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Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.02.25 15:14:37 -
[1] - Quote
TLDR version: The Fleet Tempest is just a pointless Rustbucket of inferiority to the Machariel, not worth the duct tape which holds it together.
First, let us compare the Fleet Tempest relative to the Machariel. This comparison is extremely pertinent with the drastic decline of Pirate Faction Battleship Hulls, such that the Mach costs almost as little as the Fleet Tempest (but has always existed in my mind, since I added it last, finishing off my carebear collection of Shiney Battleships.)
Pros
Slightly better base EHP A little cheaper 50 extra calibration
Cons
Everything else, ie everything Important, including but not limited to: Speed/Agility Warp Speed/Acceleration (although I believe that is just a further redumbdancy of description) DPS Damage Application (Falloff) Drone Bay/Bandwidth Targeting/Sensor Strength Capacitor Cool Factor
Now, in 99.9% of Fleet Tempests, you will be fitting a module, almost certainly several, which attempt to bring the Fleet Tempest up to par with the Mach in one of those ways (listed as cons). This essentially cancels out the EHP bonus and almost all of what you can do with that extra 50 calibration, as you could just fit the Mach with modules in place of whatever you are attempting to improve the Fleet Tempest with, but with a better overall end result.
Other Factors
Availability from LP stores (Does anyone even do Minmatar FW?) Gallente Battleship Requirement (Barely an issue, as it simply adds further bonus to the Mach's superiority) Higher Degree of Verticality (Admittedly Noteworthy)
No Other Faction Battleship suffers to this problem to anywhere near such a degree
The Navy Mega/Scorpion are noteworthy for their 8th low/mid slot repectively, The Navy Domi for its Hybrid/Drone Output with 6th midslot The Navy Raven for its Application (Range/Sig bonus) The Navy Apoc for making the most best apllied turret type even more so The Fleet Typhoon for its versatility and combined DPS potential And finally, The Navy Geddon for having nothing in common with its base hull (but also being all around strong)
For these ships, EHP and calibration compound upon the at least somewhat flavourful existing bonuses.
Ultimately, it all comes back to pretending the Tempest hulls has 2 bonuses, when it infact has the single DPS bonus expressed twice. This also serves to make the hull fairly pathetic without the Full Minmatar Battleship V skilled, due to the way these stack, again in contrast with the Mach, being vastly superior in this case. This is perhaps understandable on the Navy Exequror, where its DPS and base stats really stand out within its class, but a damn cop-out on the Tempest hull.
Summary: The Fleet Tempest (and preferably also the Base Tempest) needs something to make it stand out. I don't know if that is a tracking bonus or a signature radius reduction or what, but being "the barely cheaper projectile ship" is not acceptable!
Long Live CAS of the Gallente, and Glory to our Minmatar Allies! |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
147
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Posted - 2015.02.25 17:25:33 -
[2] - Quote
Complaining about a navy battleship by comparing to a pirate battleship? Of course it will look bad in comparison. Same way anavy mega is out classed by a vindicator. Let's compare a rattlesnake to a navy scorpion!
Is the fleet tempest (and regular tempest) underwhelming? Meh, more of an issue with battleships as a whole right now but they could probably be brought up some, especially the regular tempest. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1032
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Posted - 2015.02.25 18:18:08 -
[3] - Quote
A TFI will be inferior to a mach if you try and fit it to try and be like a mach.
That's why you fit a TFI like a TFI and not a mach. |
Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.02.25 19:40:42 -
[4] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:A TFI will be inferior to a mach if you try and fit it to try and be like a mach.
That's why you fit a TFI like a TFI and not a mach.
Ok well show me a TFI that is fit like a TFI, and i'll show you a mach that is fit like that TFI but better, unless you are doing something amazing with that 50 calibration |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
10
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Posted - 2015.02.25 20:11:27 -
[5] - Quote
MJD is your GTFO option
[Tempest Fleet Issue, New Setup 1] Energized Explosive Membrane II Energized Kinetic Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large Micro Jump Drive Stasis Webifier II 100MN Microwarpdrive II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Cannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5
142K hit points 808 DPS 3+24k falloff (3+31k with script) 1034 m/s cold 1478 m/s overheated
Costs 240 million if you use loyalty points |
Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
626
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Posted - 2015.02.25 21:25:45 -
[6] - Quote
You're forgetting the main advantage that the Fleet Tempest has over the Mach.
Wingy bits. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
267
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Posted - 2015.02.25 21:35:40 -
[7] - Quote
PL has used them with varying degrees of success vs. HERO.
[Tempest Fleet Issue, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
100MN Afterburner II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Medium Graviton Smartbomb II Medium Graviton Smartbomb II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II Large Trimark Armor Pump II Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Smartbombs are for firewalling bombs, though in practice bomb waves just get launched to the edges of the fleet.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
71
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Posted - 2015.02.25 22:55:04 -
[8] - Quote
As OP said he is true carebear and try to compare tfi and mach from this pov.
Two fits above are pvp related and if we try to compare tfi vs mach on the battle field is a different topic. |
God's Apples
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
558
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:20:08 -
[9] - Quote
The TFI is literally worse in every way and now it doesn't even cost less than a mach. Truly a garbage ship and it should just be removed from the game.
"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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GordonO
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP
93
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:58:57 -
[10] - Quote
my apple is way better than my bananana cause its better for making toffee apples.
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Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.26 10:14:02 -
[11] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:As OP said he is true carebear and try to compare tfi and mach from this pov.
Two fits above are pvp related and if we try to compare tfi vs mach on the battle field is a different topic.
Actually, that is not the case. I PvP a little, and those 2 fits are fine, but you can fit the Mach the exact same way, if you for some reason choose to trade out the extra DPS of the 7th turret for the second neut or SB. Then it's equal or better in every way, except for EHP by a few percentage points.
GordonO wrote:my apple is way better than my bananana cause its better for making toffee apples.
That's the whole point. It's not comparing apples to bananas. The TFI literally has nothing which makes it different from the Mach, but the Mach has a ton of bonuses. It's comparing an apple to a shoddier version of the same apple.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
71
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Posted - 2015.02.26 10:38:11 -
[12] - Quote
that's a pointless to compare these two ships.
it's the same as you to compare dramiel and cynabal with firetail, stabber. angel ships way better than fleet issue ones. that's why i don't understand why to bother. was TFI ever same effective and efficient as mach? no. current prices on pirate bs got nothing to do with ships stats.
if u don't like it leave it alone and do not include into your carebear colletion just add one more mach instead.
and btw i'm pretty sure you don't pvp nor on mach neither tfi |
Claud Tiberius
Fidelas Constans
100
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Posted - 2015.02.26 10:43:28 -
[13] - Quote
Navy ships have always been less effective than pirate ships. Not sure why it was designed this way - I guess its just how CCP wants it to be:
Capital (generally speaking) > T3 > T2 > Pirate > Navy > T1.
Lore wise, this doesn't really make sense. Because T3 ships are property of the factions and with T3 ships being so strong ( > T2 and Pirate), you would think they would give them to the Navy's. But nope.
Why the factions let pirates and corporations (T2) build better ships than their navies - I don't know. Although I can understand why it is the case in the Caldari state.
That's all excluding the capital ships btw.
Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
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Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.26 10:58:42 -
[14] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:that's a pointless to compare these two ships.
it's the same as you to compare dramiel and cynabal with firetail, stabber. angel ships way better than fleet issue ones. that's why i don't understand why to bother. was TFI ever same effective and efficient as mach? no. current prices on pirate bs got nothing to do with ships stats.
if u don't like it leave it alone and do not include into your carebear colletion just add one more mach instead.
and btw i'm pretty sure you don't pvp nor on mach neither tfi
It's kind of true about the dramiel/firetail in that it's a result of the Angel ships not having a truly distinctive bonus like other pirate faction ships. The main difference is that a dramiel costs about 3x as much as a firetail. I'm not complaining about there being better versions of the same ship, as that's what Navy Issues are all about, but i do take issue with the Fleet Tempest, as no other Empire Faction ship gets shafted like that, as i kind of explained. You can say it's "pointless" to compare all you want, but then i think the same about the little opinion you added in the last line. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15218
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Posted - 2015.02.26 11:30:05 -
[15] - Quote
It gets two utility highs and can be fitted as the big brother of the navy cane. AKA the old overpowered cane on steroids.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.26 11:33:15 -
[16] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:It gets two utility highs and can be fitted as the big brother of the navy cane. AKA the old overpowered can on steroids.
The Mach has Two utility highs if you drop a gun too. Will still have have the same dps as the FNI. |
Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.26 11:38:18 -
[17] - Quote
Claud Tiberius wrote:Navy ships have always been less effective than pirate ships. Not sure why it was designed this way - I guess its just how CCP wants it to be:
Capital (generally speaking) > T3 > T2 > Pirate > Navy > T1.
Navy are less effective, and i don't have any problem with that, but the it's when it becomes less effective *in every way*, that i begin to dislike the ship. The other Navy ships aren't just carbon copies of a Pirate ship with effectiveness shaved off. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15218
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Posted - 2015.02.26 11:44:12 -
[18] - Quote
Gaston Gaterau wrote:baltec1 wrote:It gets two utility highs and can be fitted as the big brother of the navy cane. AKA the old overpowered can on steroids. The Mach has Two utility highs if you drop a gun too. Will still have have the same dps as the FNI.
So thats one utility high not two on the mach.
You get more tank in the FNI.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.26 12:03:35 -
[19] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Gaston Gaterau wrote:baltec1 wrote:It gets two utility highs and can be fitted as the big brother of the navy cane. AKA the old overpowered can on steroids. The Mach has Two utility highs if you drop a gun too. Will still have have the same dps as the FNI. So thats one utility high not two on the mach. You get more tank in the FNI.
There's no such thing as a "utility" high slot. It's just a high slot. The mach has 8 and the TNI has 8. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15218
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Posted - 2015.02.26 12:10:03 -
[20] - Quote
Gaston Gaterau wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gaston Gaterau wrote:baltec1 wrote:It gets two utility highs and can be fitted as the big brother of the navy cane. AKA the old overpowered can on steroids. The Mach has Two utility highs if you drop a gun too. Will still have have the same dps as the FNI. So thats one utility high not two on the mach. You get more tank in the FNI. There's no such thing as a "utility" high slot. It's just a high slot. The mach has 8 and the TNI has 8.
A utility high is what you get when you have more highslots than weapon mounts. TNI has two, mach has one.
Right now you are going out of your way to come up with excuses to not fly this ship, you are the worst kind of pilot.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Clara Barcelo
Deadly Fingertips
2
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Posted - 2015.02.26 12:15:20 -
[21] - Quote
Claud Tiberius wrote:Navy ships have always been less effective than pirate ships. Not sure why it was designed this way - I guess its just how CCP wants it to be:
Capital (generally speaking) > T3 > T2 > Pirate > Navy > T1.
Lore wise, this doesn't really make sense. Because T3 ships are property of the factions and with T3 ships being so strong ( > T2 and Pirate), you would think they would give them to the Navy's. But nope.
Why the factions let pirates and corporations (T2) build better ships than their navies - I don't know. Although I can understand why it is the case in the Caldari state.
That's all excluding the capital ships btw.
Actually you're wrong. T3 does not mean better than T2 or T2 better than Navy.
T1 and T3 focus on generalization. They can all do everything just not the best at it. or thats how CCP planned it. Planning went wrong as you see that T3 still tend to do certain things really well, but they still have the option and being something else. Like a Tengu, it can be the Nulbloc railgu. But it can be fitting in a logi role a ECM role and so forth.
T2 and Piration tend to do certain things, really really REALLY well. And suck at everything else. The Deimos being a dedicated small gang brawler, the Eagle a Snipe boat, and so forth.
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Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.26 13:49:04 -
[22] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
A utility high is what you get when you have more highslots than weapon mounts. TNI has two, mach has one.
Right now you are going out of your way to come up with excuses to not fly this ship, you are the worst kind of pilot.
SO essentially, what you're arguing is that i should Fly the Navy Tempest because it's "better" at being a worse ship since it can't use a 7th turret and *has to* use a "utility" module instead. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1037
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Posted - 2015.02.26 13:59:51 -
[23] - Quote
If you fit the mach with 6 guns it does exactly the same DPS as the TFI just with longer range and less tank.
Again: two different ships.
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Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
10
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Posted - 2015.02.26 14:58:29 -
[24] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:If you fit the mach with 6 guns it does exactly the same DPS as the TFI just with longer range and less tank.
Again: two different ships.
+ 50% faster warp speed and acceleration + more drone bandwidth and bay + more powergrid, CPU, and capacitor + more scanres + more cargo capacity
.... I think he's right. The TFI is just a subpar version of a Machariel. (even if it does have more tank and rig fitting) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15221
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Posted - 2015.02.26 15:46:56 -
[25] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote: .... I think he's right. The TFI is just a subpar version of a Machariel. (even if it does have more tank and rig fitting)
Its not a mach, its the big brother of the navy cane.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1037
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Posted - 2015.02.26 18:06:36 -
[26] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:If you fit the mach with 6 guns it does exactly the same DPS as the TFI just with longer range and less tank.
Again: two different ships.
+ 50% faster warp speed and acceleration + more drone bandwidth and bay + more powergrid, CPU, and capacitor + more scanres + more cargo capacity .... I think he's right. The TFI is just a subpar version of a Machariel. (even if it does have more tank and rig fitting)
Before you just turn this into a numbers comparison, think to yourself: what do these numbers allow me to do?
If you cannot do anything particular with the extra numbers that give the mach an edge, 50 free cpu is just that and does nothing for the ship.
The warp speed is great...............if everything else in the fleet is also that fast. Battleship fleets tend not to be "mach only"
More drone bandwidth and bay. Great 1 extra heavy drone or possibly sentry. Big difference? Not really.
More scan res? Ok so locking faster is never a bad thing, but it CAN be a neutral thing. When BS scan res is already that low, the extra you get from a mach is largely irrelevant.
Cargo capacity can be a good thing if the thing is cap injected or ancillary shield boosted, however the 15m3 difference isn't even enough for 1 navy 800 and allows the mach to carry ONE more navy 400 for x-large boosters. Hardly amazing.
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Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
32
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Posted - 2015.02.26 18:47:58 -
[27] - Quote
republic fleet gun boats in general are flavorless
Stabber Fleet-- glorified armor rupture
hurricane Fleet-- pre nerf cane
Tempest Fleet-- tempest with bigger numbers..... except DPS and Salvo.
really I'd rather see all these ships slotted and bonuses for artillery and shielding, lord knows we cant fit those to the normal T1 hulls.
The HFI should just get the same 10 damage 7,5 tracking the brutix navy and harbinger navy gets and gain a mid at the cost of a low or high... for the love of god the Harbinger Fleet has more mids.
The tempest would actually be a noteworthy ship is it got these buffs as well.
and the stabber, 5 damage 5 tracking 5 lows 5 mids 5 highs 5 guns world make it worth while. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
10
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Posted - 2015.02.26 22:16:19 -
[28] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Before you just turn this into a numbers comparison, think to yourself: what do these numbers allow me to do?
If you cannot do anything particular with the extra numbers that give the mach an edge, 50 free cpu is just that and does nothing for the ship.
The warp speed is great...............if everything else in the fleet is also that fast. Battleship fleets tend not to be "mach only"
More drone bandwidth and bay. Great 1 extra heavy drone or possibly sentry. Big difference? Not really.
More scan res? Ok so locking faster is never a bad thing, but it CAN be a neutral thing. When BS scan res is already that low, the extra you get from a mach is largely irrelevant.
Cargo capacity can be a good thing if the thing is cap injected or ancillary shield boosted, however the 15m3 difference isn't even enough for 1 navy 800 and allows the mach to carry ONE more navy 400 for x-large boosters. Hardly amazing.
I think you're just minimizing the differences. In the end that's kind of a weak argument. Let's just be real here, the Mach is a better battleship. As the OP said, there really is no reason to use the TFI - however I will add, that the biggest reason I would use the TFI is that it's cost effective since I fight in Minmatar Militia. That's literally the only reason I would use the TFI. If I had billions of isk, I would fly the Mach instead. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
10
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Posted - 2015.02.26 22:21:08 -
[29] - Quote
Tusker Crazinski wrote: Stabber Fleet Issue
I agree with you on pretty much everything you said except the Stabber Fleet Issue is not just a glorified Rupture. It's probably the only Minmatar fleet issue ship with interesting bonuses that set it aside from the other T1 ships in it's class. The SFI has a bigger drone bay, bigger drone bandwidth (not much but, but noteworthy). It has a bonus to tracking speed and rate of fire - where the rupture has a bonus to rate of fire and damage. The SFI has 5 guns instead of 4 and it has no utility high slot. It's got a ton of low slots...it's somewhere between the vagabond and the hurricane. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1039
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Posted - 2015.02.26 23:11:17 -
[30] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote: You're just minimizing the differences. Let's just be real here, there are difference that make the Mach a better battleship overall. As the OP said, there are few reasons to use the TFI over the Mach - however I will add, that the biggest reason I would use the TFI (and I plan to) is that it's cost effective since I fight in Minmatar Militia, and I also just want to try out a new ship. If I had billions of isk and wanted to be as competitive as I could be in PVP, I would fly the Mach instead.
No im not minimising anything. I'm putting the difference in an objective perspective.
I challenge anyone to find a fit that ONLY works on the mach that gives it a significant edge due to more fitting space |
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