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Lloyd Roses
865
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Posted - 2015.02.26 23:28:09 -
[31] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote: + 50% faster warp speed and acceleration
You don't really need to continue here... This alone is massive.
I GÖÑ Sleipnir
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
71
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Posted - 2015.02.26 23:34:05 -
[32] - Quote
baltec is correct, TFI is a big version of Cane, and before the price drop was cheap version of Mach and yes it has better default EHP (shield/armor/hull) |
Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
32
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Posted - 2015.02.27 00:31:41 -
[33] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:Tusker Crazinski wrote: Stabber Fleet Issue I agree with you on pretty much everything you said except the Stabber Fleet Issue is not just a glorified Rupture. It's one of the Minmatar fleet issue ship with interesting bonuses that set it aside from the other T1 ships in it's class (like the scythe fleet issue, for example). The Stabber Fleet Issue can field more/bigger drones, it's the only T1 Minmatar Cruiser that has a bonus to tracking speed, and it has 5 guns instead of 4, and it has no utility high slot. It's different enough to make it stand out among the other choices - in my opinion, anyways.
yes however once upon a time the stabber fleet had enough grid for a full rack of 720s, the hull bones pretty much screamed brawls with ACs but dat tracking buff worked wonders on a ship that can dictate range on most things.
now you need 3 ACRs and a PG plant to fit 720s.... and still have no tank.
The point is it's a FLEET issue vessel, and I really feel it's hull bonus should reflect that. the Exeqour and oman Navy for example is everything a fast attack fleet issue cruiser should be in my opinion. the SFI is really just heavy tackle.
and you want to talk about openning fitting options, how about we actually let one of the stabbers actually fit arty.
On another note, I really wish minmatar cruisers were stuck with 4 guns....... projectiles already dish out crap DPS, and LOL putting nuets on a stabber...... and 2 RLMLs would require an ACR or 2
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Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
712
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Posted - 2015.02.27 00:38:06 -
[34] - Quote
This topic is a bit silly.
Tfi kiting shield fit is fun but sub optimal sure.
TFI armour fit with dual web, duel neut and mjd set up is incredibly good as a solo/small gang battleship in fw zones.
Sure you could fit a mach like that but armour machs are literally space aids. Every mach with an armour fit is an afront to space ship pewpew jesus and pilots flying them should be shunned.
This topic smacks of eft warrior going loud and proud. Using the logic posed you could argue 70% of the ships in eve are pointless compared to superior alternatives.
Why fly the tfi? because people are far more likely to fight you with less than they would bring for a mach. Its engageable. Same reason i took an old school kiting ruppie out earlier this week. The vigilant is my fave kiting cruiser but i just wasnt getting fights. Got in a ruppie and suddenly people will engage. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
10
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Posted - 2015.02.27 02:54:16 -
[35] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Boozbaz wrote: You're just minimizing the differences. Let's just be real here, there are difference that make the Mach a better battleship overall. As the OP said, there are few reasons to use the TFI over the Mach - however I will add, that the biggest reason I would use the TFI (and I plan to) is that it's cost effective since I fight in Minmatar Militia, and I also just want to try out a new ship. If I had billions of isk and wanted to be as competitive as I could be in PVP, I would fly the Mach instead.
No im not minimising anything. I'm putting the difference in an objective perspective. I challenge anyone to find a fit that ONLY works on the mach that gives it a significant edge due to more fitting space
Now you're focusing solely on the fitting space and ignoring the increased warp speed. You're minimizing, whether you're aware of it or not. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
847
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Posted - 2015.02.27 04:04:20 -
[36] - Quote
Ship is garbage it was and will remain.
there were up til now two massive fleet bs passes in this game that i remember end every other race ships experienced changes of various degree that essentially made them better than before except tempest fleet because reasons.
one of those reasons that make absolute 0 sense to anyone with brain is it is "bigger hurricane" and that just means it sucks even more.
never did i fly any other battleship just because it is worse version of its race battlecruiser ever period.
other than that ship track record in ANY eve online activity ever recorded in any way is rated from very bad,bad to mediocre at best and it still isn't enough for this ship to gain any meaningful upgrade.
but you know what it have two utility high slots that you can utility high slot with.
so good luck OP you wont get far. |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1211
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Posted - 2015.02.27 09:28:15 -
[37] - Quote
Fact is that there have always been subpar faction ships; scythe, osprey and the tempest. The REAL issue is that CCP keeps on blundering with economic/scarcity stuff they don't understand, resulting in price drops on pirate ships to a point where they get close to faction ships. Since faction ship prices are linked to LP they can't really react and adapt.
I'm old Gregor.
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Meloni HELL
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
29
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:21:36 -
[38] - Quote
Tusker Crazinski wrote:republic fleet gun boats in general are flavorless
Stabber Fleet-- glorified armor rupture
hurricane Fleet-- pre nerf cane
Tempest Fleet-- tempest with bigger numbers..... except DPS and Salvo.
really I'd rather see all these ships slotted and bonuses for artillery and shielding, lord knows we cant fit those to the normal T1 hulls.
The HFI should just get the same 10 damage 7,5 tracking the brutix navy and harbinger navy gets and gain a mid at the cost of a low or high... for the love of god the Harbinger Fleet has more mids.
The tempest would actually be a noteworthy ship is it got these buffs as well.
and the stabber, 5 damage 5 tracking 5 lows 5 mids 5 highs 5 guns world make it worth while.
You leave the HFI alone. It's a fantastic ship with great history - and that description is priceless. I kinda like how loads of newer players can't quite tell the difference between the 'cane and HFI, and why it's a big deal. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1041
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:41:32 -
[39] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:Boozbaz wrote: You're just minimizing the differences. Let's just be real here, there are difference that make the Mach a better battleship overall. As the OP said, there are few reasons to use the TFI over the Mach - however I will add, that the biggest reason I would use the TFI (and I plan to) is that it's cost effective since I fight in Minmatar Militia, and I also just want to try out a new ship. If I had billions of isk and wanted to be as competitive as I could be in PVP, I would fly the Mach instead.
No im not minimising anything. I'm putting the difference in an objective perspective. I challenge anyone to find a fit that ONLY works on the mach that gives it a significant edge due to more fitting space Now you're focusing solely on the fitting space and ignoring the increased warp speed. You're minimizing, whether you're aware of it or not.
And what massive advantage does the warp speed give you? You're a freaking battleship, 50% increased speed to warp will mean nothing, you will still get locked.
I've already debunked why the warp speed is also useless. All it means is you get there before your fleet, get killed or you warp at the same speed as everyone else. |
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps Forsaken Asylum
69
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Posted - 2015.02.27 18:23:34 -
[40] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Boozbaz wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:Boozbaz wrote: You're just minimizing the differences. Let's just be real here, there are difference that make the Mach a better battleship overall. As the OP said, there are few reasons to use the TFI over the Mach - however I will add, that the biggest reason I would use the TFI (and I plan to) is that it's cost effective since I fight in Minmatar Militia, and I also just want to try out a new ship. If I had billions of isk and wanted to be as competitive as I could be in PVP, I would fly the Mach instead.
No im not minimising anything. I'm putting the difference in an objective perspective. I challenge anyone to find a fit that ONLY works on the mach that gives it a significant edge due to more fitting space Now you're focusing solely on the fitting space and ignoring the increased warp speed. You're minimizing, whether you're aware of it or not. And what massive advantage does the warp speed give you? You're a freaking battleship, 50% increased speed to warp will mean nothing, you will still get locked. I've already debunked why the warp speed is also useless. All it means is you get there before your fleet, get killed or you warp at the same speed as everyone else.
You're out of your mind. The faster warp speed means that you beat your targets to gates. Which allows you to run, or run down. Other BS's don't have that option. With the warp speed changes having a warp speed bonus built into the hull is a massive advantage in small gang warfare.
-Badman
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1042
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Posted - 2015.02.27 19:45:46 -
[41] - Quote
fine
but this goes back to what I was saying before.
2 different ships.
Mach might be good for chasing another battleship (god knows in what situation this would ever happen) and the TFI is a solid combat brawler with a lot of different variations. It's not quite as unpredictable as the old phoon used to be but it's not easily predictable like a mach will be. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
10
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Posted - 2015.02.27 22:40:05 -
[42] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:fine
but this goes back to what I was saying before.
2 different ships.
Mach might be good for chasing another battleship (god knows in what situation this would ever happen) and the TFI is a solid combat brawler with a lot of different variations. It's not quite as unpredictable as the old phoon used to be but it's not easily predictable like a mach will be.
This isn't comparing apples to oranges. This is comparing two ships in EVE online that have quantitative values attached to them. Mathematically, and logically speaking - the MACH IS BETTER in terms of quantitative values.
In terms of appearance, cool factor, wow factor, whatever - THOSE are qualitative things that can't be scientifically tested to prove one being more valuable than the other.
You're being too adamant in your opinion. I even came here originally to defend the TFI and now I've been persuaded to change my stance. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
148
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Posted - 2015.02.28 13:45:21 -
[43] - Quote
The TFI in its current form isnt horrible, its just difficult to fork out 500m for a standard pest that has better fitting and some extra buffer. The extra fitting does help with certian fits though. Ive got a few different fits for it. But the triple armor rep fit i have is pretty fun. Can tank around 2k dps and do around 800dps. With 2 utility highs it can be pretty flexible.
Not sure, but i dont think you can squeeze 3 armor reps, guns, dual cap boosters and neuts on the mach. |
Asp IV
Apex Abyss
3
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Posted - 2015.02.28 14:22:27 -
[44] - Quote
TFE is the new winmatar noobship.Coming in Scyllla.
CCP give it more speed and target painting bonus.
PS. **** rails and Ishatarsssss |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1044
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Posted - 2015.02.28 15:29:06 -
[45] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:fine
but this goes back to what I was saying before.
2 different ships.
Mach might be good for chasing another battleship (god knows in what situation this would ever happen) and the TFI is a solid combat brawler with a lot of different variations. It's not quite as unpredictable as the old phoon used to be but it's not easily predictable like a mach will be. No, the Mach is better.
give reasons or you just end up looking idiotic.
And no, "it has more cpu" is not a reason. |
God's Apples
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
562
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Posted - 2015.02.28 23:05:38 -
[46] - Quote
The problem isn't that it's worse than the mach. The problem is that it costs as much as a mach despite being worse in every way.
Two utility highs don't matter. The mach does exactly and I repeat exactly as much damage as the TFI if you fit 6 guns to it. Did you get that through your thick goddamn skulls? The difference in utility highs is not a point you can argue. Now that that issue is out of the way we can move on. The mach is better than a TFI in every way except that the TFI has 5k more base ehp and an extra 50 calibration. That's it. There are no ifs, ands, or buts. The TFI is worse than the mach in regards to every other stat:
- Speed - Damage - Range - Warp Speed - Scan Res - Sensor Strength - Drone Bay - Cargo Space - CPU - Powergrid - Cap Pool - Cap Regen - Align Time - Targeting Range
Remember, these ships cost almost exactly the same price. Now tell me what ~role~ the tempest fleet is filling?
PS: The TFI doesn't have more ~versatility~ and ~surprise~ factor. The two ships have the exact same slot layout.
"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1047
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Posted - 2015.02.28 23:31:28 -
[47] - Quote
speed - irrelevant in a battleship brawl damage- does the same damage or does slightly more while losing utility range- already established warp speed- again irrelevant in anything except in the situation previously described: chasing another battleship sensor strength- ok now we are getting something actually relevant, it's an extremely small difference again. drone bay- extra 80 dps from another heavy/senty? cargo space- 15m3 extra, what would this actually do in a practical situation? cpu- does this allow the mach to make a fitting that makes it vastly superior to a tempest? powergrid- see above cap pool- see above 2 cap regen- see above 3 align time- unless you're in a mach and smaller fleet (or solo), this does nothing targeting range- again, any strategic relevance?
Machs have fallen in price a lot and it has made the line between the two a bit blurry now, however just saying a mach is outright better than a tempest is just wrong. |
Kinborough
Relentless Destruction The Fearless Empire
28
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Posted - 2015.02.28 23:45:09 -
[48] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:speed - irrelevant in a battleship brawl damage- does the same damage or does slightly more while losing utility range- already established warp speed- again irrelevant in anything except in the situation previously described: chasing another battleship sensor strength- ok now we are getting something actually relevant, it's an extremely small difference again. drone bay- extra 80 dps from another heavy/senty? cargo space- 15m3 extra, what would this actually do in a practical situation? cpu- does this allow the mach to make a fitting that makes it vastly superior to a tempest? powergrid- see above cap pool- see above 2 cap regen- see above 3 align time- unless you're in a mach and smaller fleet (or solo), this does nothing targeting range- again, any strategic relevance?
Machs have fallen in price a lot and it has made the line between the two a bit blurry now, however just saying a mach is outright better than a tempest is just wrong.
A-A-Are you a chat bot? |
God's Apples
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
562
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Posted - 2015.02.28 23:47:12 -
[49] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:speed - irrelevant in a battleship brawl damage- does the same damage or does slightly more while losing utility range- already established warp speed- again irrelevant in anything except in the situation previously described: chasing another battleship sensor strength- ok now we are getting something actually relevant, it's an extremely small difference again. drone bay- extra 80 dps from another heavy/senty? cargo space- 15m3 extra, what would this actually do in a practical situation? cpu- does this allow the mach to make a fitting that makes it vastly superior to a tempest? powergrid- see above cap pool- see above 2 cap regen- see above 3 align time- unless you're in a mach and smaller fleet (or solo), this does nothing targeting range- again, any strategic relevance?
Machs have fallen in price a lot and it has made the line between the two a bit blurry now, however just saying a mach is outright better than a tempest is just wrong.
I wasn't aware that the only combat in this game was battleship brawling on a high sec undock. Please forgive me; I seem to have made a mistake.
"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
33
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Posted - 2015.03.01 00:05:44 -
[50] - Quote
God's Apples wrote: Two utility highs don't matter. The mach does exactly and I repeat exactly as much damage as the TFI if you fit 6 guns to it. Did you get that through your thick goddamn skulls?
actually It does much more because of the double fall off hull bonus, so the applied damage is much higher past AC non existent optimal.
10 damage and 7.5 tracking, the volley would be slightly better than the machs and you have better application with arty.
or 8 guns with 7.5 tracking and falloff like the N'apoc has would be interesting |
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1048
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Posted - 2015.03.01 01:14:19 -
[51] - Quote
God's Apples wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:speed - irrelevant in a battleship brawl damage- does the same damage or does slightly more while losing utility range- already established warp speed- again irrelevant in anything except in the situation previously described: chasing another battleship sensor strength- ok now we are getting something actually relevant, it's an extremely small difference again. drone bay- extra 80 dps from another heavy/senty? cargo space- 15m3 extra, what would this actually do in a practical situation? cpu- does this allow the mach to make a fitting that makes it vastly superior to a tempest? powergrid- see above cap pool- see above 2 cap regen- see above 3 align time- unless you're in a mach and smaller fleet (or solo), this does nothing targeting range- again, any strategic relevance?
Machs have fallen in price a lot and it has made the line between the two a bit blurry now, however just saying a mach is outright better than a tempest is just wrong. I wasn't aware that the only combat in this game was battleship brawling on a high sec undock. Please forgive me; I seem to have made a mistake.
So you took one thing from my post, focused on that to make it look like I don't have a point.
Bravo |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
10
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Posted - 2015.03.01 04:45:29 -
[52] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
So you took one thing from my post, focused on that to make it look like I don't have a point.
Bravo
By your logic, I could say that a Lamborghini isn't any better than a Toyota Corolla because we all have to drive the same speed limit anyway. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15321
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Posted - 2015.03.01 09:36:43 -
[53] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:
So you took one thing from my post, focused on that to make it look like I don't have a point.
Bravo
By your logic, I could say that a Lamborghini isn't any better than a Toyota Corolla because we all have to drive the same speed limit anyway.
Which would be better for a family of 4 who are not rich?
They are two different ships that do different things.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1049
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Posted - 2015.03.01 12:55:58 -
[54] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:
So you took one thing from my post, focused on that to make it look like I don't have a point.
Bravo
By your logic, I could say that a Lamborghini isn't any better than a Toyota Corolla because we all have to drive the same speed limit anyway.
No by my logic it would be pointless to have a lambo when the other car is a corolla and cannot keep up with you if you go full speed.
Using real world analogies is already quite stupid when trying to make a point in a game, but if you're going to do it at least do it right. |
God's Apples
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
564
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Posted - 2015.03.01 17:51:20 -
[55] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They are two different ships that do different things.
You just don't seem to get it do you. Read my post please. The mach and TFI have exactly the same slot layout with exactly the same cost. The TFI doesn't gain anything from having another utility high, because a mach can drop a gun and still have as much damage. I listed every single ship stat in the game. With the exception of a marginal increase in EHP, the mach is better than the TFI in every single stat. If you didn't get that I'll repeat it for you:
THEY ARE THE SAME SHIP EXCEPT ONE IS WORSE IN EVER SINGLE WAY.
"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
10
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:01:20 -
[56] - Quote
They're being deliberately obtuse. Pretty much trolling at this point. No real reason to continue arguing with them. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1049
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Posted - 2015.03.01 21:22:27 -
[57] - Quote
God's Apples wrote:baltec1 wrote:They are two different ships that do different things. You just don't seem to get it do you. Read my post please. The mach and TFI have exactly the same slot layout with exactly the same cost. The TFI doesn't gain anything from having another utility high, because a mach can drop a gun and still have as much damage. I listed every single ship stat in the game. With the exception of a marginal increase in EHP, the mach is better than the TFI in every single stat. If you didn't get that I'll repeat it for you: THEY ARE THE SAME SHIP EXCEPT ONE IS WORSE IN EVER SINGLE WAY.
And I told YOU to tell me what strategic advantage those stats would objectively achieve, yet you just parrot on about these minor increases in stats without actually giving any reason why the mach would be better BECAUSE of those stat increases.
As far as I can see at this point, the only relevant advantages the mach has are:
1. Much better projection 2. Slightly higher sensor strength
And the TFI has the advantage of being beefier.
To me, this means that they are balanced against each other and are useful in different situations. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 00:09:25 -
[58] - Quote
It's pretty known an old axiom - there are no bad spaceships but enough pilots who can't fly those well. |
God's Apples
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
564
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Posted - 2015.03.02 02:04:31 -
[59] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:God's Apples wrote:baltec1 wrote:They are two different ships that do different things. You just don't seem to get it do you. Read my post please. The mach and TFI have exactly the same slot layout with exactly the same cost. The TFI doesn't gain anything from having another utility high, because a mach can drop a gun and still have as much damage. I listed every single ship stat in the game. With the exception of a marginal increase in EHP, the mach is better than the TFI in every single stat. If you didn't get that I'll repeat it for you: THEY ARE THE SAME SHIP EXCEPT ONE IS WORSE IN EVER SINGLE WAY. And I told YOU to tell me what strategic advantage those stats would objectively achieve, yet you just parrot on about these minor increases in stats without actually giving any reason why the mach would be better BECAUSE of those stat increases. As far as I can see at this point, the only relevant advantages the mach has are: 1. Much better projection 2. Slightly higher sensor strength And the TFI has the advantage of being beefier. To me, this means that they are balanced against each other and are useful in different situations.
No it's about what role the ships fill. The TFI doesn't have the speed or projection to be used in small gang. It's limited to fleet due to these constraints. And for the role of fleet it's significantly outclassed by many other BS, including the mach which is by far a superior artillery platform given its superior projection and alpha.
Tell me what role the TFI fills that you would not use another ship for and which the mach cannot do better?
"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
352
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Posted - 2015.03.02 02:38:58 -
[60] - Quote
NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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