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Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis
245
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Posted - 2015.02.19 18:46:59 -
[1] - Quote
It seems like one of the biggest gripes about FW is that it all seems like it's just small ship pvp and no one flies anything above frigs and dessies. While this isn't actually true, it is the case that system pushes create incentives that favor small ship fleets over large ones. Because novices and smalls can be run faster (10min and 15min to complete, respectively) than the mediums and larges (both 20min), if you can't control all the plexes, it makes the most sense to control the smallest types, since completing those will put you ahead on your contestation rate (however slow that might actually be). Hence, for large system pushes it is rare you'll see any fleets of anything above cruiser hull size, and even those are not nearly as common as frig/dessy fleets.
My proposal is that they simply invert the completion times. Have mediums and larges complete in 10min, smalls stay at 15min, and novices take 20min. We can change the LP values so that the larges, mediums, and novices have the same LP/min payout as before, but for large pushes, fleet comps made of bigger ship hulls will be favored.
Thoughts? |
Maximus Decimal
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
97
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Posted - 2015.02.19 19:04:10 -
[2] - Quote
+1
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
426
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Posted - 2015.02.19 19:16:38 -
[3] - Quote
If you want to use plex sizes/times to push the meta for system contestations to larger ship comps why not start with some middle ground and make FW plexes all take the same amount of time to complete?
I worry though about how it will impact things on the solo/micro gang front, as well as for people who may just want to log in for 20-30 minutes, run a plex and maybe get a fight. Doing so in a novice or small at the moment is ideal because of the lower amount of time needed.
Interesting idea though. |
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
329
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Posted - 2015.02.19 20:20:12 -
[4] - Quote
- Plexes for BCs - Change impact, not times: .4% for novice, .5% for small, .6% for medium, .7% for (new) large, .8% for unrestricted
That's how i'd change it. Slightly slows down contestation and slightly favors defenders.
pew pew
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Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
5
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Posted - 2015.02.19 20:36:25 -
[5] - Quote
Zen Guerrilla wrote:- Plexes for BCs - Change impact, not times: .4% for novice, .5% for small, .6% for medium, .7% for (new) large, .8% for unrestricted
That's how i'd change it. Slightly slows down contestation and slightly favors defenders.
I like everything about that except slower system flips. |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
424
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Posted - 2015.02.19 20:58:08 -
[6] - Quote
Yeah, I don't think the overall pace of system flips needs changing. |
James Clough
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
9
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Posted - 2015.02.19 21:23:19 -
[7] - Quote
Damn, never thought I would agree with Zen.....
+1 to zen |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2797
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:00:07 -
[8] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:Zen Guerrilla wrote:- Plexes for BCs - Change impact, not times: .4% for novice, .5% for small, .6% for medium, .7% for (new) large, .8% for unrestricted
That's how i'd change it. Slightly slows down contestation and slightly favors defenders. I like everything about that except slower system flips. You're in luck. With Zen's proposal, systems would flip slightly faster (9% faster) since one more plex is being added to the mix.
JUSTK is recruiting.
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Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
425
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:21:01 -
[9] - Quote
I was kindof disappointed that the new Large Plex wasn't gated for BC down. I never got to experience the heyday of BC plex fights, and from what I've heard they could be really cool.
Thankfully, I never had to deal with clearing the NPCs during Plex battles. Or having my fleet jammed out by caldari rats during a fight. Pretty much all I was doing in those days was orbiting the buttan at high speed in my dual rep Incursus. |
Maximus Decimal
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
97
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:23:46 -
[10] - Quote
4 of 6 contributors not in FW... Just sayin'.
Zen your plan sounds pretty good but I think at this point, any shakeup in the plexing/contesting mechanics would be welcomed. I also think the ramifications of ramping up FW a hull class or two may not be to your liking though. Making FW space more appealing to larger scale warfare encourages large scale entities to be involved. One of the awesome phenomena of faction warfare is that large nullsec alliances often make appearances and often fail miserably to adapt to smaller scale pvp. I think if the FW zones are opened up for large alliances and super-corps to succeed, the PvP you know and love in these zones will be gone.
Edit: Two new posts as I was writing this ruined my ratio :-( |
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Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
425
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:33:44 -
[11] - Quote
I don't think GalMil would be unhappy at all to dunk nullsec BC fleets in plex fights. Even scaling up the combat ship class wise, fighting in a Plex is different than the kind of battles Nullsec sov warfare generates. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3183
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Posted - 2015.02.20 00:21:49 -
[12] - Quote
i always liked the idea of having the same lp payout and timer length for all plex sizes.
the main problem i see of making medium+large plexes more relevant for sov warfare is that T2 logistics make many fights really really boring. If someone would tell me to fight a sacrilige/guardian fleet in a medium i would probably reply no thanks i rather take a confessor and roam somewhere.
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Maximus Decimal
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
97
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Posted - 2015.02.20 00:32:51 -
[13] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote:I don't think GalMil would be unhappy at all to dunk nullsec BC fleets in plex fights. Even scaling up the combat ship class wise, fighting in a Plex is different than the kind of battles Nullsec sov warfare generates. I'm sure they wouldn't, however I don't see this happening for long if they decide to stick around. Anyway that is beside the point. It would not be the militias as you see them in one coordinated effort that would loose out. It would be the militias as in the solo pilots, the smaller corps and independent groups, the guys who make faction warfare the small gang and solo PvP haven it is.
Logging in for 15-30 mins at a time and having a #gudfight in a cheap fun ship on your doorstep is not some thing found everywhere in this game. |
Maximus Decimal
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
97
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 00:34:31 -
[14] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:i always liked the idea of having the same lp payout and timer length for all plex sizes.
the main problem i see of making medium+large plexes more relevant for sov warfare is that T2 logistics make many fights really really boring. If someone would tell me to fight a sacrilige/guardian fleet in a medium i would probably reply no thanks i rather take a confessor and roam somewhere. Indeed, this also sounds like a 'nullbear' tactic :-p |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1363
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 00:37:54 -
[15] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote:I was kindof disappointed that the new Large Plex wasn't gated for BC down. I never got to experience the heyday of BC plex fights, and from what I've heard they could be really cool.
Thankfully, I never had to deal with clearing the NPCs during Plex battles. Or having my fleet jammed out by caldari rats during a fight. Pretty much all I was doing in those days was orbiting the buttan at high speed in my dual rep Incursus.
BC fights were **** and slow. Drakes and canes vs drakes and canes. People who recall this with rose tinted glasses really make my eyes roll.
I personally think a better way to address this would be to change the VP points for plexes
currently;
Novice = 20VP Small = 20VP Medium = 20VP Large = 20VP
= total of 80VP
My proposal;
Novice = 10VP Small = 15VP Medium = 20VP Large = 35VP
= total of 80VP
No changes to timers or LP payout is required.
This does 2 things. It slightly reduces the impact of low SP alts on occupancy. It also means the side that controls the larger plexes can make progress against a side that will not ship up past corms.
ALTERNATIVELY, TiDi should be 80% inside novice and small plexes to satisfy those that seem to value battleship pixels over frigate pixels. So people can have the best of both worlds. |
Dani Maulerant
Order of the Valkyrie LOADED-DICE
16
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Posted - 2015.02.20 00:42:07 -
[16] - Quote
Some of the proposals sound cool and could be refined. But what I could already get behind is a new BC sized plex. Maybe make that the large and then what is currently the large (unrestricted) ca be renamed Huge, or just go with Unrestricted. |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
426
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 06:48:32 -
[17] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
BC fights were **** and slow. Drakes and canes vs drakes and canes. People who recall this with rose tinted glasses really make my eyes roll.
Hm. Fair enough, mebbe that's why they went away? Honestly I'm mostly fine with things as they are, plex mechanics wise. Not sure what needs to be done to liven up FW but I think we've come as far as we can by tweaking the existing content. |
ALUCARD 1208
Spiritus Draconis
406
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Posted - 2015.02.20 07:26:11 -
[18] - Quote
BC plexes would mean jack as the goal is to get plex superiority so will still come down to the smaller faster reships... Bcs will be caught and fkd at the systems in gate before they even make it to the plex imo
Just because Bcs are allowed in the plex doesnt mean thats what you will get in them....
and if one was made would tech3s be allowed in them?
GÖÑ HIGH FIVES GÖÑ-á
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Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
76
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Posted - 2015.02.20 13:01:19 -
[19] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
This does 2 things. It slightly reduces the impact of low SP alts on occupancy. It also means the side that controls the larger plexes can make progress against a side that will not ship up past corms. Progress also reflects time and risk spend inside plexes.
A consequence of this is that whichever side has the sp and isk to produce a fleet that the other side simply can't fight will be able to win a system without fighting. One of the great things about FW is that there is a minimal SP bar to being able to make a significant contribution. Changing the equation so that the larger plexes are more deceisive that the frig/dessie ones will mean system control battles will be foregone conclusions before they start or will be determined by one or two fights between big and expensive fleets, after which the losers will not be able to afford to come back in the same and at which point the novices and smalls will not be worth contesting because they will not allow the system to be held in any case.
The side that will not ship up past corms is already at a disadvantage and the side that will will already make progress as long as it doesn't lose ALL the novices and smalls. I don't think we should be setting up a system where you can lose or not contest every single novice and small plex and still win. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1363
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 14:25:50 -
[20] - Quote
Thats kind of true but not exactly. The novice and small plexes can be completed more often than a large. So over time the rate that small and novice plexes are completed should more than cancel out the large. If one side controls the large AND the medium then very slow progress will be made, but without figuring out the numbers my gut is telling me it will take so long to make progress while ignoring the novice and smalls that there will be sufficient incentive to ship for them.
Another consequence is slightly longer system flip times due to a larger amount of VP weighted to longer timers.
Another comment on the OP. Juls, there are already mechanics out there to justify forming a megathron fleet. Just go bash a poco. |
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
177
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Posted - 2015.02.20 16:12:13 -
[21] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:... ..The time it takes to form up and move around and evade hotdrops really is a much larger negative than any positive they bring.
This is a crucial observation.
1. It points to the FW population crisis (particularly of PvPer population) which is particularly felt in AvsM zone. 2. It points to the absolute dull drums in game experience now moving around in BC or BS as you "Sit in warp" between gates. 3. It's bad enough that there were hardly any roams in null-sec coz "why when I can bridge" or "why when there will be a massive bubble camp on the other side of the next gate". Something that has in part been addressed with jump fatigue.
On first thoughts, if they wanted Frigs to be faster warps to cruisers to BC to BS to Caps, then fine.
However, boost them all. Add (be it 2,3,4 or 5 or whatever suitable) au/s to top warp speed for all ships so that we don't get sick of slow boating across systems? Your fast ships will still be quicker but, none of us will be yawning whilst we cross Resbroko or another such system (omg suddenly I have more time for interactive play)
I am strongly of the opinion that the catalysing aspects of FW, that bring people into the Militia's, is currently too weighted on PvE (and specifically on accumulation of wealth through LP harvesting) against PvP and weighing in with a faction for the long war.
I think there are a lot of opportunities to alter what is already in the design to bring about a rebalance away from wealth (which is what most of the rest of Eve is about).
Starting with the bonus's given by Militia Faction Tier level (remove the excessive LP bonus's).
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
332
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 16:35:51 -
[22] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Boozbaz wrote:Zen Guerrilla wrote:- Plexes for BCs - Change impact, not times: .4% for novice, .5% for small, .6% for medium, .7% for (new) large, .8% for unrestricted
That's how i'd change it. Slightly slows down contestation and slightly favors defenders. I like everything about that except slower system flips. You're in luck. With Zen's proposal, systems would flip slightly faster (9% faster) since one more plex is being added to the mix. Uh, stop making me look stupid, i'm totally capable of that on my own.
But yeah, with another plex added it would actually speed things up. Plex respawns would have to be nerfed slightly to actually slow things down then.
pew pew
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Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
76
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 16:46:32 -
[23] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:The novice and small plexes can be completed more often than a large. So over time the rate that small and novice plexes are completed should more than cancel out the large. If one side controls the large AND the medium then very slow progress will be made, but without figuring out the numbers my gut is telling me it will take so long to make progress while ignoring the novice and smalls that there will be sufficient incentive to ship for them.
I think the additional numbers of novice and small plexes is a bit less significant. Assuming that the plexes are all popped as soon as they spawn the cycle time from completion to spawn to completion is 40 mins for a novice, 45 mins for a small and 50 mins for mediums and larges. Assuming we start with one of each spawned and they are all completed in optimal time, after 3 hours and 50 minutes 5 novices will have been completed, 4.5 smalls and 4 of each of the mediums and larges. So in just under four hours there are 100 VPs available for novices, 90 for smalls and 80 each for the bigger ones. That gives a very, very slight edge (30 VP in four hours or c. 7.5 VP/hour) to someone who can win all the novices and smalls but none of the meds and larges.
