33097
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Posted - 2015.02.15 03:28:01 -
[532] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Boom Boom Longtime wrote: 60k was the average - give or take 5k - that aside, nothing detracts from the fact that ccp have lost give or take 20k players online from peak times at the weekend from a few years back - that does speak for itself.
Weekly average all time record. 36400. Weekly average currently, 27,000 Weekly average 2008, About 24,000. Is it a fraction down, yes, however use the real statistics rather than fake ones and you do better.
What were the weekend statistics? That's what BBLT was referring to with the 65 and 60 +/- 5 comment.
I don't honestly know myself, just not possible to discredit an argument by using the wrong stats.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Genseric Tollaris
Dark Forge Enterprise Dead Terrorists
203
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Posted - 2015.02.15 03:33:35 -
[533] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Genseric Tollaris wrote:Consequences, harden up, etc. Harden up what exactly?
Your delicate sensibilities.
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Genseric Tollaris
Dark Forge Enterprise Dead Terrorists
203
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Posted - 2015.02.15 03:34:42 -
[534] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Genseric Tollaris wrote:I'd like to see CCP change crimewatch so that outlaw characters ships are concorded in high sec regardless of GCC. The gankbear tears would be epic. I'd like to see mechanical consequences enforced on any other playstyle besides gankers, since they stand alone in that regard.
Do you even play this game? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
33099
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Posted - 2015.02.15 03:36:14 -
[535] - Quote
Genseric Tollaris wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Genseric Tollaris wrote:Consequences, harden up, etc. Harden up what exactly? Your delicate sensibilities. Oh if that's all, then don't worry about me.
For a lowsec pvper, you seem to be a bit dependent on CCP to solve problems. So let's both harden up a bit hey.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Genseric Tollaris
Dark Forge Enterprise Dead Terrorists
203
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Posted - 2015.02.15 03:37:56 -
[536] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Genseric Tollaris wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Genseric Tollaris wrote:Consequences, harden up, etc. Harden up what exactly? Your delicate sensibilities. Oh if that's all, then don't worry about me. For a lowsec pvper, you seem to be a bit dependent on CCP to solve problems. So let's both harden up a bit hey.
What problems? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11778
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Posted - 2015.02.15 03:39:49 -
[537] - Quote
Genseric Tollaris wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Genseric Tollaris wrote:I'd like to see CCP change crimewatch so that outlaw characters ships are concorded in high sec regardless of GCC. The gankbear tears would be epic. I'd like to see mechanical consequences enforced on any other playstyle besides gankers, since they stand alone in that regard. Do you even play this game?
If you disagree, then please enlighten me as to what other playstyles come with mechanical consequences to even a tiny degree in comparison to ganking.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
107
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Posted - 2015.02.15 04:11:58 -
[538] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:As mentioned repeatedly, analogising fiction with fact is not an argument, so it's rather ironic when you call anyone's argument weak. There are no wardec mechanics between corporations in real life, and while you call others' arguments weak, you don't even have one with this. It's not even a weak argument, it's a complete non-argument. That would be pretty hilarious, wardec mechanics in real life
Its called Nato. The US uses it quite allot. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
33099
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Posted - 2015.02.15 04:19:45 -
[539] - Quote
Genseric Tollaris wrote:What problems? The one you proposed a change for. It wasn't really well laid out why, but change for change sake doesn't really seem like many people's style.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Genseric Tollaris
Dark Forge Enterprise Dead Terrorists
203
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Posted - 2015.02.15 04:32:00 -
[540] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Genseric Tollaris wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Genseric Tollaris wrote:I'd like to see CCP change crimewatch so that outlaw characters ships are concorded in high sec regardless of GCC. The gankbear tears would be epic. I'd like to see mechanical consequences enforced on any other playstyle besides gankers, since they stand alone in that regard. Do you even play this game? If you disagree, then please enlighten me as to what other playstyles come with mechanical consequences to even a tiny degree in comparison to ganking.
Gate camping and anything involving gate and station agro come with mechanical consequences for violencing other players that can be a hell of a lot more severe than losing a gank cat to concord. Hell, any playstyle outside high sec can come with mechanical consequences that can mean far worse losses than anything a ganker would lose in high sec. |
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