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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7385
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Posted - 2015.02.17 02:29:31 -
[1] - Quote
An interesting article I read earlier today. I felt that some of the things in it are probably the reason for EVE's success after so many years... and why so many of us are rabid about "keeping is hard" and/or worry about EVE becoming "too soft."
"Why We Should Design Some Things to Be Difficult to Use"
Personally... I am a fan of "doing things the hard way" before experiencing the "easy way." You learn more things about whatever it is you are doing and have perspective... which can help later on when the "easy way" breaks down (which is usually does).
Moreover, I honestly think number 3 on that article is very, very true ("Danger may be Safer")... but with a slight tweak that is related to "hard" versus "easy." When you first experience things... you "acclimate" (get perspective) based on those experiences. This in turn alters your choices and decision making process so you can take the best possible course of action. But this is where things get fuzzy... because some people are less inclined to "acclimate" / adapt and will simply toss the entire experience in favor of another.
So should things be made safer and/or easier to use? Or should certain things (like EVE) be kept as it is; difficult to master and a harsh place to acclimate to?
(yes, yes... I am totally baiting with those questions).
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
3812
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Posted - 2015.02.17 18:18:39 -
[2] - Quote
Interesting. I used to love my old Canon AE-1 35 mm camera. I was close to 100% manual/user-controlled. No auto-focus, auto-flash, auto-etc. It had only one automatic function-- it had a light meter, and it set the best shutter speed according to the light level and your aperture selection. But if you had something more creative in mind, you could turn that function off by flipping one metal switch. You the user had control of a versatile high-precision mechanical tool.
Unfortunately some tiny black insects started living in the AE-1 and turned some spongey lining in it into powder. The powder and the bugs crawling on the mirror made it not so enjoyable to use.
So I got another Canon. But this one new-generation one was full of electronics and automated features. Designed to always give you the perfect shot, with minimal thought or effort. The automated features took control away from the user. (Sure, you could disable them, but doing that real pain. I had to study the 70-page manual every time and relearn how to do it for every different feature).
Anyway, I agree, doing it the harder way is better sometimes. When the tool is doing all of the thinking for you-- no thinking is required.
"My mule don't like laughing. You can apologize to my mule and can be alright."
-The Man with No Name
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Badel Jramodarr
9641
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Posted - 2015.02.18 03:18:39 -
[3] - Quote
It was an interesting read, and I would have to agree given my own experience with crappy first cars to hand-me-down computers to crappy relationships. I learnt a lot because of those experiences with difficulties, and the harder the lesson the easier it is to remember what you've learnt from it.
As far as Eve is concerned, I can safely say I'm playing because of the difficulty and complexity of the game. I also play for numerous other reasons too: the people, the rich lore, the beautiful scenery, etc but what hooked me was Eve's difficulty and the feeding of my want to learn - I wouldn't still be playing it otherwise.
I don't always have a signature; but when I do, it doesn't say anything at all
...I'm on a horse
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Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
3814
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Posted - 2015.02.19 01:22:38 -
[4] - Quote
Oh yeah, crappy cars are great teachers. (Picking just one from the list of good crappy things). A crappy car can teach you many things. For example: -A DIY mentality. That can serve you forever, in all kinds of situations. For example: Heater not working? Guy comes to fix it, but he doesn't get to hose you with "The framizitz is out, $405. The johnson rod needs replacing, $829. Good thing I got here before it exploded." Because when he walked in the door, you gave him your assessment of what you could fix and what you couldn't. Poor guy has to be honest on this call.
-Dealing with really difficult situations, with no forewarning. Such as: Being on the side of the road, late at night, with a dead car, and no contacts nearby. Your passenger friends are now suddenly became a cast of dramatic characters. In a wreck, drifting through space, and WTH do we do next? and/or some OMG OMG OMG! Even though you're the one going OMG, you might figure out that your level of OMFingG or bitchiness is lower than some other people's.
-You pay your dues, so you can play, paint, compose, or b.s. with style and feeling.
"My mule don't like laughing. You can apologize to my mule and can be alright."
-The Man with No Name
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
972
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Posted - 2015.02.23 14:51:15 -
[5] - Quote
Badel Jramodarr wrote:It was an interesting read, and I would have to agree given my own experience with crappy first cars to hand-me-down computers to crappy relationships. I learnt a lot because of those experiences with difficulties, and the harder the lesson the easier it is to remember what you've learnt from it.
As far as Eve is concerned, I can safely say I'm playing because of the difficulty and complexity of the game. I also play for numerous other reasons too: the people, the rich lore, the beautiful scenery, etc but what hooked me was Eve's difficulty and the feeding of my want to learn - I wouldn't still be playing it otherwise. Exactly my sentiment. I could not stand Waste of Web because it felt like you could mash any old button with the same outcome.
I tend to find something new, break the back of it until I become good at it and then lose interest. I do not gain satisfaction from repeating and refining the same process until it is perfect or as near as possible. Once the intellectual change is gone, then the interest shortly drops.
I think EVE holds a strong niche because of this and dumbing down would strip away their strength.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
30408
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Posted - 2015.02.23 15:18:39 -
[6] - Quote
The points in that article are not enough to excuse EVE for being ambiguous and clunky. The actions in EVE are fairly simple and easy to comprehend once you are familiar with them.
EVE's problem isn't being difficult, it's being poorly documented.
EVE is simple. It takes some time to gain a working knowledge of things, and the biggest hurdle is an SP time wall.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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jason hill
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
743
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Posted - 2015.02.23 19:52:39 -
[7] - Quote
"Design Some Things to Be Difficult to Use"
any microsoft product TBFH ...FKRS never make anything easy to use ! |
Badel Jramodarr
10849
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Posted - 2015.02.24 00:27:11 -
[8] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:The points in that article are not enough to excuse EVE for being ambiguous and clunky. The actions in EVE are fairly simple and easy to comprehend once you are familiar with them.
EVE's problem isn't being difficult, it's being poorly documented.
EVE is simple. It takes some time to gain a working knowledge of things, and the biggest hurdle is an SP time wall. While I agree to your overall sentiment to a certain extent, you're over simplifying it.
The highlighted factors are why this game pulls people with patience, intelligence, and tenacity. It not being well documented allows for experiments and lateral thinking in the use of the game's mechanics instead of a rigid formula of winning.
I could make the same statements about life - at times ambiguous and clunky but it's a simple game once you put the time and effort into learning it. Skilling over time is going to play a major factor and it's not well documented either, someone had to figure out how something worked to give us the limited documentation we have on it.
In both, difficulty is in the learning, not the doing
I don't always have a signature; but when I do, it doesn't say anything at all
...I'm on a horse
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
30416
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Posted - 2015.02.24 01:10:50 -
[9] - Quote
Ok, sure. Another issue with the article and exclusivity is it's opposed to other things like popularity. Which is what a game probably wants to be. You know, be successful.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12940
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Posted - 2015.02.27 00:14:03 -
[10] - Quote
The thesis should be "Design some things to require and allow mastery" but that doesn't sound as cool.
If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg
But in purple, I'm stunning!
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Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
3842
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Posted - 2015.02.28 02:11:42 -
[11] - Quote
I'd like to design a Stairmaster that makes people generate electrical power-- instead of sucking up fossil fuel energy to do the same thing actually walking up a set of stairs would do!
Also a leaf blower that turns into a rake if you just blow the freaking leaves into the neighbors' yards!
And a cruise ship that makes you pick up all of the golf balls you drove out into the Caribbean!
"My mule don't like laughing. You can apologize to my mule and can be alright."
-The Man with No Name
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7545
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Posted - 2015.02.28 02:18:26 -
[12] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:I'd like to design a Stairmaster that makes people generate electrical power-- instead of sucking up fossil fuel energy to do the same thing actually walking up a set of stairs would do! This is already a thing.
http://www.npr.org/2011/03/10/134432805/Gyms-Allow-Exercisers-To-Contribute-To-Power-Grid
Khergit Deserters wrote:Also a leaf blower that turns into a rake if you just blow the freaking leaves into the neighbors' yards! Leaf Vac
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-BV5600-Performance-Mulcher/dp/B00FREQBXE/ref=lp_553910_1_5?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1425089687&sr=1-5
But then... where would little Timmy be able to earn that 15 dollars a week?