If your suggested VP changes were implemented the value of the novices across this period would drop to 50 VP and the smalls to 67.5, dropping the 4 hour total from 190 VP to 117.5. The mediums would stay at 80 VP and the larges would rocket up to 140, making the larges alone worth considerably more than the novices and smalls together while the meds and larges together would be worth nearly twice the value of the novices and small together (220 vs 117.5) even accounting for the slightly greater frequency of novices and smalls. So we would have a swing from the current 7.5 VP an hour edge for the side that wins all the smalls to a 25 VP an hour edge for the side who wins all the meds and larges.
Edit: If we change novices to 15 VP, keep smalls and meds at 20 and raise larges to 25 then over 4 hours the novices and smalls would collectively be worth 165 (75+90) while the meds and larges would be worth 180, giving the kind of edge to the bigger plexes that might be more in line with what you are looking for. Personally, though, I still think the edge should lie with the smaller ones as this means we avoid a foregone conclusion (no matter how slow) from dominating with the big toys. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2797
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 16:50:46 -
[24] - Quote
Zen Guerrilla wrote: But yeah, with another plex added it would actually speed things up. Plex respawns would have to be nerfed slightly to actually slow things down then.
Wasn't complaining either way. Variety and change are good. They lead to uncertainty. Uncertainty leads to people thinking they can win, which results in fights.
JUSTK is recruiting.
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Stalence
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
37
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Posted - 2015.02.20 17:00:26 -
[25] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Novice = 20VP Small = 20VP Medium = 20VP Large = 20VP
= total of 80VP
My proposal;
Novice = 10VP Small = 15VP Medium = 20VP Large = 35VP
= total of 80VP
No changes to timers or LP payout is required.
This does 2 things. It slightly reduces the impact of low SP alts on occupancy. It also means the side that controls the larger plexes can make progress against a side that will not ship up past corms. Progress also reflects time and risk spend inside plexes.
I am 100% on board with this idea. How do we actually make this happen? |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1363
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 17:55:22 -
[26] - Quote
Epikurus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:The novice and small plexes can be completed more often than a large. So over time the rate that small and novice plexes are completed should more than cancel out the large. If one side controls the large AND the medium then very slow progress will be made, but without figuring out the numbers my gut is telling me it will take so long to make progress while ignoring the novice and smalls that there will be sufficient incentive to ship for them.
I think the additional numbers of novice and small plexes is a bit less significant. Assuming that the plexes are all popped as soon as they spawn the cycle time from completion to spawn to completion is 40 mins for a novice, 45 mins for a small and 50 mins for mediums and larges. Assuming we start with one of each spawned and they are all completed in optimal time, after 3 hours and 50 minutes 5 novices will have been completed, 4.5 smalls and 4 of each of the mediums and larges. So in just under four hours there are 100 VPs available for novices, 90 for smalls and 80 each for the bigger ones. That gives a very, very slight edge (30 VP in four hours or c. 7.5 VP/hour) to someone who can win all the novices and smalls but none of the meds and larges. If your suggested VP changes were implemented the value of the novices across this period would drop to 50 VP and the smalls to 67.5, dropping the 4 hour total from 190 VP to 117.5. The mediums would stay at 80 VP and the larges would rocket up to 140, making the larges alone worth considerably more than the novices and smalls together while the meds and larges together would be worth nearly twice the value of the novices and small together (220 vs 117.5) even accounting for the slightly greater frequency of novices and smalls. So we would have a swing from the current 7.5 VP an hour edge for the side that wins all the smalls to a 25 VP an hour edge for the side who wins all the meds and larges. Edit: If we change novices to 15 VP, keep smalls and meds at 20 and raise larges to 25 then over 4 hours the novices and smalls would collectively be worth 165 (75+90) while the meds and larges would be worth 180, giving the kind of edge to the bigger plexes that might be more in line with what you are looking for. Personally, though, I still think the edge should lie with the smaller ones as this means we avoid a foregone conclusion (no matter how slow) from dominating with the big toys.
Agreed, my only comment is you are foucssing on an unlikely scenario where one side is happy to sit in the meds and larges for an entire push and not contest the smaller ones. I dont really find this realistic. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
5
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 18:22:51 -
[27] - Quote
I think it should be like this:
Novice - (same as it is now) Small - (same as it is now) Medium - (T1 Cruisers and down, no T2 cruisers) Large - T2 Battlecruisers and down Unrestricted - Everything
Small plexes should continue to be quick to capture, and give small boosts towards flipping the system Large plexes should take longer than small plexes to flip, however they provide a bigger boost towards flipping the system.
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Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
76
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Posted - 2015.02.20 19:33:25 -
[28] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Agreed, my only comment is you are foucssing on an unlikely scenario where one side is happy to sit in the meds and larges for an entire push and not contest the smaller ones. I dont really find this realistic.
Sure - I don't doubt that the dominant force would also contest the smaller plexes. The issue is that the force that can't contest the meds and larges has little to no motivation to contest the smaller ones either as they have already lost the system. All they can do is make winning the system a little more painful but they can't prevent it. At the moment you can just about, in theory, take or hold a system if you can manage to win all of the novices and smalls so there is no definitive shipping level that can, by itself, guarantee a victory.
If we think about the situation when GalMil took the war zone, during that push the GalMil Ishtar fleet had no opposition - CalMil just couldn't field anything that could compete with it. If we were to change the equation so that it no longer skews towards smalls and novices then that one fleet comp would have been sufficient to take the whole warzone and CalMil would have had no motivation to even attempt to stop the sweep if they were unable to field something that could challenge that fleet. Trying to persuade guys to plex the novices and smalls just so that the foregone conclusion would be reached more slowly would have rapidly become untenable and the battle for control would have been much less interesting. |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
427
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 19:43:34 -
[29] - Quote
Going back a bit further in history we have a brave few GalMil pilots stopping Evoke from capturing Eha by using the kind of small ship harassment tactics we are discussing. I find myself in agreement that if we weighted Medium and Large plexes to have more impact on system capture that than Novice / Small we *would* see big Nullsec blocs exerting more influence.
On the other hand, maybe that's the only way the Squids will ever try to take our Fortress systems ever again? |
Alli Ginthur
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
43
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Posted - 2015.02.20 19:45:47 -
[30] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Epikurus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:The novice and small plexes can be completed more often than a large. So over time the rate that small and novice plexes are completed should more than cancel out the large. If one side controls the large AND the medium then very slow progress will be made, but without figuring out the numbers my gut is telling me it will take so long to make progress while ignoring the novice and smalls that there will be sufficient incentive to ship for them.
I think the additional numbers of novice and small plexes is a bit less significant. Assuming that the plexes are all popped as soon as they spawn the cycle time from completion to spawn to completion is 40 mins for a novice, 45 mins for a small and 50 mins for mediums and larges. Assuming we start with one of each spawned and they are all completed in optimal time, after 3 hours and 50 minutes 5 novices will have been completed, 4.5 smalls and 4 of each of the mediums and larges. So in just under four hours there are 100 VPs available for novices, 90 for smalls and 80 each for the bigger ones. That gives a very, very slight edge (30 VP in four hours or c. 7.5 VP/hour) to someone who can win all the novices and smalls but none of the meds and larges. If your suggested VP changes were implemented the value of the novices across this period would drop to 50 VP and the smalls to 67.5, dropping the 4 hour total from 190 VP to 117.5. The mediums would stay at 80 VP and the larges would rocket up to 140, making the larges alone worth considerably more than the novices and smalls together while the meds and larges together would be worth nearly twice the value of the novices and small together (220 vs 117.5) even accounting for the slightly greater frequency of novices and smalls. So we would have a swing from the current 7.5 VP an hour edge for the side that wins all the smalls to a 25 VP an hour edge for the side who wins all the meds and larges. Edit: If we change novices to 15 VP, keep smalls and meds at 20 and raise larges to 25 then over 4 hours the novices and smalls would collectively be worth 165 (75+90) while the meds and larges would be worth 180, giving the kind of edge to the bigger plexes that might be more in line with what you are looking for. Personally, though, I still think the edge should lie with the smaller ones as this means we avoid a foregone conclusion (no matter how slow) from dominating with the big toys. Agreed, my only comment is you are foucssing on an unlikely scenario where one side is happy to sit in the meds and larges for an entire push and not contest the smaller ones. I dont really find this realistic.
Sure, even in this numbers scenario it would be much faster to reship and take the others, but being able to mass enough to forbid any contesting of the bigger plexes would lead to not having a reason for the other side to fight at all for any of the plexes, because theres no point when you cant stem the tide from the bigger plexes (although these would potentially be much juicier targets for the odd pirate group/bored null entity).
And yes, im sure there are ways to balance the exact numbers to avoid this, but as long as the mechanic favors taking the biggest plexes, everyone who can will focus on leveraging that edge, and everyone who cannot will lose their space until they get the pilots and skills to match those who can. This may not be a bad thing in that regard, this being EVE and all, but then this situation does sound an awful like another area of space that constantly complains about their mechanics heavily disincentivizing anything outside the biggest groups holding space. |
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