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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
428
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Posted - 2015.02.24 19:57:29 -
[61] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Dread Operative wrote:You make it sound like this isn't an issue that was solved before plex changes when BS/BC roams were a norm, the small ship plague only happened since the plex changes. In fact it is now easier for a player who doesn't have the sp or the time to mission to make isk because of plex payouts. When I was in GalMil I had BS (that weren't fdu LP) in Nis/Nenna/Vlill. Saying you "cant" do it is either 1)lazy 2)lack confidence in your pilots 3)lack confidence in your logistical chain. I didn't say we can't do it, I just said it wasn't simple. And people should get rewarded for putting in the effort. Corp Hanger provides logi so that will always be covered and pilots spend ~200m (Ishtar price) each to have assets in staged systems that could give you a strategic advantage.
I think we do a decent job at getting/keeping the ships where we need them for strategic advantage (look at the warzone map).
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Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
413
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Posted - 2015.02.24 20:03:14 -
[62] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Dread Operative wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Dread Operative wrote:You make it sound like this isn't an issue that was solved before plex changes when BS/BC roams were a norm, the small ship plague only happened since the plex changes. In fact it is now easier for a player who doesn't have the sp or the time to mission to make isk because of plex payouts. When I was in GalMil I had BS (that weren't fdu LP) in Nis/Nenna/Vlill. Saying you "cant" do it is either 1)lazy 2)lack confidence in your pilots 3)lack confidence in your logistical chain. I didn't say we can't do it, I just said it wasn't simple. And people should get rewarded for putting in the effort. Corp Hanger provides logi so that will always be covered and pilots spend ~200m (Ishtar price) each to have assets in staged systems that could give you a strategic advantage. I think we do a decent job at getting/keeping the ships where we need them for strategic advantage (look at the warzone map). Exactly, so there is no reason not to up your game a little and reward those that are willing too. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
734
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 20:10:22 -
[63] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:I didn't say we can't do it, I just said it was tough. And of course, as last week's brawl in Martoh shows, even if we reship to counter your Legion / Macharial comp (which we did with brawling Megas), you're still able to overcomp us (coming back with Navy Megas + Blap Dreads + Triage). There's a limit to what each group can field quickly in any particular area of space, after all. Those of us who spend all week fighting instead of running incursions and don't have the luxury of dropping 20+ Triage with Nyxes whenever fights go against us have different limitations than other groups with fewer commitments.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
428
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Posted - 2015.02.24 20:24:19 -
[64] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:Exactly, so there is no reason not to up your game a little and reward those that are willing too.
Up my game in what way? I've been attempting to get better at flying a variety of Algos fits and having a blast!
If you meant gal mil in general, in what way would you like us to up our game? Switch from system control to a cap/super focused entity? That isn't "upping" our game its switching our play style entirely. There have been groups in the past in FW who have done it, but they don't seem to last.
Alternatively, why doesn't SNUFF up their game and join the Caldari?
Competition breeds improvements. If you want people to compete with in the cap/super arena why don't you scout around and find a group of similar size and setup a timer fight with them? I hear SC is nearby. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1367
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Posted - 2015.02.24 20:38:00 -
[65] - Quote
Dread operative and many others in snufd can be seem most days running DED space sites while people in FW are having fun. Something tells me he is struggling with the work / life balance.
It must be pretty easy though being told when to undock and get to the titan. But limiting. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
429
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Posted - 2015.02.24 21:37:10 -
[66] - Quote
Nothing wrong with doing DED sites. I quite enjoy the RNG drop feeling when you don't get screwed. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1369
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Posted - 2015.02.24 22:11:07 -
[67] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Nothing wrong with doing DED sites. I quite enjoy the RNG drop feeling when you don't get screwed.
Didnt say there was, but FW doesnt work if everyone is doing PvE or playing other games for the majority of their time. Perhaps its fine if you have nothing to do most evenings but camp a gate or wait for your FC to tell that there is a fleet within jump range that you can outnumber and outship with no risk while at the same time thinking you are actually doing something hard :) |
Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
413
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Posted - 2015.02.25 03:33:35 -
[68] - Quote
Crosi joins the conversation and the trash talking commences, surprise surprise.
I almost believe him/Perunga/Dumbmar are the same person with split personalities. |
Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
413
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Posted - 2015.02.25 03:37:00 -
[69] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote: If you meant gal mil in general, in what way would you like us to up our game? Switch from system control to a cap/super focused entity? That isn't "upping" our game its switching our play style entirely. There have been groups in the past in FW who have done it, but they don't seem to last.
I meant in relations to being able and willing to up ship to larger plexs if they were worth more. (This conversation is about Plex mechanics right? Or did I miss the mark?) |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
737
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 12:25:07 -
[70] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:I meant in relations to being able and willing to up ship to larger plexs if they were worth more. (This conversation is about Plex mechanics right? Or did I miss the mark?) Things kind of got sidetracked once the conversation turned to shipping up to counter your guys.
At the moment, we already field comps that CalMil generally cannot counter. Moving to BC/BS size plexes wouldn't give them any advantages on that front, and given that we're already willing to field BS / HICs / drop caps to try and beat your folks I doubt there'd be much consternation doing that to flip a system.
The biggest problems are a) accessibility, b) sustainability, and c) "apex force" issues.
A new player can get into T2 fit cruisers within about 3 months, and be able to compete within fleets by that point. He can essentially contribute to every single level of conflict in FW. If there's a new plex that "requires" the use of BS, that's another couple months to be able to fly well.
The next issue is cost. Most PvP oriented FW players (the ones who would need to ship up since non-PvP will avoid contested plexes) are used to flying ships in the 5-40 mil range, and most often in the 2-20 range. This range gives you T1/T2 fitted frigates, destroyers, and faction frigates which can access and succeed at 95%+ of FW content. Most folks don't roam the WZs in T2 kitted Cruisers unless they're in a fleet.
Moving that bar up to the 200-300mil / hull level is an order of magnitude increase, and something a lot of folks will balk at. Lowsec logistics for small ships (on the individual level) is difficult enough; moving to BS level logistics is even harder. Most general militia wouldn't be able to cope with the logistical burden having to keep 5-10 fully fitted BS on hand in lowsec, and a good number of PvP corps wouldn't either.
In addition, PvP oriented FW corps are out flying and losing ships 24/7. Lowsec pirate groups have no systems to maintain, nothing to push, no need to fight unless they want to. They can freely spend their weekdays running DED sites and incursions, while the rest of us fight to keep our homes. That ability to run PvE the majority of the time gives you a lot larger war chest on average, with a lot lower burn rate.
Finally, the "apex force" issue. If larger plexes are worth more, system (and warzone) control goes to the side that is willing and able to ship up the highest and sustain that the longest. We took the WZ last time because we were able and willing to run armor HAC fleets when needed - not even all the time, just when needed. That was enough to create a situation where CalMil was simply unable to counter a comp, which meant that we could essentially take systems at will. The same would be true at the BS level - we're already flying BS against your crew in open field engagements where we don't dictate the terms of engagement. Flying BS fleets against CalMil in plexes would be a cakewalk in comparison - no offense to CalMil, they've got excellent pilots, but it'd be a brutal learning curve for them.
That would essentially turn FW into nullsec - whoever had the biggest fleet of the largest ships and was willing to deploy them the most often would own the WZ, and their opponents wouldn't be able to do a damn thing.
That, I think, would be a very sorry state of affairs indeed.
FW lowsec is a unique animal, and CCP made some very savvy design decisions when creating it. We've got a plex available to do what the OP and others want - encourage larger ships such as BS/BC, without the risk of Hotdrops'r'Us. The fact that the FW corporations who are most active in occupancy warfare haven't made that move doesn't have anything to do with "not stepping up". It's that as FW corporations who do FW occupancy warfare, we understand far better the stresses that it would impose and the difficulty of having two sides who would be able to compete on that level. We've dealt with the months of stagnation that resulted from the last time we chose to up the occupancy warfare meta (by moving to armor HACs), and I don't think anyone really wants to go back to that anytime soon.
BC/BS plexing comps will happen, if it makes sense to do so. It'll happen with both sides in a WZ decide that they can both competently field such comps and sustain them during a major grind. It'll happen when one side decides that doing it will let them compete against unfavorable odds.
No need to force the issue before it's time.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1370
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Posted - 2015.02.25 14:31:31 -
[71] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:Crosi joins the conversation and the trash talking commences, surprise surprise.
I almost believe him/Perunga/Dumbmar are the same person with split personalities.
Trash talk? You comment on fw gameplay, i comment on snufd gameplay. Dont blame me just because you guys are so very sensitive.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2800
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Posted - 2015.02.25 14:38:20 -
[72] - Quote
Zen Lena wrote: I was in a couple of your fleets and I was shocked to see you guys having to give out Cruisers, HACs and logistics to pilots because they were too lazy to bring their own in. That's just embarrassing. It's as if somebody figured out that it's just as efficient to buy 30 cruisers as it is buying one cruiser at one time.
Then somebody said "Hey, I bet I can help the team out by purchasing 30 cruisers at a time and hand them out rather than have 30 guys all buy one cruiser each."
Then somebody said "You won't go broke if you sell those ships to people in the fleet at a slight profit. Win/win. You make some isk, and everybody has more time for pew!"
And then some other dude said "AND everybody will be in the right ship! No downside!"
This increased efficiency/productivity thing is embarrassing indeed!
JUSTK is recruiting.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2800
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Posted - 2015.02.25 14:43:05 -
[73] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:I think it is smart to have a wide variety of ships to play with and ship to whatever the situation dictates. There is no reason not to have a doctrine for it because not all situations dictate it. There is no reason why GalMil shouldn't have a NavyMega doctrine and use it when needed. For example last month when we dropped Legions on a POS you guys were hitting with Ishtars. We were outside quick reship range and standard capital support range. If GalMil would've shipped too short range Megas and brawled us the fight wouldve been in their favor, instead they docked up screamed blue in local and smack came from both sides. While this doesn't apply to plex fights I think it would be smart to open up the array of ships that you have to use, not everyone is ok using the standard atron/ishtar combo all the time, and players should be rewarded for the desire to ship up for the occasion. Woah for a minute there I thought you were talking about the time a couple weeks ago where you showed up in a Legion fleet and we DID reship to Megas. You guys ran while we caught and podded a Legion pilot stuck on the warp bubble. In the end, no brawl.
JUSTK is recruiting.
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
430
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Posted - 2015.02.25 15:19:11 -
[74] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote: If you meant gal mil in general, in what way would you like us to up our game? Switch from system control to a cap/super focused entity? That isn't "upping" our game its switching our play style entirely. There have been groups in the past in FW who have done it, but they don't seem to last.
I meant in relations to being able and willing to up ship to larger plexs if they were worth more. (This conversation is about Plex mechanics right? Or did I miss the mark?)
Got yah. With regards to larges and using ships with a larger tank than HACs, it isn't currently necessary because Cal Mil can't compete at that ship size.
If Cal mil starts bringing comps where we need to have Battleship sized tanks, then battleships we shall bring. |
Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
414
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Posted - 2015.02.25 16:43:12 -
[75] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Dread Operative wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote: If you meant gal mil in general, in what way would you like us to up our game? Switch from system control to a cap/super focused entity? That isn't "upping" our game its switching our play style entirely. There have been groups in the past in FW who have done it, but they don't seem to last.
I meant in relations to being able and willing to up ship to larger plexs if they were worth more. (This conversation is about Plex mechanics right? Or did I miss the mark?) Got yah. With regards to larges and using ships with a larger tank than HACs, it isn't currently necessary because Cal Mil can't compete at that ship size. If Cal mil starts bringing comps where we need to have Battleship sized tanks, then battleships we shall bring.
Fair enough. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
741
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 23:34:57 -
[76] - Quote
Regarding upshipping to counter larger numbers...
There is definitely some valid concerns brought up by Julius Foederatus and others about assaulting or holding plexes against significantly superior numbers. Given roughly equal fleet sizes, the side with the best comp and best logi / ewar pilots will generally come out on top. Past a certain point, however, the numbers disparity means that either you won't be able to break their logi or they will be able to simply blow through whatever logi you bring along.
This is exacerbated in FW by two phenomenon: ship restrictions based on plex size, and the fact that the attacker will always start the fight at zero on the warp-in. This means that a defender will almost always be able to dictate the initial engagement range, which is why high damage brawling comps are so common in system assaults. Once you reach a certain fleet size, however, you easily cross the "alpha wall" and logi can become almost irrelevant.
In 2013-14, GalMil was generally at a significant numbers disadvantage. Having to defend Eha against TEST blobs day in and day out forced us to adapt to that reality, which we did via long range harassment comps. Sniper Kestrels and Sniper Cormorants allowed our pilots to murder the relatively lower-skilled TEST pilots from beyond their ability to counter, which forced them to mass up on the beacons and simply eat the losses to capture the plex. This tended to significantly decrease the rate at which they could increase the system contested percentage, which bought us time to even the odds.
When we went on the offensive, we had to face those numbers the other way around - having to assault into greater numbers with logi support we wouldn't be able to DPS through. Thus, we adopted attrition alpha doctrines to breach the plex, blast away enough more expensive ships, then quickly reship to force the remaining fleet out with a more conventional fleet comp. This worked well enough for a long time.
Eventually, CalMIl adapted, and we started facing fleets with greater numbers than we could hold with conventional comps. There's a natural limit to how much EHP and logi power you can put into each plex due to ship restrictions. At the time, ungated and unrestricted Large plexes weren't in the regular rotation, and thus weren't a factor.
We developed doctrines for the Novices that worked very well - our Armor Tristans were the bane of CalMIl during several system assaults. Smalls oscillated between Armor Algos / Dragoons, to Sniper Cormorants, to Derp Cats, to Breaching Coraxes as the situation demanded. Mediums, though, became a big issue - our Armor Vexors were good, but CalMil was able to field large enough Blaster Moa fleets that our logi wasn't holding.
That's when we started the shift to Armor Ishtars. The additional EHP and resistances bought our logi the time they'd need to stabilize, and we were able to compete against the larger CalMil fleets.
Right now, CalMil has doctrines that are competitive with ours for most plexes. They've started bringing Harpy fleets that make Smalls very difficult to contest, they have plenty of Sniper Kestrel / Cormorant pilots to compete with our kiting doctrines. Mediums are still a bit of a toss-up, though the Hasmijaala push saw them start to field Basilisks to support their Moas and Harpies, which significantly increases their engagement envelope.
As Novices are limited to T1 frigates, and it's difficult to tank a T1 frigate past about 9k EHP without boosts, those plexes will always be a charnal house. There's simply no real option to ship up into that would be survivable enough. 20 Kestrels gives you about a 14k alpha using T1 launchers, which can potentially reach out to 80+km if you want it to. That fleet size is very easy to reach, when the Hasmijaala fleets regularly hit 40+.
Smalls seem to be a bit better proposition, but the issue is that there hasn't really been a survivable platform for that either. Dessies can get 10-12k EHP pretty easily, but even double MSE Harpies only hit about 16k EHP before boosts. Since Smalls open up the potential for Coraxes and Talwars, you have to deal with alphas of about 1100 per ship - meaning your 20 man fleet is now throwing about 22k alpha, more than enough to erase pretty much anything you can put into a Small plex. There's few new kiting options - Sniper Corms up your engagement range to about 90km+, but everything else is pretty limited. Once again, defending against a larger fleet means trying to kite at extreme range while they sit on the warpin.
Mediums are where things change. It takes a much larger fleet to alpha a 40k EHP cruiser, and there's a much larger delta between basic T1 - Navy - T2 cruisers. T2 Logistics Cruisers are miles ahead of T1 cruiser logi, and far more survivable. HACs are at least 2x as tough as T1 cruisers. This is where a smaller group could conceivably overship to take on long odds - below this size, it's very very difficult indeed.
Adding Larges in the mix does offer some interesting possibilities, of course. Combat BCs can potentially offer HAC levels of DPS and tank for roughly half the cost - and the fact that there's no gate gives kiting comps a lot more freedom to choose the initial engagement range. At the moment, however, neither side has been inclined to add yet another class of plex doctrines to take advantage of this, as the high end comps for Smalls and Mediums seem to be working fine so far. That said, we've already seen instances where Carriers, Dreads and Faction BS have been fielded in Larges, and there's nothing preventing a defender from warping in Triage Carriers to support his cruiser fleet if he starts to lose.
Should CCP rebalance AFs to be significantly tankier, that could potentially offer new options for Smalls, but the Talwar/Corax alpha is tough to balance around. Until someone really starts to push the Large meta, however, I don't think we'll see shiny new doctrines...
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
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Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
414
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Posted - 2015.02.26 01:36:47 -
[77] - Quote
This could be fun for smalls.
[Confessor, Range] 400mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II Tracking Enhancer I Damage Control II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script 1MN Afterburner II
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S [empty high slot]
Small Anti-Thermic Pump I Small Anti-Kinetic Pump I Small Energy Locus Coordinator II
With Legion boosts and defensive mode 23.9k ehp Sharpshooter mode: 142 dps @ 65+4.4k. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
741
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 03:29:36 -
[78] - Quote
Shield Svipuls get even brickier, though they don't have the same projection as the beam Confessor does. However, that basically just moves the "alpha wall" from 20 dudes in Talwars / Coraxes up to around 25-30 dudes in Talwars / Coraxes. Since the difficulty is finding something survivable enough to counter large numbers of baddies, that doesn't really help things much.
They are, without a doubt, hands down far better than AFs in every way at a fairly minimal increase in cost. Find a way to break up alpha fleets and you've got a potential solution.
Being able to sustain flying 70-80mil Tactical Dessies is another issue of course, especially in the context of system invasions where 1500-2000 ships per day go boom. The two week long Hasmijaala push saw almost 100 billion isk of ships destroyed for example.
Guess that's a roundabout way of saying T3 Dessies are a possible solution, but the counter is already widely fielded, and sustainability over a full push would be difficult given attrition rates.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1371
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Posted - 2015.02.26 03:48:07 -
[79] - Quote
Its hard theory crafting new FW doctrines when the principal ethos of your alliance is to disengage and run away or drop 20 archons at the first sign on losing a ship. |
Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
414
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Posted - 2015.02.26 04:54:44 -
[80] - Quote
I'm pretty sure the new caldari t3d is going to be the snarpy replacment, can't wait to see it. |
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Aiyshimin
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
404
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Posted - 2015.02.26 11:41:34 -
[81] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Zen Lena wrote:[Then that wouldn't make it nullsec. Poor analysis by using apples to oranges comparison. Not sure why you're so risk averse to bigger ships in lowsec. It just means more pvp opportunities for all playstyles You're welcome to fly whatever you like in lowsec. I've lost HACs, T3s, Battleships... all kinds of stuff. It's not risk averse to not fly large stuff when there's very little in lowsec (and FW in particular) that requires the larger ships. You get by in 90% of use cases with something smaller. Which is why you see a lot of smaller ships being used. There's targets and fights where the proper ship to use is a BC/BS/T3. Which is when people fly the BC/BS/T3. Just because there's no specific FW plex that REQUIRES the use of those hulls doesn't mean it doesn't happen - it means it happens when they need to be used. Pro Tip - if you want BC/BS fights, hit targets that require the owner to respond with those kind of hulls, and you'll get the fight you want. People asking for a mechanic change to force players to fly they way they want them to are lazy. You've already got the tools to get the fights you want, use them.
You're not thinking this straight- you say that people don't fly big ships because there's no reason to, but that reason is exactly what people are suggesting.
And furthermore it's not an accident that FW lowsec is about small ships- it's direct result of the existence of novice and small plexes- you have to fly a frigate if you want fights, mechanics are forcing people to fly ships that can get to the targets.
However, like mentioned earlier in this thread, BCs are also **** and they wouldn't be used in BC plexes over cruisers, they simply don't bring anything to the table and would just get raped by OP **** like Orthuses.
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
741
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 13:14:05 -
[82] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:You're not thinking this straight- you say that people don't fly big ships because there's no reason to, but that reason is exactly what people are suggesting. The problem is that what is being proposed is adding more plexes with gates that accomodate larger ships. That's not a reason to use BC/BS, unless there's something in those plexes that requires the use of ships that big. In addition, forcing the use of larger ships via game mechanic has incredible knock-on effects due to sustainability. Unlike nullbears and piwats, we don't just PvP on occassion for a few hour long fleet - we're fighting constantly. That means we go through hulls like candy, especially in system pushes. You're ignoring the logistical burdens and the impacts on WZ control that come with making larger plexes more valuable.
Quote:And furthermore it's not an accident that FW lowsec is about small ships- it's direct result of the existence of novice and small plexes- you have to fly a frigate if you want fights, mechanics are forcing people to fly ships that can get to the targets.
However, like mentioned earlier in this thread, BCs are also **** and they wouldn't be used in BC plexes over cruisers, they simply don't bring anything to the table and would just get raped by OP **** like Orthuses. FW is about small ships because it's the one area of EVE where you can actually be effective in small ships on a regular basis. There's no special snowflake scenario that has to happen for your T1 frigate to be effective. You're free to roam and fight in BS/BC/HAC/T3 all you want, and you will get fights. But you're not required to do so in order to be competitive in the WZ - and that's a very very good thing indeed.
Not everyone wants to play a game where the price of admission is a Command Ship / T3 / BS. Let us have the game we love and go back to nullbearing.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
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Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
414
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Posted - 2015.02.26 15:04:52 -
[83] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Not everyone wants to play a game where the price of admission is.... You say this, but this thread was made by a FW guy about the biggest gripe, so it seems some people feel slightly differently. I am not bashing smaller sized fleet comps, I know perfectly well it's effectiveness and how much fun it is (and I have alts in FW to still do it regularly) but some people still crave more. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1371
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 15:33:37 -
[84] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:Veskrashen wrote:Not everyone wants to play a game where the price of admission is.... You say this, but this thread was made by a FW guy about the biggest gripe, so it seems some people feel slightly differently. I am not bashing smaller sized fleet comps, I know perfectly well it's effectiveness and how much fun it is (and I have alts in FW to still do it regularly) but some people still crave more.
The OP can be summed up as 'the only ship i ever want to fly is a megathron'.
I dont see many other people griping. |
Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis
247
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Posted - 2015.02.26 16:52:20 -
[85] - Quote
I haven't logged in to pew in the past month since I've been studying for the bar exam. Just took that ****** yesterday, so I can actually get in and shoot some people's faces. I think you're being a bit uncharitable with what I'm suggesting here Crosi. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have more larger ship combat during FW system pushes, and have that incentivized by the system, instead of discouraged indirectly like it is now.
Your entire argument atm is "I like FW just the way it is, so clearly there is no need for any improvement, despite what anyone else thinks." Clearly, it's lacking a little something :). Doesn't it make you wonder why we constantly bleed players out of our organization despite the incredibly long standing and resilient community we have here? A lot of them just want to use different sized ships and do different play styles. I'm not saying we should make FW the end game here, but there's no reason we shouldn't encourage larger engagements.
I get that you don't like it, but you're just one guy, and if the best argument you've got against it is that you think large ship pvp is lame, well, that's just like, your opinion man. |
Arla Sarain
318
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 17:35:05 -
[86] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote: Your entire argument atm is "I like FW just the way it is, so clearly there is no need for any improvement, despite what anyone else thinks."
Pretty sure that's not his argument.
If a lot of people that are bled out want to use big ships they already can and people already do that.
In which case it prolly means that they are bled out for entirely different reasons other than not having a BS size plex for them to sit in whilst their enemy can't compete and then blame them for being "too stubborn to upship". |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1372
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Posted - 2015.02.26 17:44:44 -
[87] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:I haven't logged in to pew in the past month since I've been studying for the bar exam. Just took that ****** yesterday, so I can actually get in and shoot some people's faces. I think you're being a bit uncharitable with what I'm suggesting here Crosi. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have more larger ship combat during FW system pushes, and have that incentivized by the system, instead of discouraged indirectly like it is now.
Your entire argument atm is "I like FW just the way it is, so clearly there is no need for any improvement, despite what anyone else thinks." Clearly, it's lacking a little something :). Doesn't it make you wonder why we constantly bleed players out of our organization despite the incredibly long standing and resilient community we have here? A lot of them just want to use different sized ships and do different play styles. I'm not saying we should make FW the end game here, but there's no reason we shouldn't encourage larger engagements.
I get that you don't like it, but you're just one guy, and if the best argument you've got against it is that you think large ship pvp is lame, well, that's just like, your opinion man.
Truly my argument is 'bring whatever ship you want'. But dont ask for the mechanics to change to further accommodate your megathron since it already has a place in the plexes.
Essentially, we are already have great running battles that can span hours or days. Punctuating those with lengthy and risky reships to a class that can only run 1 size plex is inefficient. UNLESS, squids field something that requires it. The possibility of that happening is just as likely now as it would be after any change to plexes.
Changing VP payouts to fall directly in line with the time it takes to complete a plex would be a good change though and would address the current problem of novices and smalls yielding faster progress than the meds and larges. |
Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
414
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Posted - 2015.02.26 18:36:57 -
[88] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Doesn't it make you wonder why we constantly bleed players out of our organization despite the incredibly long standing and resilient community we have here? A lot of them just want to use different sized ships and do different play styles.
That's exactly why I left. The way I saw it was it is easier to put my +100 sp main into a BS pew pew corp, then get or train a low SP character that can do cruiser pew pew and do both. It's not like I don't solo or run small gang stuff, I've put myself in a position that I can do both.
FW is an amazing beast that I love dearly, would be interesting to see what small changes would do to dynamics (larges being worth more VP for example). |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
435
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Posted - 2015.02.26 19:03:12 -
[89] - Quote
Do you think that BC brawls against CalMil in a special plex would have scratched that itch sufficiently? |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
743
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Posted - 2015.02.26 22:45:01 -
[90] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:Doesn't it make you wonder why we constantly bleed players out of our organization despite the incredibly long standing and resilient community we have here? A lot of them just want to use different sized ships and do different play styles. That's exactly why I left. The way I saw it was it is easier to put my +100 sp main into a BS pew pew corp, then get or train a low SP character that can do cruiser pew pew and do both. It's not like I don't solo or run small gang stuff, I've put myself in a position that I can do both. FW is an amazing beast that I love dearly, would be interesting to see what small changes would do to dynamics (larges being worth more VP for example). I get it, I really do. After a while you want to stretch your limits beyond solo stuff and plex warfare, and bigger badder ships is the way a lot of folks choose to do it.
I'm just doubtful that changing FW plex mechanics to achieve that goal - by forcing / "incentivizing" the use of larger ships - is the way to go. I feel there's too many negative consequences from such a move that would leave the warzone more stagnant, and that would essentially lock general militia folks out from having any real meaningful role in WZ control. We'd essentially be relegating them to farming for LP via missions and plexes, without having a notable effect on system contested percentages.
It'd also give a huge boost to defensive plexing, since any mechanic that introduces larger plexes with higher LP payouts, which are also worth more VP, would still be able to be run by unfitted empty T1 frigates on 1 day old plexing alts. That's definitely not a mechanic that needs to be encouraged any more than it already is.
Like a lot of folks have said, there's a place in FW for BC/BS at the moment - taking down strategic structures. The issue there is your crew and others like it, to be honest - no reason to field BS just to have you drop faction BS with triage and supers on standby. If ya'll would quit hillariously overcomping everything that came out to fight, you'd probably see BS/BC get a lot more use.
The jump isn't just from cruisers / HACs up to BC/BS, it's from Cruisers / HACs to Faction BS + Triage + Blap Dreads + Supercarriers. The fact that BC/BS aren't worth fielding if you can't counter the inevitable escalation is the bigger issue - folks might even use them more often in ongoing system pushes to lock down Larges if they weren't such a big draw for all the neutral crews around.7
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
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