Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1363
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 19:48:33 -
[31] - Quote
Epikurus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: Agreed, my only comment is you are foucssing on an unlikely scenario where one side is happy to sit in the meds and larges for an entire push and not contest the smaller ones. I dont really find this realistic.
Sure - I don't doubt that the dominant force would also contest the smaller plexes. The issue is that the force that can't contest the meds and larges has little to no motivation to contest the smaller ones either as they have already lost the system. All they can do is make winning the system a little more painful but they can't prevent it. At the moment you can just about, in theory, take or hold a system if you can manage to win all of the novices and smalls so there is no definitive shipping level that can, by itself, guarantee a victory. If we think about the situation when GalMil took the war zone, during that push the GalMil Ishtar fleet had no opposition - CalMil just couldn't field anything that could compete with it. If we were to change the equation so that it no longer skews towards smalls and novices then that one fleet comp would have been sufficient to take the whole warzone and CalMil would have had no motivation to even attempt to stop the sweep if they were unable to field something that could challenge that fleet. Trying to persuade guys to plex the novices and smalls just so that the foregone conclusion would be reached more slowly would have rapidly become untenable and the battle for control would have been much less interesting.
You argument applies just as much now if one side is dominant. Well, calmil might not feel motivated to fight while at a disadvantage anyway.
IMO no attack will be made on the basis of holding the larger plexes. Or the smaller ones. Taking a system already takes days. Under this strategy you would be looking at a much longer timescale even with a change to VP.
I dont know about your guys but if were sat in a med with enough numbers to have a go at the novice, it would be hard to tell people to just sit in their cruisers or hte next 30 minutes doing nothing when there is targets in system. Youd be lucky to get 10 people in fleet with that sort of plan.
It is a wholly unrealistic scenario. |
Veli ANDAC
X U T H U S
19
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 22:59:33 -
[32] - Quote
There's a clear ship class usage imbalance in current game mechanics for low security systems.
I'll evaluate this for a low sec solo/small gang player's eyes.
The Issue
- Lack of ship usage of Battlecruisers and Battleships.
Ship class usage depends on 3 major factors for FW low sec systems:
- Warp speeds - FW plex ship class restrictions - Logistic ships usage
Warp speeds
Current warp speeds for cruiser and below it seems ok. Battlecruisers and Battleships still too slow for roaming and reacting. Engine speeds and locking times may be configure aswell.
FW plex ship class restrictions
In my opinion Battlecruisers (BCs) definitely need accelerate gated FW plexes. Accelerate gated plexes give some tactical advantages for related ships. BCs not powerfull (except T2) as BSs. They need some mechanic support.
Logistic ships usage
Logistic ships always a main issue for solo/small gang players. It reduces your limited abilities against a fleet. Especially T1 Logistic ships are overpowered in current meta. T2 should be consider aswell.
Solutions
- Give a little warp speed increase for Battlecruisers and Battleships. - Redesing ship class restrictions for Medium and Large Plexes. Create accelerate gated FW plexes for BSc. - Reduce Logistic ship repairer bonuses.
|
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
722
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 23:27:14 -
[33] - Quote
I'm still struggling with the idea of *WHY* we need to create a mechanic that encourages / forces us to use Battlecruisers specifically.
Making a gated plex for BCs and down doesn't make us use BCs, it's just another gated plex that we ship into the right type of ship for the job. Even if someone brings BCs, it's still dependent on cruiser logi which is a lot squishier than the BCs they'll be supporting. It'd basically be suicide to warp in on a brawling BC gang - logi would never make it off the warpin and wouldn't be able to hold.
I get why people want to go back to the old days to some extent, but realistically BCs still have some uses. The issue is that they're generally outclassed in those roles - T3s are more tanky, BS do more damage and are more tanky, etc etc etc.
I see no reason to create a mechanic in FW to specifically support a ship class like BCs.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1363
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 23:49:44 -
[34] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:I'm still struggling with the idea of *WHY* we need to create a mechanic that encourages / forces us to use Battlecruisers specifically.
Making a gated plex for BCs and down doesn't make us use BCs, it's just another gated plex that we ship into the right type of ship for the job. Even if someone brings BCs, it's still dependent on cruiser logi which is a lot squishier than the BCs they'll be supporting. It'd basically be suicide to warp in on a brawling BC gang - logi would never make it off the warpin and wouldn't be able to hold.