Khergit Deserters wrote:And a cruise ship that makes you pick up all of the golf balls you drove out into the Caribbean! Playing golf on a ship in the middle of the ocean seems like a daft idea in the first place. Putting I can see... but straight out golf? Nope.
"The Skillpoint System and You"
"How did you Veterans start?"
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23506
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Posted - 2015.02.28 02:27:35 -
[13] - Quote
Having driven (and nearly destroyed) my friend's LC on several occasions through some rough, off road conditions, I agree with the article.
There is a kind of relationship you develop with a machine to understand its limitations, the kind of sounds it makes or its heft or how it moves and it is almost kind of hypnotizing that sometimes you might even lose sight of your objective.
I like unrolling my dad's collection of tools and picking the right one to work on something broken around the house or in the garage. The stuff I have at my own place are pretty cheap and substandard and I like the difference in control you can get with a good knife or a wrench.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
3843
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Posted - 2015.02.28 02:35:32 -
[14] - Quote
Indeed. Best wedding present-- a couple of really excellent kitchen knives. Good ones that can be honed, will hold an edge, and will slice up tomatoes, onions, green peppers forever. Not a good graduation gift. Can't trust a new grad to know where his/her good stuff ever went.
"My mule don't like laughing. You can apologize to my mule and can be alright."
-The Man with No Name
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23507
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Posted - 2015.02.28 02:47:16 -
[15] - Quote
I have an unhealthy amount of attachment to my Shuns, and at airports and one border crossing so far I have had to be in the weird position to explain why I am carrying a full set. I really like cooking with them..
Ick.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Badel Jramodarr
11898
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Posted - 2015.02.28 02:55:53 -
[16] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: I have an unhealthy amount of attachment to my Shuns, and at airports and one border crossing so far I have had to be in the weird position to explain why I am carrying a full set. I really like cooking with them..
Ick.
A secret assassin with a mastery in kitchen utensils... good to know
I don't always have a signature; but when I do, it doesn't say anything at all
...I'm on a horse
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Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
3844
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Posted - 2015.03.01 01:51:30 -
[17] - Quote
This thing is must be the ultimate tool, as edged tools go: Japan precision bluefin tuna sushi/sashimi katana. That thing is a true Nihontou. You know: forged from river sand iron dust; smelted and folded X (secret) number of times; forged and shaped on anvil; edge side shaped down by stone; honed, polished, and oiled; sent to the expert woodcrafter who makes and fits the handle.
It's a true Nihotou, with the cloudy cutting edge side, in traditional "fog," "ocean waves," etc. patterns.
Who knows how much one of those things cost. Probably about like a buying a Benz. You can see them in knives shops in Japan. But of course, never touch. And you have to a license from the national government to buy one. After all, it's just a katana with a longer handle, made by the same families from way back, with another 300 years or so of technical development.
"My mule don't like laughing. You can apologize to my mule and can be alright."
-The Man with No Name
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Burtzum
Det Som Engang Var
28
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Posted - 2015.03.01 03:01:37 -
[18] - Quote
I made a bottle opener. It's a little harder to use than my store bought ones. Success? |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23530
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Posted - 2015.03.01 03:29:21 -
[19] - Quote
Burtzum wrote:I made a bottle opener. It's a little harder to use than my store bought ones. Success?
Absolute success, in my opinion!
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Velarra
354
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Posted - 2015.03.01 07:48:08 -
[20] - Quote
In some cases, having a tool that obfuscates the mechanical complexities behind it is good, it lets the user get on with creating a product. Or, learning to generate a good product, & understanding what makes the product good. Rather than learning to use every possible aspect of the tool first, before learning why and how an audience likes the final intended product.
I mean, it's probably better to use a text editor to write a report, than take some time to first learn proper use of paper punch cards, memory addresses, and reserved memory addresses due to the strength of the paper cards, to generate the text editor with. |
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