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Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
47
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Posted - 2015.02.19 13:13:35 -
[1] - Quote
I was talking to one of my corpmates the other night, we were discussing ships, training etc that I wanted to do. Along the course of the discussion it became pretty obvious that the fights/ships that i would like to get into are . . . rare. Basically, i'd like to get into Battleship fights, however these are rare i was told, because of Ishtars and T3's. Why don't people use battleships more in fleets/gangs? From what i've seen they are consigned to the shadows of PVE. Surely i'm not the only one that would like to get into a brawling knife fight, rather than messing about dropping sentries, reconnecting to them etc etc that comes with Ishtars, and the insane expense of T3 fleets? I'm not advocating any changes with this thread, just asking why it is? |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
743
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Posted - 2015.02.19 13:24:21 -
[2] - Quote
I feel your pain
At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay |
Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
47
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Posted - 2015.02.19 13:27:51 -
[3] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:I feel your pain At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay
maybe battleships should have a point defense system, that would give the ship a chance of shooting the bomb before it detonates. |
Erica Dusette
Isogen 5
38107
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Posted - 2015.02.19 13:35:54 -
[4] - Quote
I enjoy using battleships semi-regularly, particularly the Barghest.
In our corp Suddenly BarghestGäó has become a thing. Why just jump into something simple to go do a lol-gank? Why not take billions of ISK worth of faction battleships instead and make it an event? So we do. Nothing like dying to a Barghest and Bhaalgorn while you're trying to run your relic site in your Heron or something.
Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly BarghestGäó goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.
Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!
Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel
The Endgame | Wormhole Diaries
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
744
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Posted - 2015.02.19 13:45:46 -
[5] - Quote
Erica Dusette wrote: Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly BarghestGäó goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.
For some strange reason, people tend to get a little giddy when groups of Faction Battleships cruise around |
Erica Dusette
Isogen 5
38115
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Posted - 2015.02.19 13:53:03 -
[6] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Erica Dusette wrote: Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly BarghestGäó goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.
For some strange reason, people tend to get a little giddy when groups of Faction Battleships cruise around See the sacrifice we make? Putting all that on the line is a glory to Bob, even more so if it all dies.
Just think of the positive Karma coming our way when eventually Suddenly BarghestGäó goes down in a ball of holy fire.
An instance was just recently in fact. One of our new pilots spots a Drake doing sites next door. Call comes over comms "Dusette, need a Barghest to static". I was dead at the time, in cryo-stasis after shooting myself in the head during an extreme psyhotic episode, but that's another story. Suffice to say my sister Dani jumped into the Barghest and off she went.
Now our intrepid new pilot was a little naive and didn't bother to link the Drake's corp in fleet. And us being somewhat furious with bloodlust at the time didn't bother to ask ...
As it turned out, after landing on grid, the Drake bait belonged to La Division Bleue, one of the largest French wormhole PVP organizations around. Of course next thing you know all the things land on grid and it's Suddenly On for everyone and their grandmothers. Of course being worth nearly 3b, Suddenly BarghestGäó quickly becomes primary, but my sister managed to get it out safely, returning with a Tengu plus another sister in her Stratios where we joined the others in murdering all the French folks in a classic gank-counter-gank-counter-counter-gank style scenario, followed by Foedus yelling at our scout for risking the Barghest by not checking the Drake's corp.
So really even when it goes bad it still goes good. For someone.
Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!
Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel
The Endgame | Wormhole Diaries
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
1955
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Posted - 2015.02.19 14:34:39 -
[7] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:I feel your pain At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay +1
Also I don't see a compelling delta in DPS or EHP compared to T3's (or even HAC's), for the pain points that come with flying them..
Let's not also forget with the recent warp changes BS"s just simply suck to fly now from a roaming perspective. What if...
HAC's 3.5 AU warp speed T1 Cruisers 3.3 AU warp speed BC's 3.1 AU warp speed Faction BS's 3.0 AU warp speed BS's 2.7 AU warp speed
Tweak that to taste, but you get the idea. Key is that front of the line ships should always be fun to fly, especially as EvE stares down the competitive barrel of more twitch-based space sims like Elite and SS. I totally get a delta in speeds needs to exist with fast tackle, but if you make an entire ship class not fun to fly anymore you have lost the plot.. Gimping tank or other rigging to use hyperspatials just to un-do that suckage is not the answer, base speeds need a rethink IMHO.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
745
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Posted - 2015.02.19 14:51:31 -
[8] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: Let's not also forget with the recent warp changes BS"s just simply suck to fly now from a roaming perspective.
Actually, this is a very good point, and it's also worth mentioning that this has only been compounded by the Power projection nerfs. With Jump Bridges and Titan Bridges getting swept up with the Power Projection changes, its made subcap fleets a lot less manouverable, and of course this is going to hit the slowest moving subcaps the hardest. If you want to go somewhere, doing it in Battleships is just an exercise in self-harm. |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
113
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Posted - 2015.02.19 15:16:15 -
[9] - Quote
At this point, the only point a battleship really serves is to bash on structures you can't reach with capitals.
And to bump freighters. Never forget the freighter bumping.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
967
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Posted - 2015.02.19 15:41:14 -
[10] - Quote
an orca warps as fast as a t1 battleship.... A BLOODY ORCA! I was going to do a BS roam, then I went like 2 jumps and just said no. maybe I should set up an ascendancy clone for lowsec BS fun?
also fighters and fighter bombers hit battleships rather well, so BS are vulnerable to bombers and caps. In lowsec bombers are very weak vs BS, but many parts of lowsec are rather well connected to each other making a hotdrop a real possibility. You will probably be able to run a BS for a while, but once people see you often enough they make plans.
all of this is really a shame as battleships are pretty dang awesome, and I would like to see them used more. seems that only a few people are really giving them a try though.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Seraph Essael
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1051
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Posted - 2015.02.19 15:48:48 -
[11] - Quote
Erica Dusette wrote:I enjoy using battleships semi-regularly, particularly the Barghest.
In our corp Suddenly BarghestGäó has become a thing. Why just jump into something simple to go do a lol-gank? Why not take billions of ISK worth of faction battleships instead and make it an event? So we do. Nothing like dying to a Barghest and Bhaalgorn while you're trying to run your relic site in your Heron or something.
Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly BarghestGäó goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.
PvP Barghest <3
That monster is a machine!!!
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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SpaceMonkey
Dark Angel Battalion
1
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Posted - 2015.02.19 15:57:09 -
[12] - Quote
Interesting alliance name.. I look forward to my copy right royalties.
I remember a day when that is what you flew to fight and roam. battleships ruled the space lanes and it was a glorious time. Ravens loaded with heavy launchers firing torps or cruise, ruptures burning around at 5k and gank geddons fit with 1400 arties and 8 gyro'swith 100% tracking of even a frig.
I get why changes were made to the above, but yes battleships are near useless to fly. They still have role, but mostly high sec be that bumping or mish running in faction/techII BS.. even mission runners stay clear of the tech I variants. It's pretty sad state of affairs tbh.
So much has changed around them that I don't know where to begin to rebalance them. Bombers will be bombers, if they drop tech III correctly it's dead as well as a BS. I don't think they broke the BS I think so many tweaks to improve or nerf other ships and stats that have landed the battleship where it is now. |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1078
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Posted - 2015.02.19 16:17:36 -
[13] - Quote
Well they could adjust bombing damage by adjusting a current battleship module, the target spectrum breaker (which is relatively useless atm).
Change it to a Area Spectrum Resistor. Basically give the battleship a increase to the resistance of area effect weapons (bombs). It's an active module, takes a significant amount of cap or possibly cap boosters, and provides resistance to all bomb damage for 20 seconds or something like that.
So you have your battleship gang, you see bombs flying at you. You can either micro jump drive, activate this module, or try to warp away. You have 10 seconds to react to the bomb wave. You see it, activate module, and resist the damage of the bombs (let's say it reduces the aoe by 70 percent).
Modules a midslot already.
So instead of nerfing bombs and bombers, give the battleships a buff by giving them a method of actively surviving the blast.
id rather give the players ways of surviving than just straight nerfing.
Yaay!!!!
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Faridah
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.02.19 16:46:48 -
[14] - Quote
Maybe defender missile launchers could finally find it's place. You load them with those new blitzing fast bomb-seeking warheads?
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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
298
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Posted - 2015.02.19 17:07:26 -
[15] - Quote
They need a significant boost in EHP or a significant boost to the damage they deal to smaller ships [b]or[/b] a significant boost to the damage they deal to larger ships.
Preferably specific battleship hulls will specialize in each of these rolls.
A good practical example is the Rattlesnake: It's damage bonus is to MISSILES, not to Cruises or Torps. This allows it to project terrific firepower onto frigates if it chooses to fit rapid lights. This flexibility should be available to more battleships. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
261
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Posted - 2015.02.19 17:39:13 -
[16] - Quote
There are a few hulls that currently work pretty well for a few niches, but over the class needs a balance pass. With boosts and implants you can rock people pretty hard still if they don't. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
289
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Posted - 2015.02.19 17:58:59 -
[17] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:I feel your pain At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay This is trotted out every time someone brings this up and its BS (also along with isboxer cheater crap). Sure bombers are very effective against BS. They is what they are for. But a few AF in the fleet and well the bombers are no more. Oh bombs you say? Well then BS would be used in LS.
They still arn't used much in LS either. So it is not bombs or bombers. It is that HACs are better in every way. Period.
They tank as well with a smaller sig radius and are faster than a BS, so damage application from *all* weapon systems is less (tracking for turrets, sig radius and velocity for missiles/torps ). Combined with great damage output from HACs damage projection and faster warp speed better agility, there really is no reason to use a BS. A fleet of eagles is pretty effective while Ishtars are godlike.
Basically power creep has meant that BS and to a lesser extent BC don't have a role.
Despite this there are BS fleets around (navy apocs). Funny thing about them is that they are not bombed off field with these mythical fleets of bomber wings. Well no more than what should be expected by normal balance game play.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Memphis Baas
171
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Posted - 2015.02.19 18:23:19 -
[18] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:They need a significant boost in EHP or a significant boost to the damage they deal to smaller ships or a significant boost to the damage they deal to larger ships.
Can it be done by rebalancing battleship-sized modules and guns rather than rebalancing the ships, in your opinion? So that one could fit a battleship for one of your or's, or another.
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Orlacc
798
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Posted - 2015.02.19 18:25:46 -
[19] - Quote
You young punks! In my day we use Battleships to mine! (true story)
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6281
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Posted - 2015.02.19 18:36:23 -
[20] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:I was talking to one of my corpmates the other night, we were discussing ships, training etc that I wanted to do. Along the course of the discussion it became pretty obvious that the fights/ships that i would like to get into are . . . rare. Basically, i'd like to get into Battleship fights, however these are rare i was told, because of Ishtars and T3's. Why don't people use battleships more in fleets/gangs? From what i've seen they are consigned to the shadows of PVE. Surely i'm not the only one that would like to get into a brawling knife fight, rather than messing about dropping sentries, reconnecting to them etc etc that comes with Ishtars, and the insane expense of T3 fleets? I'm not advocating any changes with this thread, just asking why it is?
Alright if you are having some kind of image of wooden ships of old side by side putting ball into each other, or maybe something like WWII with the long volleys..... the computer says no.
That a kind of warfare more akin to "second generation war" or also called "line warfare". (First generation is usually called "siege warfare" - castles and such)
Eve is more geared towards 3rd generation maneuver warfare where if you use a battleship it's more likely the center of a "support group".
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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ggodhsup
relocation LLC.
61
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Posted - 2015.02.19 18:45:12 -
[21] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:You young punks! In my day we used Battleships to mine! (true story) And it was uphill both ways!
i remember when the tier 3 bs's were released, i caught a maelstrom belt ratting in solitude low-sec. belt ratting.
but really, their warp speed makes them really boring. more time warping than anything. even moreso, there is no sneaking up on anyone in them.
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Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
278
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Posted - 2015.02.19 18:50:46 -
[22] - Quote
If you really want battleship fights, you need to find some low sec worth fighting over. Bombers can't pee in your cornflakes there, hot drops are very unlikely and a fortified battleship fleet could stand up to an Ishtar fleet with a proper doctrine.
Name that low sec? Nope, I go t nothing. |
Serene Repose
2270
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Posted - 2015.02.19 21:21:17 -
[23] - Quote
Roaming in a BS is like ballet in combat boots. It can be done...if you're not worried about TIME.
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Vyl Vit
1060
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Posted - 2015.02.19 21:27:12 -
[24] - Quote
Sisohiv wrote:If you really want battleship fights, you need to find some low sec worth fighting over. Bombers can't pee in your cornflakes there, hot drops are very unlikely and a fortified battleship fleet could stand up to an Ishtar fleet with a proper doctrine. There may be a lot more to this than meets the eye. Using a BS like a cruiser seems to be the hitch in the getalong. Then, using a cruiser like a powerful frigate seems to be the desire - which likens this sort of fight to dogfighting in jets, not classic naval fleet engagement...if you see where I'm going here.
Anyway, I think battleships where swept out of favor without really examining if it was necessary. At the time it seemed convenient, and now it seems like doctrine. Yet, I think it's too much ship to just reject out of hand just because of something one has heard from someone else who "knows." We don't really know. This "proper doctrine" hasn't been fully explored, so it surely hasn't been thoroughly tested.
When I'm sitting at a gate in my well-tanked, cruise-missile fitted Fleet Typhoon w/enviable drone augmentation, next to a T3 cruiser, I'm not nervous...how about you?
Anyone with any sense has already left town.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2009
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Posted - 2015.02.19 21:50:17 -
[25] - Quote
Slow to warp, slow to align, slow to lock, low mobility on the field, high SP requirements, mediocre damage application?
There's a plethora of reasons not to use battleships. They are useful when employed in specialist roles, or when durability and damage output is needed but capitals can't be used and speed is not a factor, but otherwise there's normally a better, or more fun option. |
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2132
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Posted - 2015.02.19 21:58:20 -
[26] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Kestral Anneto wrote:I was talking to one of my corpmates the other night, we were discussing ships, training etc that I wanted to do. Along the course of the discussion it became pretty obvious that the fights/ships that i would like to get into are . . . rare. Basically, i'd like to get into Battleship fights, however these are rare i was told, because of Ishtars and T3's. Why don't people use battleships more in fleets/gangs? From what i've seen they are consigned to the shadows of PVE. Surely i'm not the only one that would like to get into a brawling knife fight, rather than messing about dropping sentries, reconnecting to them etc etc that comes with Ishtars, and the insane expense of T3 fleets? I'm not advocating any changes with this thread, just asking why it is? Alright if you are having some kind of image of wooden ships of old side by side putting ball into each other, or maybe something like WWII with the long volleys..... the computer says no. That a kind of warfare more akin to "second generation war" or also called "line warfare". (First generation is usually called "siege warfare" - castles and such) Eve is more geared towards 3rd generation maneuver warfare where if you use a battleship it's more likely the center of a "support group".
Only that every ship in the support group warps twice as fast as a battleship.
Also, I don't think Eve is terribly 3rd generation warfare. Maybe that is the idea behind ship designs but look at the practice and you see, it has all gone out of the window and everyone's flying Tengus, Ishtars and Scimitars =p |
Theodoric Darkwind
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
319
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Posted - 2015.02.19 22:46:13 -
[27] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:At this point, the only point a battleship really serves is to bash on structures you can't reach with capitals.
And to bump freighters. Never forget the freighter bumping.
Freighter bumping is it pretty much and people only use Machariels and Phoons for that.
Ishtars structure bash every bit as good as Domis and are far more mobile and less likely to DIAF to bombers (though they still can be bombed, ask DBRB about the Ishtar fleets he's wiped out with bombing runs).
Two things need to happen for BS brawls to become a "thing that happens" again.
Bombs need to be nerfed into the dirt or flat out removed from the game (imho nerf the bombs not the bombers, SBs are plenty useful without bombs without being OP).
BS warp speed needs to be un-nerfed so that moving BS fleets isn't an exercise in mental torture. Right now, it is only slightly more painful to move a Carrier/Dread fleet by gates, but of course Carriers/Dreads are vastly more powerful for the annoyance of moving them.
This may not be enough to truly fix it, but would help. BSes are still slaughtered by Carriers/Dreads.
Making BSes viable again would actually do a lot to combat Ishtars/Tengus Online. Making BSes other than the Domi and Apoc viable would do even more, right now Domis and Apocs are the only ones with the range and tracking to effectively fight Ishtars and Tengus. |
Claud Tiberius
Fidelas Constans
99
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:06:28 -
[28] - Quote
BS, particularly T1's, are very much a support ship. You don't fly them on their own because, they cannot handle all target types (unlike T3's and some T2 Cruisers). I think for the most part this is what CCP intended. Their not meant to be the best choice for all fleet battles.
Having said that, I think T3's and BS compete for the same place in fleets and since T3 are just better overall, BS rarely get used. T2 BS certainly still have a place in fleet battles as T3 cannot compete against them. But the T2 BS price being so high, it is often questioned why not use a capital ship instead.
Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
377
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:53:22 -
[29] - Quote
I luv my Battle Ships. I have a collection of about 70, most of them Navy versions. Half of them fit... My Favorite is my Scorpion Ishukone. I'll never undock that one.
I play solo so I rarely get to fly them for what passes as PVP. But they look shiny... |
Ashlar Maidstone
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
155
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:57:01 -
[30] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Slow to warp, slow to align, slow to lock, low mobility on the field, high SP requirements, mediocre damage application?
There's a plethora of reasons not to use battleships. They are useful when employed in specialist roles, or when durability and damage output is needed but capitals can't be used and speed is not a factor, but otherwise there's normally a better, or more fun option.
I cannot but agree with you on this, a BS such as an Apoc is a sitting duck unless there's a way to otherwise get moving. I realize that align and warping are slow but I cannot see the reasoning behind it except for the mass size, I hate to try a carrier next and see it does.... |
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