I get why people want to go back to the old days to some extent, but realistically BCs still have some uses. The issue is that they're generally outclassed in those roles - T3s are more tanky, BS do more damage and are more tanky, etc etc etc.
I see no reason to create a mechanic in FW to specifically support a ship class like BCs.
I can sum up OP into 'because megathron'.
Sorry juls but there are already plenty of ways to get megas into fights as i have said. Battleships and battlecruisers were crap when the best you could expect was 1 or 2 engagements per night from doing the loops or running up and down the pipes a few times.
In smaller ships, if someone sets a goal and pulls the trigger we can have shorter lower ehp and isk intensive fights literally all night. Sometimes 23 hour per day. Whats not to like really? Pixel elitism?
The problem with BS/BC is magnified by the fact that they cost many times more now than they did back then and are just not suitable for a great FW mechanic that rewards those that keep their boot on the enemies neck rather than dull sec mechanics that reward turning up at a predetermined time for a terrible mess of tidi.
Though from thinking about things said in this thread i do think rebalancing plexes to be even across the board (all plexes reward the same VP over time, whatever numbers that dictates). |
Veli ANDAC
X U T H U S
19
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 00:07:58 -
[35] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:I'm still struggling with the idea of *WHY* we need to create a mechanic that encourages / forces us to use Battlecruisers specifically.
The idea isn't about a create forcing mechanic that usage of BCs. It focuses on balancing in related mechanic.
Quote:Making a gated plex for BCs and down doesn't make us use BCs, it's just another gated plex that we ship into the right type of ship for the job.
You miss the point of BCs specifications don't fit for unrestricted large FW plexes. Beside I can't see any problem bringing BCs in a gated plex for capturing? Long time ago it was like that and it worked well untill CCP changed it.
Quote:I see no reason to create a mechanic in FW to specifically support a ship class like BCs.
This depends your game style. Not only FW players using those mechanics also non FW players are using them for PVP.
|
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
722
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 02:31:43 -
[36] - Quote
Veli ANDAC wrote:You miss the point of BCs specifications don't fit for unrestricted large FW plexes. Beside I can't see any problem bringing BCs in a gated plex for capturing? Long time ago it was like that and it worked well untill CCP changed it. BCs do fine in ungated larges. They munch Cruisers on down just fine. No reason to create a super special game reserve for BCs.
Quote:This depends your game style. Not only FW players using those mechanics also non FW players are using them for PVP. I'm pretty much fundamentally opposed to balancing FW mechanics around the needs / desires of random neutrals.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
|
ValentinaDLM
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
590
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 02:54:55 -
[37] - Quote
Not sure I want to fight napoc blobs in plexes already setup at range with logi and t3 support.... Honestly the fact is at the moment big stuff is still useful, even if it is less common than frigs. I mean last night we were in Prophicies fighting typhoon fleet issues and other assorted stuff.... We tried to fight in a large plex and they wouldn't so we fought on a gate (we are mostly outlaw they weren't so they wanted gate guns in the mix I guess). These fights do happen, and they are fun when they do but if FW was all about faction battleships then I am a lot less interested. |
Veli ANDAC
X U T H U S
19
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 03:18:38 -
[38] - Quote
Quote:BCs do fine in ungated larges. They munch Cruisers on down just fine. No reason to create a super special game reserve for BCs.
As I said before in my first post, I evaluated this subject for a low sec solo/small gang player's eyes. Vice versa you are deciding it your side which is fleet warfare. You may right with that circumtances BUT If you try a solo BC in a ungated large plex you can clearly notice the issues. The fact, you won't get the same disadvantages in a frigate/destroyer due to ship class restrictions. That's the my main point which should be look into. FW isn't all about fleet warfare it includes also solo and small gang PVP. |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
242
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 13:57:13 -
[39] - Quote
The bigger issue behind the FW and the "plague of small ships running around" does have a direct correlation with system capture and flexing. As many have already made it very clear in this thread, having a smaller ship sized fleet is better because you can find fights in all of the plexes.
What the OP is saying about making mediums and to a larger extent larges more relevant so that you find bigger ships in them does hold merit, but I don't think readjusting them to make the larges and mediums for that matter more valuable isn't going to change anything. As others have said, just because it can let larger ships in doesn't mean larger ships are going to be used. That has more to do with players mentality and you can't just change that; i.e. I brought a Domi to run a large plex and was greeted to squids reshipping to cruisers, BCs, and a T3 to fight 1 BS (they had 9 come).
The solo heaven is still there in the FW zone, but changing the plex mechanics to make bigger ships more valuable isn't going to work because people are becoming/have already become to risk adverse (whatever the reason that may be....inflation, nerfed incomes, crappy insurance, etc).
The answer you're looking for is probably increasing the range of the bubble so that larger ships have more room to position themselves for a fight; i.e. I can bring a cruise raven and sit 70km off the warp in, but still within range of capturing the plex. Now I can position myself that doesn't automatically make me have to be brawl fit since I can't really outrun anything when I'm already "at 0". I know this has an adverse effect on farmers being able to run plexus from further out (essentially always being out of point range from everything and means Force Recons are completely useless in FW
--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
|
Plato Forko
Forko Nanorobotics
130
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 09:02:32 -
[40] - Quote
^ the main point of a gate would be to prevent hotdropping. the issue is that BCs are niche and if you add a mechanic that encourages more use, it will just draw major pirate alliances back into the warzone and they will continue to **** and pillage in T2-T3 cruiser gangs as they used to, and that will force the BCs back into the hangars and they will only be deployed as quick muscle at a nearby gate just like they are being used already.
There's nothin' like skating away from a fight with the hull on fire, some mods burned out and a cargohold full of loot.
See my terribad blog for stories.
|
|
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
727
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 16:08:12 -
[41] - Quote
Plato Forko wrote:^ the main point of a gate would be to prevent hotdropping. the issue is that BCs are niche and if you add a mechanic that encourages more use, it will just draw major pirate alliances back into the warzone and they will continue to **** and pillage in T2-T3 cruiser gangs as they used to, and that will force the BCs back into the hangars and they will only be deployed as quick muscle at a nearby gate just like they are being used already. Large Plexes are already Deadspace areas, you can't cyno in there either.
Again, I don't see why we should be changing FW plex mechanics just so that non-FW pilots feel comfortable bringing in larger ships. There's no compelling reason to make this change other than folks not being willing to put a BC/BS at risk unless they can totally control the engagement terms.
Sack up already.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
|
Erehwon Rorschach
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
133
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 13:03:42 -
[42] - Quote
Not sure if it's been said....
What about ship size specific sites?
Like a Cruiser only, Battleship only, Battlecruiser only but the incentive would come from it rewarding the winners with a higher % towards the holding/taking of the system.
They'd have to be random. Maybe have a setting where if the system goes 60% contested or over then they will randomly become available?
Because your mum just couldn't say no.
|
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
727
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 13:13:37 -
[43] - Quote
Erehwon Rorschach wrote:Not sure if it's been said....
What about ship size specific sites?
Like a Cruiser only, Battleship only, Battlecruiser only but the incentive would come from it rewarding the winners with a higher % towards the holding/taking of the system.
They'd have to be random. Maybe have a setting where if the system goes 60% contested or over then they will randomly become available?
Again, not sure why we need them. And again, making it unbalanced so larger plexes count more means that systems go to those who are willing to ship up bigger than the other guy. There'd be no incentive to fly anything smaller, since even if your opponent captured all the smaller plexes they couldn't stop you from taking the system.
It'd turn into nullsec, only with Battleships in place of Supercarriers.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
|
Zen Lena
8
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 18:34:32 -
[44] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Erehwon Rorschach wrote:Not sure if it's been said....
What about ship size specific sites?
Like a Cruiser only, Battleship only, Battlecruiser only but the incentive would come from it rewarding the winners with a higher % towards the holding/taking of the system.
They'd have to be random. Maybe have a setting where if the system goes 60% contested or over then they will randomly become available?
It'd turn into nullsec, only with Battleships in place of Supercarriers.
Then that wouldn't make it nullsec. Poor analysis by using apples to oranges comparison. Not sure why you're so risk averse to bigger ships in lowsec. It just means more pvp opportunities for all playstyles |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
730
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 18:58:46 -
[45] - Quote
Zen Lena wrote:[Then that wouldn't make it nullsec. Poor analysis by using apples to oranges comparison. Not sure why you're so risk averse to bigger ships in lowsec. It just means more pvp opportunities for all playstyles You're welcome to fly whatever you like in lowsec. I've lost HACs, T3s, Battleships... all kinds of stuff. It's not risk averse to not fly large stuff when there's very little in lowsec (and FW in particular) that requires the larger ships.
You get by in 90% of use cases with something smaller. Which is why you see a lot of smaller ships being used.
There's targets and fights where the proper ship to use is a BC/BS/T3. Which is when people fly the BC/BS/T3. Just because there's no specific FW plex that REQUIRES the use of those hulls doesn't mean it doesn't happen - it means it happens when they need to be used.
Pro Tip - if you want BC/BS fights, hit targets that require the owner to respond with those kind of hulls, and you'll get the fight you want.
People asking for a mechanic change to force players to fly they way they want them to are lazy. You've already got the tools to get the fights you want, use them.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
|
Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis
247
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 19:01:30 -
[46] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Erehwon Rorschach wrote:Not sure if it's been said....
What about ship size specific sites?
Like a Cruiser only, Battleship only, Battlecruiser only but the incentive would come from it rewarding the winners with a higher % towards the holding/taking of the system.
They'd have to be random. Maybe have a setting where if the system goes 60% contested or over then they will randomly become available?
Again, not sure why we need them. And again, making it unbalanced so larger plexes count more means that systems go to those who are willing to ship up bigger than the other guy. There'd be no incentive to fly anything smaller, since even if your opponent captured all the smaller plexes they couldn't stop you from taking the system. It'd turn into nullsec, only with Battleships in place of Supercarriers.
Why not balance it so that every plex counted the same, accounting for time spent in it? My issue is that larger ships are really just outside of the ship lexicon for a lot of FW pilots. I realize it's not as much an issue for us but that's because we're a coalition of groups that have been working together for ages. Pilots who are outside the group have really no incentive or need to be able to fly anything bigger, which maybe works for them, but ultimately it makes it harder to integrate these people into the mainstay militia groups because they're not used to flying bigger doctrines. It's even a problem among the bigger groups because when we do use larger ship types, a lot of pilots simply don't understand how to fly them properly in a fleet because (and yes I'm being charitable here) they rarely use them.
Even in my corp, which is a militia mainstay, a lot of guys groan when we do system pushes because it basically means the largest thing they'll fly is an Ishtar, and even that isn't that common. At the moment, the plex war favors the side who has the most numbers, because an opposing side that brings cruisers to counter the dessy blob gets sandbagged from inside the smalls and novices. Generally, the only way to truly eliminate a numbers advantage is to upship, but with the plex restrictions, and the weighting off novices/smalls vs. mediums/larges, the outnumbered side really has no opportunity to even the fight a bit by upshipping. At least by weighting the mediums/larges towards the more impactful end of the spectrum would mean that you would have to seriously weaken your force to be able to contest even 3 of the 4 plex types, whereas now, upshipping really doesn't help you all that much.
I guess my issue is really that the weight of the VPs per plex overincentivizes certain fleet comps. I want FW play to include all ship types effortlessly, instead of us having to essentially go outside the FW framework to (lets be honest here) have infrequent fights with larger ship types. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
427
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 19:32:57 -
[47] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:
I guess my issue is really that the weight of the VPs per plex overincentivizes certain fleet comps. I want FW play to include all ship types effortlessly, instead of us having to essentially go outside the FW framework to (lets be honest here) have infrequent fights with larger ship types.
We wouldn't have taken Okkamon without HACs and Guardians. With the Large plex respawn mechanics now there is quite a bit more demand for hulls that can tank vs 30+ sniper corms. At the end of the day though, if you get pulled into 50+ vs 50+ system grinds with thousands of ships getting blown up bringing T2 Battleships and carriers to large plexes will only get you so far.
Additionally, comps that can "Hold the button" and comps that can Snipe are going to dominate in that arena, and it is generally going to be the ones that do it the best for the cost (Sniper corms for instance).
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2800
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 19:41:35 -
[48] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:I guess my issue is really that the weight of the VPs per plex overincentivizes certain fleet comps. I want FW play to include all ship types effortlessly, instead of us having to essentially go outside the FW framework to (lets be honest here) have infrequent fights with larger ship types. IMO smaller ships are preferred for three reasons: 1. Cost 2. Logistics 3. Smaller ships can enter larger plexes, but not vice-versa.
This is not a bad thing. Larger-sized ship fights can happen at POCOs and POSes, for example. However, it would be nice if there was a BC/BS sized plex that was immune to hot drops so guys could "Get their BS on" without looking over their shoulder all the time. Something like an already-existing deadspace anomaly that is currently used for exploration farming.
JUSTK is recruiting.
|
Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis
247
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 20:39:09 -
[49] - Quote
I think it is a bad thing for the reasons I've already stated. I don't see any reason why fleet comps should be weighted towards smaller ships through incentives rather than the incentives creating more diverse fleet comps. It's not going to kill off small ship combat in system pushes. If anything, it will encourage more small gang stuff as one side can't get the apex plex running force of dessies and frigs and just hide from any gangs with larger ship sizes until they leave. You'll have to contest at least 3 out of the 4 plex sizes to get anywhere. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1363
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 20:43:57 -
[50] - Quote
Bash poco/pos. Arrange batphone. Form precious BS for lame assed timer. See who has the biggest trump card. Loot or flea field. If you are lucky collect your 400m isk per month moon goo.
As far as plexing is concerned, there is not many people who have the isk to engage in a war of attrition with 200m + BS and 300m+ guardians. Im just gonna come right out and say it bluntly, theres more fun to be had and its more of a piloting challenge applying useful DPS with a derptron that it ever could be with a Megathron. Anyone that can fly a derptron well is basically a pro megathron pilot. But not ay all the other way round. |
|
Plato Forko
Forko Nanorobotics
132
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 20:46:18 -
[51] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Large Plexes are already Deadspace areas, you can't cyno in there either.
right, i knew that, had a brainfart :) i wonder though, has anyone tried grid manipulation around those large plexes?
There's nothin' like skating away from a fight with the hull on fire, some mods burned out and a cargohold full of loot.
See my terribad blog for stories.
|
Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis
247
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 20:52:56 -
[52] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Bash poco/pos. Arrange batphone. Form precious BS for lame assed timer. See who has the biggest trump card. Loot or flea field. If you are lucky collect your 400m isk per month moon goo.
As far as plexing is concerned, there is not many people who have the isk to engage in a war of attrition with 200m + BS and 300m+ guardians. Im just gonna come right out and say it bluntly, theres more fun to be had and its more of a piloting challenge to apply useful DPS with a derptron that it ever could be with a Megathron. Anyone that can fly a derptron well is basically a pro megathron pilot. But not ay all the other way round.
God I wish this were true lol. You should rewatch some of our pvp videos with bs fights. I find myself yelling at the screen constantly when I do. I still don't see why larger ships should be relegated to timer fights (which suck). Sure not everyone can finance those kind of losses, but we're talking about only 25% of the available plexes. It's not like you would be SOL assuming you couldn't afford to lose some BS (and I really don't think it would be that big a deal with insurance and no blingy fits).
We already use 200m+ HACs and 300m+ guardians for plex fighting, why are BS so different? |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1363
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 20:58:23 -
[53] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Bash poco/pos. Arrange batphone. Form precious BS for lame assed timer. See who has the biggest trump card. Loot or flea field. If you are lucky collect your 400m isk per month moon goo.
As far as plexing is concerned, there is not many people who have the isk to engage in a war of attrition with 200m + BS and 300m+ guardians. Im just gonna come right out and say it bluntly, theres more fun to be had and its more of a piloting challenge to apply useful DPS with a derptron that it ever could be with a Megathron. Anyone that can fly a derptron well is basically a pro megathron pilot. But not ay all the other way round. God I wish this were true lol. You should rewatch some of our pvp videos with bs fights. I find myself yelling at the screen constantly when I do. I still don't see why larger ships should be relegated to timer fights (which suck). Sure not everyone can finance those kind of losses, but we're talking about only 25% of the available plexes. It's not like you would be SOL assuming you couldn't afford to lose some BS (and I really don't think it would be that big a deal with insurance and no blingy fits). We already use 200m+ HACs and 300m+ guardians for plex fighting, why are BS so different?
Because unlike other objectives in eve that require you to form up as strong as you can for a pathetic laggy snoozefest at less than 10% game speed, faction was requires true occupancy and activity over a much longer timeframe. Its not realistic to expect people to bear to 3 hours per BS loss specially since they could be losing one every 50 minutes.
I know you want to show off that large blaster spec 5 but in all honesty there is a very strong reason why the meta is like it is and why no plex change will encourage wide spread use of larger hulls without changes to cost / warpspeed / 30-50man easy mode t3 gangs cynoing in to 3rd party during the 10 minute trip to cover 2 jumps back to the target system.
People need to get over the pixel envy. |
Zen Lena
8
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 18:32:19 -
[54] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Veskrashen wrote:Erehwon Rorschach wrote:Not sure if it's been said....
What about ship size specific sites?
Like a Cruiser only, Battleship only, Battlecruiser only but the incentive would come from it rewarding the winners with a higher % towards the holding/taking of the system.
They'd have to be random. Maybe have a setting where if the system goes 60% contested or over then they will randomly become available?
Again, not sure why we need them. And again, making it unbalanced so larger plexes count more means that systems go to those who are willing to ship up bigger than the other guy. There'd be no incentive to fly anything smaller, since even if your opponent captured all the smaller plexes they couldn't stop you from taking the system. It'd turn into nullsec, only with Battleships in place of Supercarriers. Why not balance it so that every plex counted the same, accounting for time spent in it? My issue is that larger ships are really just outside of the ship lexicon for a lot of FW pilots. I realize it's not as much an issue for us but that's because we're a coalition of groups that have been working together for ages. Pilots who are outside the group have really no incentive or need to be able to fly anything bigger, which maybe works for them, but ultimately it makes it harder to integrate these people into the mainstay militia groups because they're not used to flying bigger doctrines. It's even a problem among the bigger groups because when we do use larger ship types, a lot of pilots simply don't understand how to fly them properly in a fleet because (and yes I'm being charitable here) they rarely use them. Even in my corp, which is a militia mainstay, a lot of guys groan when we do system pushes because it basically means the largest thing they'll fly is an Ishtar, and even that isn't that common. At the moment, the plex war favors the side who has the most numbers, because an opposing side that brings cruisers to counter the dessy blob gets sandbagged from inside the smalls and novices. Generally, the only way to truly eliminate a numbers advantage is to upship, but with the plex restrictions, and the weighting off novices/smalls vs. mediums/larges, the outnumbered side really has no opportunity to even the fight a bit by upshipping. At least by weighting the mediums/larges towards the more impactful end of the spectrum would mean that you would have to seriously weaken your force to be able to contest even 3 of the 4 plex types, whereas now, upshipping really doesn't help you all that much. I guess my issue is really that the weight of the VPs per plex overincentivizes certain fleet comps. I want FW play to include all ship types effortlessly, instead of us having to essentially go outside the FW framework to (lets be honest here) have infrequent fights with larger ship types.
You have nice ideas but I was in FW for half a year and I can confidently say that a plex change won't encourage pilots to get into bigger ships.
The mindset of a FW pilot is different from that of lowsec or nullsec pilots. Both good and bad.
Didn't CCP make it so that medium plexes would allow T2 HACs inside about a year ago? And then they buffed NPC rats so that you had to get a bigger ship with more DPS. How much have those changes encouraged bigger ships? Probably a bit. But never enough to the satisfaction of pilots who want bigger ship fights.
My observation is that FW pilots are highly focused on their KB efficiency and so are *generally* speaking, averse to bigger stuff which makes them look bad. I hear it all the time on fleet comms. I also noticed that there are alot of Gallente corps who do logistics for other pilots. This is really great to helping integrate newer and younger pilots into your militia. But the downside is that they are now dependent upon you guys to give them ships all the time. I was in a couple of your fleets and I was shocked to see you guys having to give out Cruisers, HACs and logistics to pilots because they were too lazy to bring their own in. That's just embarrassing. This along with other issues is part of the reason you won't get the constant big ship fights you are wanting. Just accept FW for what it's meant to be; constant small ship battles. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
428
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 18:46:55 -
[55] - Quote
Zen Lena wrote:I was in a couple of your fleets and I was shocked to see you guys having to give out Cruisers, HACs and logistics to pilots because they were too lazy to bring their own in.
Just off the top of my head here's a few reasons we do it that way.
1. Conformity to standard. You should see some of the fits people bring if they fit their own ships.
2. Activity in the Warzone. The more people in space plexing and pewing the better. If everyone did their own logistics from T1 frigs through Caps, in the quantities we run through ships it would eat up a ton of time.
3. Cost:. Not everyone can afford to keep 5-10 Billion isk tied up in hulls so that they can meet every single comp that is flown.
4. People without alts. They can't get to Jita and buy all the hulls and modules they need. |
Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
413
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 19:19:39 -
[56] - Quote
I think it is smart to have a wide variety of ships to play with and ship to whatever the situation dictates. There is no reason not to have a doctrine for it because not all situations dictate it. There is no reason why GalMil shouldn't have a NavyMega doctrine and use it when needed. For example last month when we dropped Legions on a POS you guys were hitting with Ishtars. We were outside quick reship range and standard capital support range. If GalMil would've shipped too short range Megas and brawled us the fight wouldve been in their favor, instead they docked up screamed blue in local and smack came from both sides. While this doesn't apply to plex fights I think it would be smart to open up the array of ships that you have to use, not everyone is ok using the standard atron/ishtar combo all the time, and players should be rewarded for the desire to ship up for the occasion. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
428
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 19:30:19 -
[57] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:I think it is smart to have a wide variety of ships to play with and ship to whatever the situation dictates. There is no reason not to have a doctrine for it because not all situations dictate it. There is no reason why GalMil shouldn't have a NavyMega doctrine and use it when needed. For example last month when we dropped Legions on a POS you guys were hitting with Ishtars. We were outside quick reship range and standard capital support range. If GalMil would've shipped too short range Megas and brawled us the fight wouldve been in their favor, instead they docked up screamed blue in local and smack came from both sides. While this doesn't apply to plex fights I think it would be smart to open up the array of ships that you have to use, not everyone is ok using the standard atron/ishtar combo all the time, and players should be rewarded for the desire to ship up for the occasion.
Sure, but where do you keep all the battleships? Eha? Nisuwa? Vlil? Nenna? etc. Do you stock them all in each system? Do you expect all members to keep one of each in all systems?
It's nice to say reship to X doctrine would have worked for X situation, but the nuts and bolts of getting it all rolling is tough. In addition, flying expensive ships, that have a limited ability to disengage, against groups with 20+ supers is just a bad idea 90% of the time unless you have a group on your side who can deal with them. |
Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
413
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 19:41:09 -
[58] - Quote
You make it sound like this isn't an issue that was solved before plex changes when BS/BC roams were a norm, the small ship plague only happened since the plex changes. In fact it is now easier for a player who doesn't have the sp or the time to mission to make isk because of plex payouts. When I was in GalMil I had BS (that weren't fdu LP) in Nis/Nenna/Vlill. Saying you "cant" do it is either 1)lazy 2)lack confidence in your pilots 3)lack confidence in your logistical chain. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
428
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 19:47:20 -
[59] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:You make it sound like this isn't an issue that was solved before plex changes when BS/BC roams were a norm, the small ship plague only happened since the plex changes. In fact it is now easier for a player who doesn't have the sp or the time to mission to make isk because of plex payouts. When I was in GalMil I had BS (that weren't fdu LP) in Nis/Nenna/Vlill. Saying you "cant" do it is either 1)lazy 2)lack confidence in your pilots 3)lack confidence in your logistical chain.
I didn't say we can't do it, I just said it was tough. |
Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
413
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 19:53:40 -
[60] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Dread Operative wrote:You make it sound like this isn't an issue that was solved before plex changes when BS/BC roams were a norm, the small ship plague only happened since the plex changes. In fact it is now easier for a player who doesn't have the sp or the time to mission to make isk because of plex payouts. When I was in GalMil I had BS (that weren't fdu LP) in Nis/Nenna/Vlill. Saying you "cant" do it is either 1)lazy 2)lack confidence in your pilots 3)lack confidence in your logistical chain. I didn't say we can't do it, I just said it wasn't simple.
And people should get rewarded for putting in the effort. Corp Hanger provides logi so that will always be covered and pilots spend ~200m (Ishtar price) each to have assets in staged systems that could give you a strategic advantage. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |