Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Omniwing
Omnicorps
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
For 800mm autocannon, I've been using hail, republic fleet phased plasma, or republic fleet fusion. I have 3 tracking enhancers and 1 tracking computer with tracking speed script and I still 'barely scratch' battleships that are 64 km out...shouldn't I be getting perfect his on them? |
Omniwing
Omnicorps
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
This is not a troll attempt or anything, its just my Mach isn't destroying stuff as quickly as I thought it would. Does it matter if I have minmatar and gallente battleship at 4 instead of 5? My other gunnery skills are pretty good and i'm using T2 guns. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
123
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Omniwing wrote:For 800mm autocannon, I've been using hail, republic fleet phased plasma, or republic fleet fusion. I have 3 tracking enhancers and 1 tracking computer with tracking speed script and I still 'barely scratch' battleships that are 64 km out...shouldn't I be getting perfect his on them?
Nope. Especially if you're using the tracking script. Swap that for optimal and you'll start to see better hits.
See, hit quality degrades based on falloff. The further past optimal you get, the lower the hit quality (or to be technical, the further in to falloff you get, the lower the hit quality, as extending falloff -- and thereby lowering the percent falloff of your actual range -- also helps).
See here for lots of details. |
Substantia Nigra
NFI industrial Revival Of The Talocan Empire
175
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
I run T1 (faction) 800mm autocannons in my mission-runner mach, shooting plain ol' phased plasma ammo, and that seems to work fine. I am BS3 for both min and gal. My mission-runner alt (BS 5 for both) uses blast and T2 800s which, again, works fine. Neither of us bothers changing ammo for the different types of mission rats. It would prolly speed things up a little but we're not keen on the fiddle-factor.
We've never used hail.
From memory I don't think we melt baddies at 64km, but they certainly start hurting bigtime once they're 50km away.
Our machs run 3 x gyro and 3 x tracking enhancers in their lows, and no tracking / targeting mods in their midslots ... just tank and prop mods there.
We can build and sell pretty much every ship. Check my bio for details. Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread |
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
145
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Use T1 ammo of course, T2 and Faction is just too costly, you shouldn't need Barrage with the speed of the Mach and shoot the closest stuff first to do the most damage 5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!-á If You Like My Sig, Like Me! |
Omniwing
Omnicorps
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hm ok...I'll try using T1 Phased Plasma and optimal range tracking computer, and see if that helps.
Any other suggestions from Mach-flying specialists on how to do level 4s the best way is welcome. I used to fly a Tengu and it was pretty EZ mode and I thought a mach would be faster but it doesn't seem so. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
181
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Omniwing wrote:Hm ok...I'll try using T1 Phased Plasma and optimal range tracking computer, and see if that helps.
Any other suggestions from Mach-flying specialists on how to do level 4s the best way is welcome. I used to fly a Tengu and it was pretty EZ mode and I thought a mach would be faster but it doesn't seem so. Use an AB/MWD to get closer and get Barrage. Barrage is the reason to use autocannons, they add additional falloff. Combining some speed and a Barrage, you can fly the Mach like a cruiser to get in close to chew things up with T1 short range ammo but start with barrage at longer ranges (primarly use the barrage to take out scram/webbing frigs and EWAR cruisers if you can). I started with a Mach before I was able to get a Vargur, now I just use the Mach to do Serp Blockade which I used to hate and just get extra close to those dampers |
Flakey Foont
Republic University Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
A Mach with a tracking computer???/ Just get in there and fight that's why it is a fast ship with a vast tank...use drones for frigs. |
Aethlyn
54
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 10:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm usually using Fusion and Phased Plasma (depending on enemies). Didn't try T2 ammo since Crucible. Before I didn't feel like it's worth the money, but not sure how that changed now. Looking for more thoughts? Read my blog or follow me on Twitter. |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery Team Liquid
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Don't bother using T2 ammo. Use faction ammo if you're blitzing, standard t1 ammo if you're all-clearing. Use a optimal range script on your tracking computer. Get trajectory analysis to IV if you haven't already. Use an MWD to move around faster. |
|
Omniwing
Omnicorps
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
So I'm confused. People are telling me to get inclose, but when I use my tactical layout and hover over my weapons it shows my range at like 60k like there are 3 bubbles and the 2nd last two are at 60k and 70k...I thought I was supposed to hit stuff at 60k, not close?
Edit: I tried barrage L and *HOLY ***** does that make a difference! I'm like, 1 shotting some things now. WAYYYYYY better than hail... |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
127
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 17:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Omniwing wrote:So I thought that at 50% past your falloff and 50% under your optimal you lose accuracy. My guns say 4223m optimal and 61k falloff. So, I thought that meant that between 4223m and 64k I should be doing 100% damage, but this is not the case?
No. See the link I posted for details, but basically there are two factors at work (three I'd we want to throw in signature, but let's not for now). The first is tracking, which has no direct relationship to optimal OR falloff. If your gun can track as well or better than your relative angular velocity vis-a-vis your target, you hit. If not, you suffer a miss chance and a hit quality reduction (these are related, but let's skip on just how to keep it simple).
Second, you have range. IF YOU CAN TRACK, any shot within your optimal will hit. Outside of optimal we hit falloff, which slowly (at least for ACs; not so slowly for pulse lasers) degrades both your hit chance and your hit quality. At optimal plus falloff you do circa 40% damage on average due to how these factors combine. The decline is not linear, so at optimal plus half falloff your damage is still decent (again, providing you can track your targets).
By scripting your TC for tracking, you likely weren't changing your hit quality one bit (you could already track just fine). By scripting for range, you increase your optimal and your falloff, which means your targets aren't as deep into your falloff envelope, hence you hit more frequently and with better quality. |
Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
162
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 17:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
BCs and small will still melt in a few rounds at long distance, up to your maximum falloff range.
Personally I run a 4Gyro/3TE setup. Battleships are a pain to hit at long range with Faction shortrange ammo, Barrage is a better pick. Once they get within 40km though they pop relativly quickly.
Your tracking won't really get much better using a TC in the mids, if you're going to keep it, use an optimal script.
Alternativly if you want to shred through things, go for an Artillery Mach, lower DPS due to the cycle time, but when you're instapopping battleships with 12k volley then it's hardly a concern. |
agrajag119
GeoCorp. Gentlemen's Agreement
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 18:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
A mach runs missions much like a tengu honestly. The big change to remember is to *not* move. Just sit there, seriously.
The falloff scripted computer advice earlier is sounds, as is the t1 phased plasma / fusion (angels).
As you warp in, target the frigs first and try to blow them up before they get in close. You should be be able to knock most of them out, the rest get to meet your drones.
From there move on up the ship size ladder to dessies \ cruisers \ bc's \ bs's. The idea here is to kill all the smaller stuff while they are still running straight at you, which means nearly zero transversal. That effectively takes tracking out of the hit equation, which means frigs will get vollied. |
Omniwing
Omnicorps
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 23:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
After running with both, I'm leaning towards the Tengu being better...it just seems like it kills stuff in the same amount of time but a lot easier (no tank worries, no range worries) |
salty alt
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 08:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Omniwing wrote:After running with both, I'm leaning towards the Tengu being better...it just seems like it kills stuff in the same amount of time but a lot easier (no tank worries, no range worries) you're doing it wrong!
There is no way that a Tengu is faster. Its a good mission ship and true is alot more of a 'forget about me' ship, but doesnt compete with an actively piloted Mach.
Machs shine when fitted with 4 x faction gyros, 3 x TE, MWD and XL burst tanks. No need for Tracking Comp in the mids - if you handle your range properly you will track and apply *alot* of DPS. I used to use a Tracking Comp but it had no effect in reality and dropped it for a 15km web but it could be anything in that slot really.
As the other posters say. Warp in, remain still (or directly approach individual frigs), aggress and shoot scrambling / webbing frigs as they come at you. Deal with them and then just blap. You can kill rats out to 70km but your best kill zone is around 20km so MWD pulse to this and you will track everything. Leave the BS till last and then zoom up to them and orbit at optimal. Very rarely need to deploy drones. T2 / faction ammo is not cost efficient... use 5% hardwirings instead.
Two high sp alts in Machs makes me 120m+ isk / hour missioning. |
Omniwing
Omnicorps
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thank you Salty for your input. Liked you! |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 08:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
you cant expect huge dps on target that is 64k away thats almost @ the end of your falloff so you should try to close is as soon as possible or if you cant use barrage. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 09:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Flakey Foont wrote:A Mach with a tracking computer???/ Just get in there and fight that's why it is a fast ship with a vast tank...use drones for frigs.
>Mach >Vast tank |
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery Dead On Arrival Alliance
437
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 10:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Can the commenters in this thread please suggest why scripting a tracking computer for optimal, with weapons that operate in falloff, is a good idea? No? No?
No.
Either use it unscripted, or script it for tracking speed. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 11:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Can the commenters in this thread please suggest why scripting a tracking computer for optimal, with weapons that operate in falloff, is a good idea? No? No?
No.
Either use it unscripted, or script it for tracking speed.
Because your falloff is a function of your optimal...thus more optimal=more falloff.
Not that I think its a great idea putting a TC on a shield mach but still. |
Shinoe DeValo
Albidus Corvus Allianz Albidus Corvus
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 11:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Can the commenters in this thread please suggest why scripting a tracking computer for optimal, with weapons that operate in falloff, is a good idea? No? No?
No.
Either use it unscripted, or script it for tracking speed.
dude, did you even read the respective postings?
beyond optimal range, the hit-quality decreases continously until beyond fall-off limits. when you increase your optimal, you shift the declining curve of hit-quality farther away from you. meaning: you will get better hits over a larger distance.
since the ACs already have good tracking, you do not need to increase tracking. as long as the guns can keep up with your targets speed, why would you need more tracking on your guns? it's wasted. it is of no use if the guns can rotate faster then you target is circulating around you. of course, with fast targets you'll want even more tracking, but you'll also want to kill them asap anyway on their way towards you. and there you won't need tracking again.
the contrary is true for tachyon lasers (for example) where increasing optimal is not as essential as increasing tracking speed, since optimal is already good while tracking is beyond terrible. |
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery Dead On Arrival Alliance
438
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 13:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
*sigh*
I guess I need to use :numbers:
Typical mach (3 TE's)
Gives, on short range ammoz: No comp: 4.2 + 69 = 73.2 / 0.067 Comp w/ none: 4.3 + 72 = 76.3 / 0.073 Comp w/ optimal: 4.4 + 75 = 79.4 / 0.067 Comp w/ speed: 4.2 + 69 = 73.2 / 0.082
With the optimal script, you're enhancing your range by 8.4% With a tracking script, you're enhancing your tracking by 22.3%
You can't say "tracking is fine" and leave it at that, since you always lose hit chance based on transversal. Increasing your tracking mitigates that. You get more applied DPS.
If you want to see it in a graph: http://i40.tinypic.com/ok333d.png
tl;dr you apply a little more DPS at large ranges with the optimal script, but you apply significantly more DPS at ranges less than 50km, on most targets.
EDIT: use a mach against Angels - they rarely spawn or orbit past 30km. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Bibosikus
Elite United Hard Moose Moose Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 14:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:*sigh*
I guess I need to use :numbers:
Typical mach (3 TE's)
Gives, on short range ammoz: No comp: 4.2 + 69 = 73.2 / 0.067 Comp w/ none: 4.3 + 72 = 76.3 / 0.073 Comp w/ optimal: 4.4 + 75 = 79.4 / 0.067 Comp w/ speed: 4.2 + 69 = 73.2 / 0.082
/snip
This.
A standard mission fit Mach already has 3 TE's in the lows. A TC with optimal script gives you a paltry extra 0.2km on optimal. That does not, and never will, increase the dps curve for you to ever be applying significantly more damage in falloff. This is a common problem for pilots who first start using a Mach and haven't used projectile turrets before. Understanding the dps curve in falloff is never more important than at this point.
If you have to fit a TC, use a tracking script. Even after the 3xTE stacking penalty, you still get a significant wadge of the TC's 30% bonus.
That said, it's worth mentioning that the many varied Mach fits play to different styles of missioning. Some like to sit & pew. Others like to burn about, cruiser-style, and get close.
Experiment with your fit, based on your own (Tengu-stlye?) method of play. The Mach (& Nighmare) are, for me anyway, the fastest missioning boats in the game.
The box said "Requires Windows-á2000 or better", so I installed Linux. |
Ripper 5
White Mango
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 14:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Shinoe DeValo wrote:Khanh'rhh wrote:Can the commenters in this thread please suggest why scripting a tracking computer for optimal, with weapons that operate in falloff, is a good idea? No? No?
No.
Either use it unscripted, or script it for tracking speed. dude, did you even read the respective postings? beyond optimal range, the hit-quality decreases continously until beyond fall-off limits. when you increase your optimal, you shift the declining curve of hit-quality farther away from you. meaning: you will get better hits over a larger distance. since the ACs already have good tracking, you do not need to increase tracking. as long as the guns can keep up with your targets speed, why would you need more tracking on your guns? it's wasted. it is of no use if the guns can rotate faster then you target is circulating around you. of course, with fast targets you'll want even more tracking, but you'll also want to kill them asap anyway on their way towards you. and there you won't need tracking again. the contrary is true for tachyon lasers (for example) where increasing optimal is not as essential as increasing tracking speed, since optimal is already good while tracking is beyond terrible.
The norm is long range guns will have poor tracking and short range guns should be fine.
To simplify.
Optimal range = full damage
Optimal range + falloff = 40% dmg
Past Optimal range + falloff = drops very quickly
The smaller and faster a ship is the harder it will be to hit the closer it is. Hit small frigs before they get close. You can use a target painter to increase their size or a web to slow them down. Or drones prefered. Slower bigger ships work the same way but are slow enough and big enough on their own that you can sit right on top of them and hit no issues.
Basically with what you have you want to be right on top of the ships. I suggest a MWD.
|
Cipher Jones
126
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 19:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
With a Mach, Angels are your best prey, period.
If you want to shoot other baddies, its really the methodology as much as the fit.
1. You can instapop frigs and destroyers that are pretty far out. If there is a group of many ships, pop the little ones while the BS's slowboat in. Its angular velocity that makes you miss. a frig/dessie/cruiser headed strait at you is dead meat.
2. Get sentry II's. Run 4 of them and 5 mission appropriate light drones.
3. You can run 2 f-90's with tracking scripts for serpentis easily.
4. Make sure you have the correct ammo type for the mission, and of course drones.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Kesshisan
69
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 20:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
A Tracking Computer II with a Tracking Speed script* gives +0% Optimal and +0% Falloff A Tracking Computer II with no script* gives +7.5% Optimal and +15% Falloff A Tracking Computer II with an Optimal Range script gives +15% Optimal and +30% Falloff
Numbers before diminishing returns when applicable.
*Other bonuses are not mentioned.
. |
stoicfaux
390
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 19:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
Getting close is the key. For a 4.23+69.1km optimal/falloff gun, and ignoring tracking, being 10km closer will increase your effective DPS by ~10.5%.
Ignoring tracking, you're looking at doing the following effective DPS at various ranges: * at 100km - 38.3% of max DPS * at 90km - 42.3% * at 80km - 46.8% * at 70km - 51.7% * at 60km - 57.2% * at 50km - 63.2% * at 40km - 69.9% * at 30km - 85.4% * at 20km - 94.4%
The Mach is great because it has the speed to close the range quickly, especially if you fit an MWD. Speed -> reduces falloff -> increase effective DPS.
OTOH, if you just sit there in a Mach and deploy four sentries and let the NPCs come to you, hrmm... where's my spreadsheet?
edit: http://wiki.eve-id.net/Tracking (includes falloff)
Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
|
Ceti Lomax
Encina Technologies Namtz' aar K'in
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 19:31:00 -
[29] - Quote
Omniwing wrote:For 800mm autocannon, I've been using hail, republic fleet phased plasma, or republic fleet fusion. I have 3 tracking enhancers and 1 tracking computer with tracking speed script and I still 'barely scratch' battleships that are 64 km out...shouldn't I be getting perfect his on them?
I really don't see why you think autocannons loaded with Fusion or Phase Phasma ammo should give you optimal hits to 64km.
There is a 50% range penalty on short range ammo, and autocannons don't have great range to begin with. Try using Barrage, or some other longer range ammo.
|
Spineker
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 20:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
Why would you not use T2 ammo? cost or damage type? The DPS difference is huge between standard and T2 |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |