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Voidfinger
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
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Posted - 2011.12.01 22:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Okay I remember back when Incursion came out and they re-did the turrets for all factions but the Missiles and they said that they were almost done with them but just not in time for the release and they would be out shortly.
Well what happened? I mean, I'm cross trained into Caldari and would love to have actual missiles flying from my ships not just materializing in mid-air and out in front of my ship and I'm shooting 6+ missiles not a light blob lol.
I figured they were gonna wait till the next and I was okay with that but what happened CCP? Any from the community if you have knowledge please share it.
thanks Void |
Barakkus
1113
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Posted - 2011.12.01 22:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
People use missiles? |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2011.12.01 22:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
There was a thread somewhere saying that the programming logistics of making missile turrets work is too complicated |
Voidfinger
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
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Posted - 2011.12.01 22:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
J3ssica Alba wrote:There was a thread somewhere saying that the programming logistics of making missile turrets work is too complicated
Really??? more complicated that making a game where 30K people are on it at once and playing in a persistent universe with it's own player driven economy??? wow that must be one hell of a complication!
Not a programmer by any means but it shouldn't be too hard to make a static visual model of the missiles launching from location, converging a ways off launch point and then traveling to target like they do currently. I know that has been discussed before also and from what I've heard was a valid idea.
So in reality they have scrapped missile work all-together? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
208
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Posted - 2011.12.01 22:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Voidfinger wrote:J3ssica Alba wrote:There was a thread somewhere saying that the programming logistics of making missile turrets work is too complicated Really??? more complicated that making a game where 30K people are on it at once and playing in a persistent universe with it's own player driven economy??? wow that must be one hell of a complication! Not a programmer by any means but it shouldn't be too hard to make a static visual model of the missiles launching from location, converging a ways off launch point and then traveling to target like they do currently. I know that has been discussed before also and from what I've heard was a valid idea. So in reality they have scrapped missile work all-together?
Anyone who says that "it shouldn't be too hard" when referring to anything regarding computer programming hasn't taken even a basic course on the subject.
To add missile turrets the DEVs have to:
- retexture all ships with missile hardpoints (because the system currently doesn't know where to put said missile turrets if they are made). This means that A LOT of ships will have to be redone... some even redesigned because they have launchers "built-in" (ex. Drake, Scorpion, Crow, etc). And this is after they just re-textured two racial ship lines and then some.
- redo the graphics and physics of missiles launching so they can be seen coming out of individual launchers... which requires the DEVs to fool around with "Destiny," the base physics engine of EVE... which has a notorious reputation for being very fragile and inflexible.
- figure out how to keep the performance gains they have made with missiles over the years while making them work with the above two issues (missiles require significantly more processing power than turrets do and thus cause more lag... the "giant missile ball" that comes from 'linked' launchers cuts down on that problem significantly... the DEVs would have to figure out how to make multiple missiles launch from multiple launchers and turn into that same giant ball... or something close enough performance-wise to it.) "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Voidfinger
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
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Posted - 2011.12.01 22:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Voidfinger wrote:J3ssica Alba wrote:There was a thread somewhere saying that the programming logistics of making missile turrets work is too complicated Really??? more complicated that making a game where 30K people are on it at once and playing in a persistent universe with it's own player driven economy??? wow that must be one hell of a complication! Not a programmer by any means but it shouldn't be too hard to make a static visual model of the missiles launching from location, converging a ways off launch point and then traveling to target like they do currently. I know that has been discussed before also and from what I've heard was a valid idea. So in reality they have scrapped missile work all-together? Anyone who says that "it shouldn't be too hard" when referring to anything regarding computer programming hasn't taken even a basic course on the subject. To add missile turrets the DEVs have to: - retexture all ships with missile hardpoints (because the system currently doesn't know where to put said missile turrets if they are made). This means that A LOT of ships will have to be redone... some even redesigned because they have launchers "built-in" (ex. Drake, Scorpion, Crow, etc). And this is after they just re-textured two racial ship lines and then some. - redo the graphics and physics of missiles launching so they can be seen coming out of individual launchers... which requires the DEVs to fool around with "Destiny," the base physics engine of EVE... which has a notorious reputation for being very fragile and inflexible. - figure out how to keep the performance gains they have made with missiles over the years while making them work with the above two issues (missiles require significantly more processing power than turrets do and thus cause more lag... the "giant missile ball" that comes from 'linked' launchers cuts down on that problem significantly... the DEVs would have to figure out how to make multiple missiles launch from multiple launchers and turn into that same giant ball... or something close enough performance-wise to it.)
Yep, as I said I am no programmer even though I have some experience in it though limited, it was required for my degree in software info systems but anyway. I figure (to difficult) was meaning that we would rather not mess with it, since they have done wonders in the game that would have made the missile issue pale in comparison.
After playing two years I'd just rather wish they could do something to the missile boats, it seems too archaic and ugly to be in the same game as it is now.
Wish they wouldn't have said they were doing it then back out... would have rather them not said anything at all. |
KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
124
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Posted - 2011.12.01 22:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:- figure out how to keep the performance gains they have made with missiles over the years while making them work with the above two issues (missiles require significantly more processing power than turrets do and thus cause more lag... the "giant missile ball" that comes from 'linked' launchers cuts down on that problem significantly... the DEVs would have to figure out how to make multiple missiles launch from multiple launchers and turn into that same giant ball... or something close enough performance-wise to it.)
It should be possible to conceptually keep the missiles the same, and just change the way the client renders them. Missiles can be pretty much ignored by Destiny (the physic simulator, IIRC), and the server doesn't need to do any extra computation. As far as it's concerned, it's still a massive ball of missiles.
It has the trade off that not all clients will render the missiles in exactly the same place but tbh that's a non-issue. We only care that the missiles hit/missed/did damage, not whether we saw them all fly the same way.
Oh, and I have 5 years experience in computer programming. Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade SLAPD Director |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
23
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Posted - 2011.12.01 23:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Barakkus wrote:People use missiles?
I DO NOT!!!... oh, wait... yes I do... well then... um... carry on... |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
474
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Posted - 2011.12.01 23:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
eve's phsyics engine sees evrything as a ball. The mini balls comming out of a launcher instead of the center of a ship ball caused some interesting issues like self slingshotting the ship.
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Voidfinger
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
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Posted - 2011.12.03 19:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
So then, they have completely dropped the Missile Turret updates? |
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Xercodo
Xovoni Directorate Not Usually Killing Everyone.
204
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Posted - 2011.12.03 19:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Voidfinger wrote:So then, they have completely dropped the Missile Turret updates?
No, just that it'd take take like a year to do it. The Drake is a Lie |
Kasha Belle
On your Left you will See Mars
6
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Posted - 2011.12.03 19:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Why not have fixed missile launchers - one's that don't track /follow the target like turrets do.
Bigger ships get vertical or horizontal launchers like on an US Navy Aegis cruiser (think the game Homeworld did this). Small ships fire forward then the missiles turn and home in as well.
Easier but not as cool? |
Voidfinger
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
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Posted - 2011.12.03 19:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Xercodo wrote:Voidfinger wrote:So then, they have completely dropped the Missile Turret updates? No, just that it'd take take like a year to do it.
Oh that's cool, I was just hoping that they were still working on it and didn't just scrap it ... with everything else looking soooo much better I was hoping this was gonna get "updated" not necessarily fixed. |
Voidfinger
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
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Posted - 2011.12.03 19:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kasha Belle wrote:Why not have fixed missile launchers - one's that don't track /follow the target like turrets do.
Bigger ships get vertical or horizontal launchers like on an US Navy Aegis cruiser (think the game Homeworld did this). Small ships fire forward then the missiles turn and home in as well.
Easier but not as cool?
yeah not as cool would rather see that turret swivel around and track targets |
Alexandros Balfros
Liberty Rogues
10
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Posted - 2011.12.03 19:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
KFenn wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:- figure out how to keep the performance gains they have made with missiles over the years while making them work with the above two issues (missiles require significantly more processing power than turrets do and thus cause more lag... the "giant missile ball" that comes from 'linked' launchers cuts down on that problem significantly... the DEVs would have to figure out how to make multiple missiles launch from multiple launchers and turn into that same giant ball... or something close enough performance-wise to it.) It should be possible to conceptually keep the missiles the same, and just change the way the client renders them. Missiles can be pretty much ignored by Destiny (the physic simulator, IIRC), and the server doesn't need to do any extra computation. As far as it's concerned, it's still a massive ball of missiles. It has the trade off that not all clients will render the missiles in exactly the same place but tbh that's a non-issue. We only care that the missiles hit/missed/did damage, not whether we saw them all fly the same way. Oh, and I have 5 years experience in computer programming.
All good except for the part you mentioned, not all clients would render missiles in the same place, this would make using a smartbomb to destroy inbound missiles impossible, you would ruin a viable game mechanic just so you could have some cosmetic launchers that really had no link to the missiles you were actually shooting? |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
141
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Posted - 2011.12.03 20:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
J3ssica Alba wrote:There was a thread somewhere saying that the programming logistics of making missile turrets work is too complicated We've heard this said before about many of the Crucible features. Turns out CCP's 'too complicated' is an extremely relative concept. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
492
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Posted - 2011.12.03 20:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Last statement on the issue is that it would be, 'explored' for possibility during the next expansions meetings.
Which basically means is that is it phsyically possible to pull it off question. This was about 2 weeks ago too Ill try to find it.
|
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
7
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Posted - 2011.12.03 20:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Because, Missiles are a second class weapon system! |
Raven Ether
Republic University Minmatar Republic
60
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Posted - 2011.12.03 20:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: Anyone who says that "it shouldn't be too hard" when referring to anything regarding computer programming hasn't taken even a basic course on the subject.
To add missile turrets the DEVs have to:
- retexture all ships with missile hardpoints (because the system currently doesn't know where to put said missile turrets if they are made). This means that A LOT of ships will have to be redone... some even redesigned because they have launchers "built-in" (ex. Drake, Scorpion, Crow, etc). And this is after they just re-textured two racial ship lines and then some.
You don't retexture ships to add missile hardpoints, I guess you shouldn't be making remarks on other people's knowledge either.
and +1 to the OP, we want our new missile effects and launchers ccp, PLEASE. |
Super Chair
Hell's Revenge Flatline.
52
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Posted - 2011.12.03 20:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP is trolling misille users. Promise new misille turret animations, fail to deliver. Promise removal of penalties from T2 misilles, fail to deliver. |
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Opertone
Signal 7
30
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Posted - 2011.12.03 20:27:00 -
[21] - Quote
Missile port addition could be cool. It is very much needed on missile only ships.
New raven could be redone around this concept. Missile ejection bays.
Ships that desperately need beautiful bays.
1. Manticore 2. Raven 3. Drake 4. the other ammar HAC 5. Mallard
yeye, give some to Typhoon, cerb, merling and crow and let's be done with it. Not too much hard work. CCP can you? |
Raven Ether
Republic University Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
Make it happen CCP, I'll subscribe for a decade if you make them. |
Alexandros Balfros
Liberty Rogues
10
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Posted - 2011.12.03 20:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Raven Ether wrote:ShahFluffers wrote: Anyone who says that "it shouldn't be too hard" when referring to anything regarding computer programming hasn't taken even a basic course on the subject.
To add missile turrets the DEVs have to:
- retexture all ships with missile hardpoints (because the system currently doesn't know where to put said missile turrets if they are made). This means that A LOT of ships will have to be redone... some even redesigned because they have launchers "built-in" (ex. Drake, Scorpion, Crow, etc). And this is after they just re-textured two racial ship lines and then some.
You don't retexture ships to add missile hardpoints, I guess you shouldn't be making remarks on other people's knowledge either. and +1 to the OP, we want our new missile effects and launchers ccp, PLEASE.
No you're right you don't retexture them to add turrets, atleast not alone, on a number of ships mostly T2 you would need to remodel them completely to remove the fake launchers they have fitted, thank you for reminding us its not just a simple texture replace but a complex remodelling of a number of ships :) |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2011.12.03 21:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Voidfinger wrote:J3ssica Alba wrote:There was a thread somewhere saying that the programming logistics of making missile turrets work is too complicated Really??? more complicated that making a game where 30K people are on it at once and playing in a persistent universe with it's own player driven economy??? wow that must be one hell of a complication! Not a programmer by any means but it shouldn't be too hard to make a static visual model of the missiles launching from location, converging a ways off launch point and then traveling to target like they do currently. I know that has been discussed before also and from what I've heard was a valid idea. So in reality they have scrapped missile work all-together? Anyone who says that "it shouldn't be too hard" when referring to anything regarding computer programming hasn't taken even a basic course on the subject. To add missile turrets the DEVs have to: - retexture all ships with missile hardpoints (because the system currently doesn't know where to put said missile turrets if they are made). This means that A LOT of ships will have to be redone... some even redesigned because they have launchers "built-in" (ex. Drake, Scorpion, Crow, etc). And this is after they just re-textured two racial ship lines and then some. - redo the graphics and physics of missiles launching so they can be seen coming out of individual launchers... which requires the DEVs to fool around with "Destiny," the base physics engine of EVE... which has a notorious reputation for being very fragile and inflexible. - figure out how to keep the performance gains they have made with missiles over the years while making them work with the above two issues (missiles require significantly more processing power than turrets do and thus cause more lag... the "giant missile ball" that comes from 'linked' launchers cuts down on that problem significantly... the DEVs would have to figure out how to make multiple missiles launch from multiple launchers and turn into that same giant ball... or something close enough performance-wise to it.)
No... it is easier than that...
1. ALL ships have 8 HS points - put on 8x Salvagers (or less if they have less slots) and you will find them all)... then simply remodel and texture the Salvager into a Launcher - code that into the game - it then tracks when locked and looks like a launcher...
2. LEAVE THE REST AS IT IS - the missiles, code and all that can simply be as is... when you are shooting missiles EVERYONE zoomes way out anyway to avoid Missile/drone lag and so you will never notice or care...
BUT... the ships will have launchers on hardpoints/HS and they will track... and IF later itterations of code want to recode the math and launcher points so be it, I would be happy with that... or with LESS
1. Simply Put static launchers/basy that don't move or anything but simply look like parts of the ship in the places... and that could be lead for things like external customized ships with things like cargo expanders and all that...
...and Pinning/Toggle must be restored (paraphrase of Cicero). |
Raven Ether
Republic University Minmatar Republic
60
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Posted - 2011.12.04 09:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Make it happen! |
Alaric Faelen
Huge Midget Gynocology Research Bureau
13
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Posted - 2011.12.04 17:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
it's just a skin really. Whatever turrets they currently have reskinned to look different. Tracking and all that is done on turrets already, and once the animation for missile flight itself takes over, wouldn't need to change. Really- you could just have the smoke puff effect over a reskin turret, and the missile animation you have now which looks like missiles are tossed off the boat before the rocket engine ignites. The missile is shoved out the tube, aligns to target, lights the candle and off it goes. Don't even bother with effects right at the launcher- that's just a turret model and puff of smoke already written into code. Either that or slap a static graphic for launchers just to show you have them. Again, the animation we already have looks like the missiles aren't fired directly from the ship but light the rockets in space at a distance. Turn that graphical shortcoming to an advantage.....don't reinvent the wheel (turret). |
Averyia
0
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Posted - 2011.12.04 17:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Voidfinger wrote:J3ssica Alba wrote:There was a thread somewhere saying that the programming logistics of making missile turrets work is too complicated Really??? more complicated that making a game where 30K people are on it at once and playing in a persistent universe with it's own player driven economy??? wow that must be one hell of a complication! Not a programmer by any means but it shouldn't be too hard to make a static visual model of the missiles launching from location, converging a ways off launch point and then traveling to target like they do currently. I know that has been discussed before also and from what I've heard was a valid idea. So in reality they have scrapped missile work all-together? Anyone who says that "it shouldn't be too hard" when referring to anything regarding computer programming hasn't taken even a basic course on the subject. ...
This. I can't tell you how many students think that X should only take a few minutes, then have to do an overnighter because they waited until the last minute.
Lets remember that Eve is just a "little" more complicated than Hello World, and even at this point probably still has a lot of spagetti code from the early days, so redoing how missiles work would take a lot of planning, a bit of trial and error before even a semi-acceptable product was completed. |
Voidfinger
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
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Posted - 2011.12.04 21:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Averyia wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Voidfinger wrote:J3ssica Alba wrote:There was a thread somewhere saying that the programming logistics of making missile turrets work is too complicated Really??? more complicated that making a game where 30K people are on it at once and playing in a persistent universe with it's own player driven economy??? wow that must be one hell of a complication! Not a programmer by any means but it shouldn't be too hard to make a static visual model of the missiles launching from location, converging a ways off launch point and then traveling to target like they do currently. I know that has been discussed before also and from what I've heard was a valid idea. So in reality they have scrapped missile work all-together? Anyone who says that "it shouldn't be too hard" when referring to anything regarding computer programming hasn't taken even a basic course on the subject. ... This. I can't tell you how many students think that X should only take a few minutes, then have to do an overnighter because they waited until the last minute. Lets remember that Eve is just a "little" more complicated than Hello World, and even at this point probably still has a lot of spagetti code from the early days, so redoing how missiles work would take a lot of planning, a bit of trial and error before even a semi-acceptable product was completed.
Yes I feel that "shouldn't be too hard" is an applicable description here. For a team that makes the whole of this game world we play in, we have valid ideas here and for a whole team of designers and coders etc etc , it shouldn't be too hard. If that offends people I'm sorry. But I've done some programming and no this isn't Hello World by any means but for a group that does this for a living to make it happen in around 6 months... I say it should be okay to do. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
448
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 21:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Quote:but for a group that does this for a living to make it happen in around 6 months... I say it should be okay to do.
They haven't said it isn't doable in that time frame. They said it was much more complicated and time consuming that it would appear on the surface and would require some discussion and planning to do it right.
Remember expansions cover a LOT of territory, not just the things we personally are excited about. The actual number of people that would get the task of working on this one feature is very limited in comparison to the number of people that will work on the whole expansion, and they will likely have other projects to complete in that time as well.
That being said, it will not surprise me at all if we see this come summer.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Teinyhr
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 21:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: To add missile turrets the DEVs have to:
- retexture all ships with missile hardpoints (because the system currently doesn't know where to put said missile turrets if they are made). This means that A LOT of ships will have to be redone... some even redesigned because they have launchers "built-in" (ex. Drake, Scorpion, Crow, etc). And this is after they just re-textured two racial ship lines and then some.
- redo the graphics and physics of missiles launching so they can be seen coming out of individual launchers... which requires the DEVs to fool around with "Destiny," the base physics engine of EVE... which has a notorious reputation for being very fragile and inflexible.
- figure out how to keep the performance gains they have made with missiles over the years while making them work with the above two issues (missiles require significantly more processing power than turrets do and thus cause more lag... the "giant missile ball" that comes from 'linked' launchers cuts down on that problem significantly... the DEVs would have to figure out how to make multiple missiles launch from multiple launchers and turn into that same giant ball... or something close enough performance-wise to it.)
Except you're overthinking it:
1) Most missile ships have turret hardpoints, and those who don't are mainly one or two Caldari ships (only Drake comes to mind), and it's not like it's impossible for them to add turret hardpoints - in fact some mission NPC's use more guns than we can, Angel Machariels for example clearly have 8 guns while we only have 7 - should be absolutely no problem to model missile turrets and just place them on existing hardpoints, since we are talking about turrets here, not fixed hardpoints.
2) No actual changes to the physics engine have to be made, only the missile animation, so that's the graphics engine. Even the current animation seems to be correct in the sense that missiles seem to be launching slowly and then proceeding to full burn - being catapulted out of the launchers and then engaging their thrusters.
3) In situations where the "missile lag" is an issue (= huge blob warfare), everyone should be launching grouped volleys in any case. Again, this is just a graphics issue, where the missile is being launched graphically is a non-issue for server performance, it's the client that renders it, and has to do the math - every separate missile is still just a separate "missile ball" like they've always been to the server. |
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